I decided to start my own thread to continue trying to solve the mystery of why my '03 Honda died on me, started in the LEMON thread.

Although the IMA and check engine lights haven't come back on, the hybrid battery is still not charging to where it normally runs, but Honda disagrees that this is a problem.

My question to you hybrid drivers:
Where does your battery gauge typically hover?
Is it unusual for it to go down to 6 bars (about one-quarter)?

Yesterday mine started at half and went down to 1/4 on a cross-town trip. It normally stays at almost full, except on a prolonged climb, in which case it recovers to full shortly after I level out.

Because I am in the tropics, I do run the AC most of the time year round, but for 25000 miles that has not put too much demand on the car. I also often use the lights in daytime, because I drive on roads where people make unsafe passes and I want them to see me coming, but this too has never caused a battery issue.

CODES:
These are the codes stored in memory from the breakdown and the shorthand interpretations provided by the Service Dept.

P0336-CKP Sensor Range Perform
P1601 - IMA system malfunction
P0505 - Idle Air Control System
P1567 Cylinder Position Signal Circuit Problem

(We do not have an Autozone in Hawaii, at least not this island, and there are no businesses here that will do a diagnostic read for free or for less than a $100, as my son had already investigated that for his own vehicle. But Honda did provide the record when I asked.)

These codes appeared when the car suddenly stopped running. However, they have not come back for the dealer after the car was towed in. Therefore the dealer says there is no problem and I must take the car back and can't have a loaner. I am currently trying to resolve this with the higher echelons of Honda.

Meanwhile, I feel the battery is either using too much charge (over-assisting for the situation) or not recharging enough, but is not maintaining the balance. I think that if I take the car out for a demanding drive, that it will probably fail again, probably at the worst moment to lose power, so I am trying to establish whether this low battery charge is unusual for other drivers than myself.

 

My battery does go down to about 1/4 at times but if I drive it gently without using too much assist I can get it to stay full. Usualy its around 3/4.

 

Humm, I rarely use AC and my battery is usually at least 3/4 full. Normally it only gets down 2-3 bars unless I'm going up a really steep hill. On regular highway driving it usually stays fully charged or maybe 1 bar down. I drive it very gently, usually hovering around 60MPH on the interstate. If I can find a semi to draft behind then I become an unwanted bumber sticker for that truck. What's your average MPG for your HCH?

 

I've only had my HCH a week so I don't have too much experience to speak from. I drive it every day to and from work, on local roads. I average about 15mph over 6 miles, including time stopped at intersections. A few low hills. The lowest the battery guage ever get is about 60%. The ONLY I've seen it get as low as 25% so far was driving accross town in manhattan in horrible stop and go traffic. This kind of driving will eat up your batteries in no time because they just aren't that big, you're using a lot of assist every time you go, you aren't getting squat for regen when you stop, and the autostop is starting and stopping every time you pull forward a few feet and it uses a chunk of battery each time it starts. Better to turn on the ac or something to stop autostop and just let the engine run in this situation, IMHO.

The battery should be able to fully charge going down a long enough hill, like a mile or so. Pick a steep one and keep the revs high, like 3k. If that doesn't charge the batteries up to full or nearly full, I think something is definately wrong.

 

During the sub-20deg F weather times (ie 'the bad times'), my battery charge would routinely drop to 1/4...at this time, I would notice that it would be charging quite often.

Now that the weather is 60deg F and higher (ie 'the better times'), my battery goes only as low as 1/2 (lest I am fighting a 15mpg headwind or on a long incline), and is usually pretty close to full by the time I'm done with my drive. Note that this is on 50+ mile interstate trips; cross-town (50mph and below) it doesn't usually drop much past 3/4.

So basically what I'm saying is - your IMA is almost certainly not healthy.

 

With no Autozone nearby and all the constant problems... maybe it would be a good choice to invest in the Scan Gauge tool. It will allow you to view the codes yourself, reset check engine light, and view other performance data. At about $120, it's not cheap, but after 1 or 2 times of paying to have someone else read the codes... you break even.

I realize that spending more $ on this problem may not be your desire... but maybe keeping a log of all this, as well as having frequent access to the codes can help convince your dealer that your HCH is sick...

Here's the info, if you haven't heard of the Scan Gauge:
http://www.scangauge.com/

btw, they plan to release a new, improved version later this month that is specifically for hybrids (the current version works with the hybrids, but this offers improvements).

Good Luck!

 

This may have already be suggested, but if it has, I will reiterate: you may want to continue to raise this issue up the Honda chain, to regional managers etc. And especially, point to this forum and this thread as an example of what is happening to our perception of them, as a result of your problem.

I would imagine that there are people reading this who are interested in the HCH, and who are given pause by your problem. I would think that it was in Honda's best interest to solve the problem painlessly for you, so that a potential loss for them turns into a net gain.

Furthermore, I would think that your dealer would not be too pleased with having your poor experience with them plastered over the internet. So that anybody that googles their name reads about your experience with them. This may be an incentive for them to act, as well.

 

For the folks who's SOC is allowed to fall down to about 1/3 before charging takes place:
Drive with your headlights on and see charging work again and maintain it a couple of bars short of full. (Full SOC)

A month after my HCH was new the SOC would gradually work itself down to 1/3 to 1/4 charge, then green bars would come on intermittantly at best and maybe bring it back to half, then begin working itself down again.
I'm not talking about heavy IMA battery use at all.
For example from a full battery I would use a small amount of IMA on a hill, drive a few miles, a bit more IMA, then a few miles, hidden charging wasn't working so the charge would gradually just deplete over a number of short uses.
I could theoretically drive the whole tank empty and it still would only be about 1/3 charge, not using any IMA at all. (As long as I wouldn't use any brake regen-that always works)

I had my new HCH in the dealer 6 times, every time they said it was working properly. I just couldn't believe that keeping that battery 3/4 discharged for potentially hundreds of miles was normal. After all, what help is a mostly discharged battery anyway?

But this only happened during the day....night time always worked fine.

Summer time came by and it started working again.

Last fall as the temps began to drop and the trouble resurfaced.

Wayne (Xcel) mentioned this is known among some Insight owners....and in their case the issue is defeated by driving with headlights on.
I tried it and it works like a champ on the HCH as well!
Now I always drive with my headlights on. It's safer too!

 

Thanks so much everyone for telling me how your HCH's run, very helpful. The trick with the headlights is very good to know.

I did get a loaner today, after talking to General Manager. Oddly enough, no one is able or willing to give me the name or number of a "regional" manager, just the dealership manager or American Honda. But I will keep pursuing that. Right now the dealer is trying to help, but they still can't figure it out.

Things I have learned:
If a Honda factory tech tells a local dealer's service tech that the car is running within acceptable specs, the local tech is bound by that, so I would have to take up the issue with the factory.

Honda is still not getting my point that whatever specs may say about how a HCH can run fine as long as the battery has some charge, and that it is normal to have a half charge or lower--that this particular car, my car, has suddenly changed. For 25000 miles it runs with a nearly fully charged battery and then one day it breaks down and now it runs at half battery or less ... to me that would be a good place to start in trying to figure out why it broke down.

Coyote, good point about the internet. I had thought of the google aspect, because I found this forum through google myself.

Right now I'm waiting to see if they come up with anything while I have the loaner because I am going to be really busy for a few days and just grateful to have a plain ordinary Civic as a loaner. But I really don't expect them to diagnose it. They keep saying they need for the codes to recur and for it to exhibit the error lights and failure to run while on their watch, and the car is stubbornly running OK (except for the lower battery) whenever I take it in.

Oh, and I don't know my MPG. I always run the air con so I don't think it's that great.

Also, I never use the auto-stop function, so I don't put that strain on the battery. It is much too hot here to sit at intersections with the windows up and the air con off just in order to save gas by not idling, and if I rolled my windows down I would have to re-cool my car (and be hot)--so I think the auto-stop is just not a real payoff in my climate. (Hawaii, Big Island, Hilo).

 

I've had my '03 MT HCH 2 years now, and 36,000 miles. Half of my driving is suburban, with rolling hills (Philly suburbs)
Most of the time my battery is between 1/3 and 2/3. It's only full on the highway, or if I've been doing a lot of regenerative braking.
It's only been at zero once, this winter, when I kept stalling out trying to get going in heavy snow.
Also, if you use AutoStop with the A/C on, the fan will continue to run, blowing cool air for a while.
Are you sure your driving style didn't change, so you're using Assist more?
Good luck with the dealer.
Dan