http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...dd28honda.html

Quote:

"Honda says in a side-by-side, 2,500-mile drive their engineers made from Ohio to Los Angeles to Colorado, a Civic Hybrid got 43.6 mpg, while the Prius got 42.5 mpg. That's not bad for a route with a lot of severe elevation and weather changes. It was not just all highway driving, either. It was combined mileage.

Because city driving is supposed to be Prius' strength (it's EPA rated at 60 city/51 highway), Honda also did a city-only driving test in Los Angeles. The Civic got 47 mpg, and the Prius got 46 mpg. In an L.A. highway-only test, Honda's Civic got 49 mpg and the Prius got 47.

Honda's point is this: The automaker is closer to getting the mileage it says it will get on the Monroney sticker than the Prius (or any other Toyota/Lexus hybrid product).

Honda's findings were that the Prius only gets 77 percent of the mpg it is supposed to, compared with more than 90 percent accuracy for the Civic hybrid. "

PS
This is not a Prius Bash by any stretch - just interesting to report, since the Prius has been the leader up to now...

 

I can't speak for the Prius, but the HCH numbers are pretty close to what I see when driving normally. By 'normally' I just mean driving 70 on the freeway with cruise control, and accelerating at or below 2500 RPM in the city, and coasting when possible (no other hypermilimg techniques).

So I wonder if this means that the nature of the EPA test somhow favors the Prius' strengths?

 

I guess I would support the notion that for the average driver out there, the EPA vs real life mileage discrepancy will likely be greater in the PII than the HCHII. I think the IMA system is more transparent to drivers than the HSD.
That said, based on the GH mileage database, I am an average Prius driver, but I am quite a bit above the Honda test numbers. On my recent 2,200 mile road trip with a PriusII loaded to the gills, AC on all of the time, mostly highway (but some city) at around 70-75 mph, including elevation changes to above 6,000 ft, I averaged 53 mpg.
That leads me to think that Honda drivers probably know more about the IMA and how to drive it properly for maximizing mileage, and less about the HSD. Either way, I think it is quite an accomplishment for Honda to come up with the numbers the HCHII can produce, whether it bests the PriusII or not.
I assume the above test is with a manual HCH, but it is never stated. I don't think it's quite a valid comparison to pit manual vs CVT, CVT vs CVT would be better. Now we need Toyota to run a similar side by side test, and then average out the results.
Either way, it's a very cool result, and my guess is over the next few (model) years Toyota and Honda will continue to leapfrog each other as new versions will come out.
Personally, I wish Honda would issue the fastback Civic as a hybrid.

 

Hi NASAgineer:

___The Prius’ strengths are in an all city environment where the IMA’s get taken to the woodshed. Because of the slow accelerations and coast downs in the FTP75, the Prius II is in its element. The Prius II’s ICE only runs ~ 46% of the time in that test if you can believe that! The HCH-I and II simply are not designed for this slow speed, ICE-Off Cruise, Accel, and Glide. At speeds below 41 mph, a Prius II’s ICE really does shut down to run in a pure Glide/EV cruise/Regen mode depending on what you want out of it … You have to drive one on a warm day in a slow speed city/suburban environment sometime to see how good they really are in terms of outrageous FE department when driven in their element. The amount of time you will be driving ICE-Off will surprise you.

___A real world example would be to drive your HCH around Manhattan. Its FE would be destroyed in minutes by both a Ford Escape HEV and the Prius II due to their true EV capability. Drive the HCH-I and possibly the HCH-II at 55 + mph and it will take down the Prius II although by only a small margin vs. the Prius II’s large % advantage in the inner city.

___MGBGT, the real world testing above was on an 06 HCH and they only come with a CVT. Honda knows what it is doing in some respects but they do not have the superior hybrid design. They do have the superior ICE design imho. In Honda’s own real world test, they had a lot of highway driving in the mix and this is the HCH-II’s strength over and above the Prius II. The Prius II is a larger and almost 200 # heavier automobile as well … It is to bad more people didn’t push it because it is so easy to bump up its FE when inside that city/suburban environment.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

 

Wow. I had no idea the Prius II was that efficient in an urban environment. Almost enough to make me question my purchase, sicne that's all I ever drive.

Xcel, out of curiosity, the last two tanks I posted were a to/from road trip over Thanksgiving that were basically spent at 68 MPH on cruise picking up drafts that actually yielded better FE than an undrafted cruise at 60 MPH was. After reading your explanation of the Prius II's highway capabilities, do you think it's safe to say I ended up with more in my HCH than I would have in a Prius II?

 

So how does that explain Honda's 'city-only driving test' results? They had the HCH-II coming out ahead of the Prius in city-only driving. There must be some difference between the Honda city test and the EPA city test that favors the Prius?

 

Maybe honda knew what they were doing when they limited the ice off EV mode to between about 10 and 30 mph. Maybe they figured the ICE was more efficient at that speed then putting in a bigger motor and have to motor accelerate at the low speed?

Wayne, I may be biased, but I don't hink you should compare the prius IIs city driving with the HCH IIs without actualy haven driven a HCH II. You might find that what you think and what is fact is wrong. The EV mode in the prius is not free energy. It gets generated ultimately from the engine. Even thought it is more thermaly efficient it is possible that the honda's whole package is more efficient?

I still say we have to wait and see until more data is in.

 

Well I hope this is not to far off "Topic".

I still am very glad I ordered the 2006 HCH ll .

End of statement:

Happy;

Honaker.............better known as tigerhonaker

 

Hi Helterskelter683:

___Do not even think about questioning your HCH’s capabilities! It is an excellent hypermiling automobile and the GH RHMDB points this out from both the # of valedictorian’s as well as both the CVT and 5-speed’s overall FE averages! When out on the highway in a slow cruise, your ability to run in lean-burn mode makes up for all the Prius II’s extreme advantages in the city. The fact that you can FAS is a distinct advantage as well but it’s the gyrations needed to perform it that are very un-natural vs. a small change in accelerator pedal angle like the Prius II and the Escape HEV to enter into an ICE-Off – EV mode/Glide below 41 mph. NASAngineeer, your HCH-II as well

___I have not had the chance to run a Prius II in a tight or distant draft so I do not know exactly how it would perform but it does have a lot of electronics staying in synch at that high a speed. I would give the HCH-I the edge in a tight and distant draft given my very short time behind the wheel at 55 + mph in the Prius II … I hope some of the Prius II owning members will reply to bring some clear thoughts to the discussion one way or the other. I would also give the HCH the edge in shorter drives from cold. Here is the reasoning … The Prius II doesn’t hit its stride (Glide, EV mode, and an efficient ICE) until it’s warmed up like any other automobile. I took one for an ~ 7 mile segment in 32 degrees F from cold about 2 years ago and it was a huge struggle to get 57.x mpg from it. Consider the Prius II without ICE-Off - EV in the FTP75. This is where the Prius II’s FE can get ugly quick. You lose AS in the HCH-I and II as well as a somewhat less efficient ICE in the cold but because AS is not nearly the FE attribute that ICE-Off EV/Glide is in the Prius II, you do not take as hard a hit imho. Remember, you can always FAS an HCH-I or II even if they are not warmed up. You cannot do that in a Prius II while waiting for the coolant temp to climb and post O2 sensor to signal a lit CAT so that all her tricks work like they are supposed too

___NASAgineer, now that you have some hypermiling experience under your belt, do you think you could take your HCH-II back into the high 30’s instead of the low 50’s for FE? Although I would be sick afterwards, I know I could take the Accord right back down into the mid 20’s like everybody else is receiving in Accord’s in Chicago’s weather, temperatures as of late, and traffic conditions. Honda could and did the same to the Prius II more then likely. Let me put it this way. I know a well setup, CVT based HCH-I is good for ~ 110 mpg in a std. – lower speed P&G with no lights or stops. The Prius II is good for well beyond 120 with far worse traffic/signal conditions. If you owned a Prius II for a month or two and were stuck in city/suburban like traffic conditions, you would be using all of its built in tools to maintain outrageous FE as well you should. I am not saying the average untrained driver can or will do this (we know they will not) but you, HelterSkelter683, and any other hypermiler here at GH that pushes tanks would not settle for 40 - 45 mpg around town in a Prius II when 65 + is only a few accelerator pedal maneuvers away. This is why I have to believe the Honda engineers or techs who drove the Prius II for their own testing would not have optimized her in their own, quasi city test(s).

___Tbaleno, the EV/Glide mode of the HCH-II is still spinning over that ICE. The HCH-I or II in a FAS is still better at saving fuel. I do not know all of the HCH-II’s secrets yet and may never know most in fact. I will say that for the average driver, the HCH-II should beat the Prius II given the increased efficiencies Honda has given it and when looking at the RHMDB of today. For those in an all out war for every last ounce of gasoline (I know a guy like that ), the Prius II in the city has to many advantages over and above the HCH-I or II. Once Honda moves IMA to the other side of the transmission housing, supplies a bit larger pack, and a much more powerful MGSet, they will take the Prius II’s advantages to the woodshed. As of this writing, I do not think Honda has a shot at the FE crown in a deep inner city environment no matter if it’s the Insight, the HCH-I or HCH-II. I would hate to go head to head against a valedictorian rated hypermiler in a Escape HEV let alone a much more efficient Prius II in a deep inner city, 24 + hour marathon in my Insight. It would be a battle royale of course but I would be an extremely tired, sore, and quite literally brain dead individual from the amount of concentration and estimations needed vs. just the tired HSD/eCVT’er …

___Let me finish up with this. If I commuted 15 + miles in extremely heavy traffic through the heart of any major city in the US today, I would choose to own a Prius II. If I were driving a 15 + mile 50/50 mixed commute (deep inner city/highway), I think the HCH-II would be the best choice. If I were not driving the Accord on my lengthy 90% highway commute w/ the occasional 5 - 20 mile traffic nightmare thrown in for good measure, the 00 Insight (although they are not that comfortable) or the 03 - 05 HCH-I non-PZEV with a stick would be my #1 choice(s). For the wife, a Ford Escape HEV might be the right choice given her want for a larger, AWD vehicle that sits in a 10 + mile - 45 minute nightmare every morning. The RXh and HH have not yet proven themselves to be in the same league as that of the Escape HEV to date … Tom, you appear to drive in scenario #2 and the CVT based HCH-I is perfect for it! Helterskelter683, because you are willing to go all out, the HCH is perfect for you! NASAgineer, from your traffic descriptions (higher speed – lesser traffic), the HCH-II sounds perfect for your commute. There is no right or wrong but there are degrees of choice. I hope I made my own thoughts clear enough so that those hell bent on saving every last drop know what may be in their best interest irregardless of $’s spent, looks, features, options, size, and/or attributes from the various high FE hybrid’s available to us today.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes

 

I haven't had time to read the article, but what I see posted it was Honda's engineers who did the testing for both vehicles.

I can't help but wonder if it were Toyota's staff doing the testing would it be different?