i dont want them engineering the car to pass a test, I want it engineered for real world performance (fuel economy being the measure of performance for a hybrid here)

If they start tailoring the technology to pass the epa test we are giving up something just so the marketing looks better. The EPA test needs to reflect reality. This is why i suggest putting averages or some other form of actual millage that customers are getting with the car in the area in which you drive.

the first few months they could print an estimate. but after that there is plenty of data to not be guessing anymore.

again, the bottom line is that we don't need to change this just because it needs changed, There is no point in altering it if we aren't going to address the issues with the testing methods.

Why not have the larger vehicles towing a loaded trailer as they were designed to do while they take the test?
why not have the minivan loaded with 8 people and cargo
the sports cars get lead footed tests

my point is that the way the test seems to be changing seems to focus on altering aspects of the test to disadvantage hybrid passenger vehicles.

There is nothing in there that is changing that will make the test reflect more accurately the actual mileage you can expect from your vehicle.

 

It's curious... a few of you mention that you don't use AC at all, even in warm locations like Los Angeles.

First, I should say that in all cars I've owned, I've always used AC almost all the time. In the summer this is to reduce temperature and in the winter it's to keep the windows fog free where just hot air won't work.

Second, having windows open has been often shown to cause a larger reduction in fuel economy than running AC, particularly on freeways (rather, at freeway speeds). Not only that, but having windows open is very loud and causes radio volumes to go up beyond levels our ears like. Having driven a convertible for some time, I also often used AC even with the top down to keep temperatures in check so as to not overheat my body (on occasion this requires closing the top and running AC with windows up).

In my HAH, I just have the climate control set to a comfortable 72 degrees. I only override that when it's really doing the wrong thing (e.g. blasting cold air because the internal temps are 90 in the sun, but outside is still cold enough for a jacket). This seems to have a nice effect that as the temperatures drop less AC is used counteracting the temperature effects on fuel economy (which likely only works because temperatures are rarely below upper 20s on my commute during the coldest times).

Finally, the AC in most hybrids is becoming much more efficient. In the HAH, for instance, there are two modes of AC. One when the engine is going and has ample extra power for the AC and another when the engine is off that is running purely off the hybrid battery.

In any case, with all of that said, I completely agree that the EPA should be using AC almost all the time where they never used it before. If anything this will make car makers put more effort into reducing the impact of AC on fuel economy since, for the first time, it will actually make a difference on the EPA numbers.

 

I'm drifting off topic, but I'll only roll my windows down when coming to a stop anyway (free braking from that drag) or when below 20mph, so that I'm not causing unnecessary drag.

On the highway I turn the fan on that brings air in from outside (not AC, just a fan with no temp affect). Many cars, and the Prius seems to be one of them, run the fans a lot faster when you're driving at high speeds, so you'd be surprised how much that air cools you down.

In fogging windshield situations I set the air to blow on the windshield only with no heat or cooling on it, and again with the air coming in from the outside. That equalizes the temps on either side of the windshield and eliminates the Dew Point problem. I'll usually run it very briefly (the fogging dissipates rapidly) and turn it off until it chooses to fog up again. I've actually been in a very dangerous scenario in a previous Prius in Boston where it was so cold (-10F) out that I chose to use this method except with air from the cabin, heated. The windshield went from foggy to completely impossible to see through, and I was on the highway. That was scary. I was able to roughly determine where the Emergency Lane was by my sideview mirrors but I was lucky there was so little traffic.

That said it's a matter of personal preference to me. I like a nice breeze. Dry, artificially warmed or cooled air just bothers me.

 

There is another factor in the choice between using AC or not.

It's hearing loss. Having had my hearing tested at work, testing reveals I have more hearing loss in my left ear.

Why? It's from years of driving non-AC cars with the driver-side window rolled down.

Yes, running AC, and keeping your car windows closed, especially at high speeds, will protect your hearing.

Harry

 

I find so much of this conversation surprising that I don't know where to start. Running the AC with the top down on the convertible? Good lord! That's the kind of comment that makes me feel like all the energy saving we do is basically in vain.

And the hearing loss thing... I don't know, it just seems somewhat unlikely that the left ear v. right ear hearing issue has to do with which window is rolled down. The actual volume difference from one side of your head to the other just doesn't seem very big. A loud wind noise that is constant for hours at a time, which might make you turn up the volume on the radio and subject yourself to even higher decibel levels could certainly contribute to hearing loss, no question there. But I really do wonder how much of a difference between your ears it would cause.

Well, the more I think about it, the more plausible it could be. I have heard doctors say that if you have a spouse that snores, you usually have hearing loss as a result, and I suppose it would make sense that it would be fractionally worse in the ear that is towards their side of the bed. How much of a difference are we talking about, here? Also, it's a question of degree; snoring is about 8 hours a day of high decibel noise, often inches from your ear. Unless you're a professional truck driver, the wind wouldn't last as long as that, though I suppose the distances and volumes might be comparable.

To get back on track, though, it seems like a reasonable thing to me to have part of the EPA test with the AC on, and it also seems like it would be reasonable if part of the test had a window, or more than one, open so that the drag effects would come into play.

I do not think the EPA tests could realistically take into account all the personalized, individual, and highly subjective factors that twuelfing suggests, however. How would we be able to statistically determine, for instance, how many minivans are really driven with a particular weight of people and stuff in them, as opposed to trucks with a given load in the back or sports cars with lead foot drivers? There is just far too much generalizing going on there. If we really divided things up into categories and added 'penalties' like extra weight or whatever, all the discussion and focus would revolve around the amount of the penalties and what classification certain vehicles would get, instead of the important things, like the engineering of the vehicle, which the car manufacturers can actually control. That would create worse 'gaming' of the system than already exists.

 

Oh, but your left ear is so much closer to the open window, and is much more subject to loud wind turbulence than your right ear, while you are the driver.

This was first suggested to me by the guy who runs the hearing tests. It is an accepted pattern that most people have lost more hearing in their left ear for this reason. Can anyone suggest another reason why this would be?

I also ride a motorcycle, and I guarantee you that motorcyclists who do not wear ear plugs for hearing protection will lose hearing. The turbulence around the edges of a motorcycle helmet are very loud and will damage hearing. I always wear foam ear plugs whenever I ride at highway speeds.

Harry

 

That is funny, as I have done that. A nice 100 degree day, sun is out and you want the top down, but your are just sweating your **** off, so you hit the A/C to keep yourself a little bit cooler.