biodiesel
#2
05-13-2005, 02:36 PM
Re: biodiesel
Originally Posted by bigbearballs
Any threads on this? I'm suddenly very interested in doing something like this...
If you wanna talk, I'll talk with ya. I think in the long term something like biodiesel is going to be the only way to go. Once the cheep gas is gone we are gonna hafta go with some renewable power source and biodiesel seems as good as any.
#3
05-13-2005, 04:16 PM
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 284
Re: biodiesel
Yeah, stuff like that. I've really done some research today on this and I'm excited about the project of making a biodiesel car out of a jetta tdi. The kit is about $600 and they say you can get the veggie oil from any restaurant because they have to pay money to dispose of it. I teach also and thought I could make this into some type of lesson for the kiddies. Would you get rid of your hybrid to go this route? It seems extreme, but from what I've read the HCH is not all that environmental friendly. It's of course better than convential cars, but compared to a biodiesel car I think it really lacks in comparison. The mpg I read was about the same as a regular diesel, but the pollution is a lot lower. But diesel already get about 30% that their regular gas counterparts. OK, thanks for reading. Let me know your thoughts and if these seems feasible. I'm going to buy that book, From a fry tank to a gas tank, or something like that first, before I put real energy into a project like this.
#4
05-13-2005, 04:34 PM
Re: biodiesel
I'm very happy with my hybrid but yes I would get rid of it in favor of a biodiesel when biodiesel is more widely available. Going to Mickey Dee's for a fill up sounds cool but in reality it would be a pain in the butt. I like the idea of keeping polution as low as possible but the big thing for me is the renewable aspect.
They do sell real bio-diesel for three something a gallon in a handful of stations. If I lived by one I would buy a TDI for sure.
They do sell real bio-diesel for three something a gallon in a handful of stations. If I lived by one I would buy a TDI for sure.
#5
05-13-2005, 05:10 PM
Re: biodiesel
I am less of a bio-diesel advocate, the more I learn about it.
Emissions has always been a problem, and is probably not news to anyone considering this approach.
The eye-opener for me was learning that modern agriculture is fossil-fuel based, due to the high fertilizer requirements met by using natural gas. So the notions that bio-diesel is renewable, and a zero-contributor to CO2 are incorrect. To the extent that the Natural Gas is domestic, it improves the reliance on middle-east petroleum, but the same could be said of coal ..
On the current small scale that biodiesel is used, essentially scavenging waste products, it is OK. But attempts to scale upward do not seem a good idea.
Emissions has always been a problem, and is probably not news to anyone considering this approach.
The eye-opener for me was learning that modern agriculture is fossil-fuel based, due to the high fertilizer requirements met by using natural gas. So the notions that bio-diesel is renewable, and a zero-contributor to CO2 are incorrect. To the extent that the Natural Gas is domestic, it improves the reliance on middle-east petroleum, but the same could be said of coal ..
On the current small scale that biodiesel is used, essentially scavenging waste products, it is OK. But attempts to scale upward do not seem a good idea.
Last edited by EricGo; 05-13-2005 at 06:49 PM. Reason: "converting NG" changed to "using NG"
#6
05-13-2005, 05:12 PM
Re: biodiesel
Why when people talk about this stuff they make it exclusive? It doesn't have to be biodiesel or hybrid. Why not a biodiesel/hybrid?
The cool think about hybrid technology is its pretty adaptable. It shouldn't mater much what type of ICE you slap it on. As you and others have mentioned before, most trains are deisel/hybrid.
The cool think about hybrid technology is its pretty adaptable. It shouldn't mater much what type of ICE you slap it on. As you and others have mentioned before, most trains are deisel/hybrid.
#7
05-13-2005, 05:24 PM
Re: biodiesel
BIODIESEL can be made many different ways
algea can produce oils for BD
corn , peanut , etc oils can be used
where is this natural gas come into play ???
BD is made up of 20% methanol , and some lye
algea can produce oils for BD
corn , peanut , etc oils can be used
where is this natural gas come into play ???
BD is made up of 20% methanol , and some lye
#8
05-13-2005, 05:42 PM
Re: biodiesel
Hmm ... I see that the same problem exists in the diesel (biodiesel) world as in the hybrid world. 
It seems most journalist and obviously those outside of the biodiesel industry make the same assumptions?
First ... biodiesel is not the same thing as Straight Vegetable Oil ... also known as SVO or in its recycled form as WVO. (Waste Veggie Oil) Biodiesel is a fuel that is made from Veggie oil (or tallow/fat) but is processed/refined making it better as a fuel. The industry is growing quickly but it is still being done at home too.
The assumption by many is that the two products are alike but that would be akin to suggesting that ethanol hybrids run on corn oil. It is sort of true ... but everyone knows that ethanol and corn oil have different properties and are not the same thing.
To run on Biodiesel require only to fill up any diesel powered vehicle with the chemically reacted vegatable oil ... glycerin is removed as is water and trace elements of the catalyst used in the chemical reaction. In other words ... there is no conversion of the vehicle. Just pump and drive as in any liquid fuelled vehicle.
The SVO or WVO converted vehicles that were referenced in the prior posts are slightly different vehicles. See Greasecar, Greasol or Elsbett. (you can also come to our May 21 CinciTDI.com GTG. - shameless plug!) These cars (or trucks, tractors, etc) are either double or single tank vehicles that use a 'thin fuel' like biodiesel or diesel to start and only run on SVO when the vegatable oil is heated. (heat thins the oil ... take a look at the difference between Crisco at room temperature and when heated)
One of the beauties of the diesel engine is that many of the less refined models can run on just about anything that will combust under pressure. Old ships often would burn 'bunker crude' when out at sea and most US military vehicles can run on mulitple fuels. Unfortunately to get an modern diesel to run clean and efficient, the engines require a more refined fuel. Injection pressures in the newest diesels are now up to almost 30,000 psi ... it atomizes the fuel in such a fine mist that the computer monitored burn is extraordinarily complete. If you have a clean fuel going in, use it more efficiently ... then you get extrordinary mpg or power to connect to a hybrid.
As had been mentioned before ... can you just imagine what a small high torque efficient diesel married to state-of-the-art hybrid technology would be able to do. The efficiency of a hybrid in town and the steady torque and efficiency of a diesel out on the open road!
In short ... biodiesel requires NO modifications ... SVO and WVO require modifications and 'possibly' added maintenance associated with byproducts in the oils. (ie. coking of injectors, excess wear of injector pumps, etc)
For a little light surfing on Biodiesel ... the National Biodiesel Board's site is a good place to start ... or join the gang over at Biodieselnow.com that pointed me to this site.
(If you don't find enough material to read there ... then the Utah Biodiesel Cooperative list is about the best around.)
It seems most journalist and obviously those outside of the biodiesel industry make the same assumptions?First ... biodiesel is not the same thing as Straight Vegetable Oil ... also known as SVO or in its recycled form as WVO. (Waste Veggie Oil) Biodiesel is a fuel that is made from Veggie oil (or tallow/fat) but is processed/refined making it better as a fuel. The industry is growing quickly but it is still being done at home too.
The assumption by many is that the two products are alike but that would be akin to suggesting that ethanol hybrids run on corn oil. It is sort of true ... but everyone knows that ethanol and corn oil have different properties and are not the same thing.
To run on Biodiesel require only to fill up any diesel powered vehicle with the chemically reacted vegatable oil ... glycerin is removed as is water and trace elements of the catalyst used in the chemical reaction. In other words ... there is no conversion of the vehicle. Just pump and drive as in any liquid fuelled vehicle.
The SVO or WVO converted vehicles that were referenced in the prior posts are slightly different vehicles. See Greasecar, Greasol or Elsbett. (you can also come to our May 21 CinciTDI.com GTG. - shameless plug!) These cars (or trucks, tractors, etc) are either double or single tank vehicles that use a 'thin fuel' like biodiesel or diesel to start and only run on SVO when the vegatable oil is heated. (heat thins the oil ... take a look at the difference between Crisco at room temperature and when heated)
One of the beauties of the diesel engine is that many of the less refined models can run on just about anything that will combust under pressure. Old ships often would burn 'bunker crude' when out at sea and most US military vehicles can run on mulitple fuels. Unfortunately to get an modern diesel to run clean and efficient, the engines require a more refined fuel. Injection pressures in the newest diesels are now up to almost 30,000 psi ... it atomizes the fuel in such a fine mist that the computer monitored burn is extraordinarily complete. If you have a clean fuel going in, use it more efficiently ... then you get extrordinary mpg or power to connect to a hybrid.
As had been mentioned before ... can you just imagine what a small high torque efficient diesel married to state-of-the-art hybrid technology would be able to do. The efficiency of a hybrid in town and the steady torque and efficiency of a diesel out on the open road!
In short ... biodiesel requires NO modifications ... SVO and WVO require modifications and 'possibly' added maintenance associated with byproducts in the oils. (ie. coking of injectors, excess wear of injector pumps, etc)
For a little light surfing on Biodiesel ... the National Biodiesel Board's site is a good place to start ... or join the gang over at Biodieselnow.com that pointed me to this site.
(If you don't find enough material to read there ... then the Utah Biodiesel Cooperative list is about the best around.)
Originally Posted by bigbearballs
Yeah, stuff like that. I've really done some research today on this and I'm excited about the project of making a biodiesel car out of a jetta tdi. The kit is about $600 and they say you can get the veggie oil from any restaurant because they have to pay money to dispose of it. I teach also and thought I could make this into some type of lesson for the kiddies. Would you get rid of your hybrid to go this route? It seems extreme, but from what I've read the HCH is not all that environmental friendly. It's of course better than convential cars, but compared to a biodiesel car I think it really lacks in comparison. The mpg I read was about the same as a regular diesel, but the pollution is a lot lower. But diesel already get about 30% that their regular gas counterparts. OK, thanks for reading. Let me know your thoughts and if these seems feasible. I'm going to buy that book, From a fry tank to a gas tank, or something like that first, before I put real energy into a project like this.
#9
05-13-2005, 06:11 PM
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 284
Re: biodiesel
Getting the oil ready for the car does seem like a pain, I got this email from a biodieseler...
"I get my oil from 3 sources now. My first (and main) source is the
cafeteria here at hte university where I work. The other two are
privately owned hamburger joints. All 3 are happy to give me the oil
for free. I've provided them with wide-mouth containers to make it
easier. The only consumables (other than the oil itself) are the
filters. I just bought 10 3-micron filters for $3.81 each. I
pre-filter the oil through old blue jeans! When the jeans fill up
with crud, I just squeeze it out, and stick them back into service.
Squeezing them out is fairly messy, and I need to streamline that -- I
only started experimenting with that within the last month. The oil
that comes out of the jeans *looks* clear, and the jeans fill up with
"peanut butter" which I either burn in the wood stove or throw away.
I then let the oil settle for about a week, then I heat it, let it
settle for another day or so, then I filter it through 2 of the
3-micron filters. With the oil prepared in this way, I can get
upwards of 100 gallons through the filters. So that would say that my
oil is costing me overall about 7 1/2 cents a gallon."
But ****, 7.5 cents a gallon for a guy that's getting 125 mpg. Holy cow!!!
"I get my oil from 3 sources now. My first (and main) source is the
cafeteria here at hte university where I work. The other two are
privately owned hamburger joints. All 3 are happy to give me the oil
for free. I've provided them with wide-mouth containers to make it
easier. The only consumables (other than the oil itself) are the
filters. I just bought 10 3-micron filters for $3.81 each. I
pre-filter the oil through old blue jeans! When the jeans fill up
with crud, I just squeeze it out, and stick them back into service.
Squeezing them out is fairly messy, and I need to streamline that -- I
only started experimenting with that within the last month. The oil
that comes out of the jeans *looks* clear, and the jeans fill up with
"peanut butter" which I either burn in the wood stove or throw away.
I then let the oil settle for about a week, then I heat it, let it
settle for another day or so, then I filter it through 2 of the
3-micron filters. With the oil prepared in this way, I can get
upwards of 100 gallons through the filters. So that would say that my
oil is costing me overall about 7 1/2 cents a gallon."
But ****, 7.5 cents a gallon for a guy that's getting 125 mpg. Holy cow!!!
#10
05-13-2005, 06:34 PM
Re: biodiesel
Rich C
Thanks for the detailed info on biodiesel. I'm in Tbaleno's camp, looking forward to a diesel hybrid as well.
I'm sorry for misusing the term biodiesel to include french fry oil. I really did understand the difference between B100 and leftover grease from Long John Silvers. I was using the term biodiesel by itself to mean any organic sourced fuel that will burn in a diesel engine and I used the term "real" biodiesel to mean B100. Sorry if this has caused confusion.
Thanks for the detailed info on biodiesel. I'm in Tbaleno's camp, looking forward to a diesel hybrid as well.
I'm sorry for misusing the term biodiesel to include french fry oil. I really did understand the difference between B100 and leftover grease from Long John Silvers. I was using the term biodiesel by itself to mean any organic sourced fuel that will burn in a diesel engine and I used the term "real" biodiesel to mean B100. Sorry if this has caused confusion.
