Hybrid V.S. Diesel
#11
07-13-2004, 09:02 PM
Hi Innkeeper:
___I hope you made a good choice and if I had the option of purchasing any automobile available on the planet, it would be the Euro based Honda Accord Saloon with its in house designed 2.2 L iCDTi. The 1,523 miles on a single tank wouldn’t last long if I could get my hands on one. 80 + mpg w/ ~ 21 gallon capacity … Since I don’t have that option available, I am hamstrung with many types of regular and hybrid tech automobiles to choose from that do in fact emit far fewer pollutants then even the best of the Euro spec’ed consumer purchasable diesels to date.
___Now about those pollutants …
___The latest US/CARB 2004 phase in emission specs (LEV-2) that I have seen allow the following in the first 50,000 miles and then again at 120,000 miles. The 2004 phase in Tier-II/Bin2 numbers are a mix of ULEV2/SULEV2 specs from my reads.
50,000 miles/120,000 miles
LEV2:
CO: 3.4/4.2 g/mi
NOx: 0.05/0.07 g/mi
HC: 0.015/0.018 g/mi
PM: None detectable/0.01 g/mi
ULEV2:
CO: 1.7/2.1 g/mi
NOx: 0.05/0.07 g/mi
HC: 0.008/0.011 g/mi
PM: None detectable/0.01 g/mi
SULEV2:
CO: None detectable/1.0 g/mi
NOx: None detectable/0.02 g/mi
HC: None detectable/0.004 g/mi
PM: None detectable/0.01 g/mi
___The (2005) EURO IV emission specs for consumer based diesels (LD’s) which is not in force as of this writing throughout Europe allow the following while burning LSD or ULSD:
CO: .5 g/mi (this is a great number)
NOx: .250 g/mi (5X higher then even the lowly LEV2 specs)
HC: .010 g/mi (practically matches ULEV2 spec)
PM: .025 g/mi (2X to an order of magnitude or higher then any US regular gas emissions based spec)
___And about that PM. Diesel PM has tens if not hundreds of carcinogenic carbon chains in the heterogeneous stream. The PM from a SI ICE is literally undetectable from all but the best detection equipment. Only Peugeot is adding PM filters to some of their consumer based LD’s (IIRC) and with that, they are still nowhere near meeting CARB’s 2004 let alone 2007 base specs from my understanding?
___Please feel free to add what you can as the numbers I have pulled from around the net are very tough to come by and may be in error in some small fashion.
___I am also including a great read on future direction of detection and control of HD diesel emissions from a European based web site. Although the paper is a bit ungainly, there is a ton of information for everyone to take something from. Overall however, diesels don’t stand a chance of becoming as clean in the very near future as what we have available to us today from the many ULEV/SULEV/PZEV rated SI ICE’s of today’s hybrids and non-hybrids alike.
http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/autom...ity_testing.pdf
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___I hope you made a good choice and if I had the option of purchasing any automobile available on the planet, it would be the Euro based Honda Accord Saloon with its in house designed 2.2 L iCDTi. The 1,523 miles on a single tank wouldn’t last long if I could get my hands on one. 80 + mpg w/ ~ 21 gallon capacity … Since I don’t have that option available, I am hamstrung with many types of regular and hybrid tech automobiles to choose from that do in fact emit far fewer pollutants then even the best of the Euro spec’ed consumer purchasable diesels to date.
___Now about those pollutants …
___The latest US/CARB 2004 phase in emission specs (LEV-2) that I have seen allow the following in the first 50,000 miles and then again at 120,000 miles. The 2004 phase in Tier-II/Bin2 numbers are a mix of ULEV2/SULEV2 specs from my reads.
50,000 miles/120,000 miles
LEV2:
CO: 3.4/4.2 g/mi
NOx: 0.05/0.07 g/mi
HC: 0.015/0.018 g/mi
PM: None detectable/0.01 g/mi
ULEV2:
CO: 1.7/2.1 g/mi
NOx: 0.05/0.07 g/mi
HC: 0.008/0.011 g/mi
PM: None detectable/0.01 g/mi
SULEV2:
CO: None detectable/1.0 g/mi
NOx: None detectable/0.02 g/mi
HC: None detectable/0.004 g/mi
PM: None detectable/0.01 g/mi
___The (2005) EURO IV emission specs for consumer based diesels (LD’s) which is not in force as of this writing throughout Europe allow the following while burning LSD or ULSD:
CO: .5 g/mi (this is a great number)
NOx: .250 g/mi (5X higher then even the lowly LEV2 specs)
HC: .010 g/mi (practically matches ULEV2 spec)
PM: .025 g/mi (2X to an order of magnitude or higher then any US regular gas emissions based spec)
___And about that PM. Diesel PM has tens if not hundreds of carcinogenic carbon chains in the heterogeneous stream. The PM from a SI ICE is literally undetectable from all but the best detection equipment. Only Peugeot is adding PM filters to some of their consumer based LD’s (IIRC) and with that, they are still nowhere near meeting CARB’s 2004 let alone 2007 base specs from my understanding?
___Please feel free to add what you can as the numbers I have pulled from around the net are very tough to come by and may be in error in some small fashion.
___I am also including a great read on future direction of detection and control of HD diesel emissions from a European based web site. Although the paper is a bit ungainly, there is a ton of information for everyone to take something from. Overall however, diesels don’t stand a chance of becoming as clean in the very near future as what we have available to us today from the many ULEV/SULEV/PZEV rated SI ICE’s of today’s hybrids and non-hybrids alike.
http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/autom...ity_testing.pdf
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#12
07-13-2004, 10:52 PM
Innkeeper,
Thanks for this very interesting in-depth analysis! Now this thread is getting more spicy... :-) I think you have made a good choice with the TDI as your CO2 emissions are dramatically reduced. Global warming is what scares me the most. But it is still interesting to compare health and other environmental effects from gasoline and diesel.
The Swedish National Road Administration made a comparison between diesel and gasoline engines in 2001, with tests adjusted for swedish road conditions. The report seems to only be available in swedish, but here are parts of the conclusions:
Weaknesses of the gasoline engine:
- High fuel consumption leading to high CO2 emissions
- High HC emissions
- Sensitivity to starting a cold engine and to drivers way of driving
Weaknesses of the diesel engine:
- High NOx emissions
- High particulate matters emissions
Tests showed that for the diesel engine compared to the gasoline engine:
CO2 emissions are 40 % lower
HC emissions are 83 % lower
NMVOC (VOC except methane) are 84 % lower
NOx emissions are 200 % higher
Particulate matters are 500 % higher
Environmental effects
CO2: Global warming
HC: Cancer and ozone creation, which in turn affects health and plants
NOx: Acidification and breathing problems
Particulate matters: Cancer and breathing problems
The comparison is made in 2001. That is before the time of PM filters and gasoline direct injection. Particulate matters are no longer a problem for these PM filter equipped cars. I have also heard that new gasoline engines with direct injection and lean burn technology can create hazardeous particulate matter. NOx however have still not been reduced to the levels of the gasoline engine. The study finds NMVOC emissions are much lower for diesels, but does not explain hazards with NMVOC or any other conclusion from this.
Thanks for this very interesting in-depth analysis! Now this thread is getting more spicy... :-) I think you have made a good choice with the TDI as your CO2 emissions are dramatically reduced. Global warming is what scares me the most. But it is still interesting to compare health and other environmental effects from gasoline and diesel.
The Swedish National Road Administration made a comparison between diesel and gasoline engines in 2001, with tests adjusted for swedish road conditions. The report seems to only be available in swedish, but here are parts of the conclusions:
Weaknesses of the gasoline engine:
- High fuel consumption leading to high CO2 emissions
- High HC emissions
- Sensitivity to starting a cold engine and to drivers way of driving
Weaknesses of the diesel engine:
- High NOx emissions
- High particulate matters emissions
Tests showed that for the diesel engine compared to the gasoline engine:
CO2 emissions are 40 % lower
HC emissions are 83 % lower
NMVOC (VOC except methane) are 84 % lower
NOx emissions are 200 % higher
Particulate matters are 500 % higher
Environmental effects
CO2: Global warming
HC: Cancer and ozone creation, which in turn affects health and plants
NOx: Acidification and breathing problems
Particulate matters: Cancer and breathing problems
#13
07-14-2004, 04:13 AM
Hi Johanerlandsson:
___From your other post, I now see the Toyota Avensis CAT-D Diesel also includes a PM filter! Here is another very detailed Diesel testing paper that you may want to review …
http://www.solarhouse.com/resources/EPAdiesel.pdf
___CO2 is directly related to your fuel economy as I am sure you are aware. The best of the hybrid’s have a good deal lower CO2 output because of this … As for the rest of the pollutants, even the dirtiest of the hybrids (my LEV/ULEV based 5-speed Insight) has received real world emissions station testing results as follows:
CO = 0.12 g/mi, NOx = 0.07 g/mi, HC = 0.02 g/mi
___The 2001 Swedish report you quoted is to old to make any kind of conclusions with today’s real world SI ICE emissions.
___I don’t know how much better you are going to receive then 40 - 110 mpg from a Hybrid vs. a Diesels 30 - 100 mpg. HC emissions of a Hybrid are not 83% higher then any diesel. Startup of a Diesel is far more sensitive then that of a SI ICE from a Hybrid.
___And finally, Tier-II/Bin2 is the new all-encompassing holy grail of emission std’s here in the US. A quasi SULEV/ULEV base std. The Clean Diesel’s still under development are supposedly exceeding the Tier-II/Bin5 std. which isn’t much better then a std. ULEV based automobile on the road today is equivalent to. It appears that both SI and Diesel engines will and are advancing on the emissions front at a very fast pace which is good for everyone indeed.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___From your other post, I now see the Toyota Avensis CAT-D Diesel also includes a PM filter! Here is another very detailed Diesel testing paper that you may want to review …
http://www.solarhouse.com/resources/EPAdiesel.pdf
___CO2 is directly related to your fuel economy as I am sure you are aware. The best of the hybrid’s have a good deal lower CO2 output because of this … As for the rest of the pollutants, even the dirtiest of the hybrids (my LEV/ULEV based 5-speed Insight) has received real world emissions station testing results as follows:
CO = 0.12 g/mi, NOx = 0.07 g/mi, HC = 0.02 g/mi
___The 2001 Swedish report you quoted is to old to make any kind of conclusions with today’s real world SI ICE emissions.
Weaknesses of the gasoline engine:
- High fuel consumption leading to high CO2 emissions
- High HC emissions
- Sensitivity to starting a cold engine and to drivers way of driving
- High fuel consumption leading to high CO2 emissions
- High HC emissions
- Sensitivity to starting a cold engine and to drivers way of driving
___And finally, Tier-II/Bin2 is the new all-encompassing holy grail of emission std’s here in the US. A quasi SULEV/ULEV base std. The Clean Diesel’s still under development are supposedly exceeding the Tier-II/Bin5 std. which isn’t much better then a std. ULEV based automobile on the road today is equivalent to. It appears that both SI and Diesel engines will and are advancing on the emissions front at a very fast pace which is good for everyone indeed.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#15
07-14-2004, 05:23 AM
Hi Johanerlandsson:
___SI is Spark Ignited for short.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___SI is Spark Ignited for short.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#16
07-14-2004, 06:19 AM
Pretty Darn Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: League City, Texas
Posts: 387
Ok I have to have a small say in this. All this talk about NOX and CO2 in cars I have to change the subject just abit. I work at a Power generating station and at this one we have 4 units that the primary fuel is ...omg...COAL. Now we have had SCRs installed on all 4 units for NOX reduction and one has a scrubber for the removal of SO2. This is the cleanest plant in the state and one of the cleanest in the nation. I know the world has more cars than power plants but 1...ONE of the units produces between 1.5 and 2.0 TONS of NOX per day! X that by 4 and thats just this one station and it's just the coal plants it's not counting the Natural Gas fired plants. We must not just be concerned about vehicle emissions we must be concerned about all emissions! It would be great to say no more coal plants but until we find a alternative we are stuck with them. Kevin.
#17
07-14-2004, 06:44 AM
Hi Texaschcman:
___A 2,400 + MW Nuke worker here with basically no NOx, HC, PM, or CO2 emissions … NIMBY as well as unknown initial costs because of the NIMBY lawsuits can tie up a $1 to $3 Bn USD investment for years. If you cannot guarantee an expedited or at least a decent ROI on that $1 to $2 Bn, it isn’t even going to be considered irregardless of how it helps the environment
___As another data point, did you know your Coal plant emissions are probably cleaner then even the Prius II per KW or HP produced? The PZEV std. actually came from electrical production from the late 90’s IIRC and the coal and NG plants back then are not as clean as they are today given the latest EPA mandates.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___A 2,400 + MW Nuke worker here with basically no NOx, HC, PM, or CO2 emissions … NIMBY as well as unknown initial costs because of the NIMBY lawsuits can tie up a $1 to $3 Bn USD investment for years. If you cannot guarantee an expedited or at least a decent ROI on that $1 to $2 Bn, it isn’t even going to be considered irregardless of how it helps the environment
___As another data point, did you know your Coal plant emissions are probably cleaner then even the Prius II per KW or HP produced? The PZEV std. actually came from electrical production from the late 90’s IIRC and the coal and NG plants back then are not as clean as they are today given the latest EPA mandates.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#18
07-14-2004, 07:30 AM
Pretty Darn Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: League City, Texas
Posts: 387
Originally posted by xcel@Jul 14th 2004 @ 8:44 AM
Hi Texaschcman:
___A 2,400 + MW Nuke worker here with basically no NOx, HC, PM, or CO2 emissions … NIMBY as well as unknown initial costs because of the NIMBY lawsuits can tie up a $1 to $3 Bn USD investment for years. If you cannot guarantee an expedited or at least a decent ROI on that $1 to $2 Bn, it isn’t even going to be considered irregardless of how it helps the environment
Hi Texaschcman:
___A 2,400 + MW Nuke worker here with basically no NOx, HC, PM, or CO2 emissions … NIMBY as well as unknown initial costs because of the NIMBY lawsuits can tie up a $1 to $3 Bn USD investment for years. If you cannot guarantee an expedited or at least a decent ROI on that $1 to $2 Bn, it isn’t even going to be considered irregardless of how it helps the environment
#19
07-14-2004, 02:47 PM
Hi All,
Be carful when reading about 'Diesel emissions', as they usualy lump in trucks and busses and the like.
Most test you see are idle test or static tests and not on board tests and most figures are idle figures not on board (running) figures.
Besides, on board emissions test are hard to come by. in fact the Sandia research Labritories in California was real excited about being able to do on board particulate emissions tests just this year 2004, it was fairly big news..ok maybe only in the emissions community
(Sandia is a multiprogram laboratory operated by Sandia Corporation, a Lockheed Martin company, for the U.S. Department of Energy's National Nuclear Security Administration. With main facilities in Albuquerque, N.M., and Livermore, Calif., Sandia has major R&D responsibilities in national security, energy and environmental technologies, and economic competitiveness)
And what car did they choose to do the tests on. first?.. a 2002 VW TDI diesel automatic. B)
you can see it here
I honestly did not buy my diesel car for its good emissions, I bought it to save money. It just so happens it does well in the emissions catagory as well compared to the majority of what is on the road today.
Is it the best in emissions... I dunno, and in fact that answer as to what is best is very subjective depending on what your parameters for judging emissions are.
At the end of the day, I can sleep well knwoing what I do about my VW TDI emissions, and feel its better than most cars on the road now when it comes to emissions and in fact is head and sholders above what I had.
...So much for emissions, I'm saving money....
I do promise to think about the good emissions to each time I fill up, and when I bring my wife out to nice dinners with the money i'm saving in my fuel costs.
Cheers,
Innkeeper
Be carful when reading about 'Diesel emissions', as they usualy lump in trucks and busses and the like.
Most test you see are idle test or static tests and not on board tests and most figures are idle figures not on board (running) figures.
Besides, on board emissions test are hard to come by. in fact the Sandia research Labritories in California was real excited about being able to do on board particulate emissions tests just this year 2004, it was fairly big news..ok maybe only in the emissions community
(Sandia is a multiprogram laboratory operated by Sandia Corporation, a Lockheed Martin company, for the U.S. Department of Energy's National Nuclear Security Administration. With main facilities in Albuquerque, N.M., and Livermore, Calif., Sandia has major R&D responsibilities in national security, energy and environmental technologies, and economic competitiveness)
And what car did they choose to do the tests on. first?.. a 2002 VW TDI diesel automatic. B)
you can see it here
I honestly did not buy my diesel car for its good emissions, I bought it to save money. It just so happens it does well in the emissions catagory as well compared to the majority of what is on the road today.
Is it the best in emissions... I dunno, and in fact that answer as to what is best is very subjective depending on what your parameters for judging emissions are.
At the end of the day, I can sleep well knwoing what I do about my VW TDI emissions, and feel its better than most cars on the road now when it comes to emissions and in fact is head and sholders above what I had.
...So much for emissions, I'm saving money....
I do promise to think about the good emissions to each time I fill up, and when I bring my wife out to nice dinners with the money i'm saving in my fuel costs.
Cheers,
Innkeeper
#20
07-14-2004, 05:54 PM
Hi Innkeeper:
___I don’t blame you for picking up a TDI in the least. As I mentioned, if I had my druthers, a Honda Accord Saloon w/ that wonderful 2.2 L iCDTi would be in my drive right now.
___As it stands, my 5-speed Insight is EPA emission rated as dirty as the 03 Ranger XLT which was the number 1 Green vehicle guide pick for 2x4 P/U’s, dirtier then the ULEV rated Corolla, and much dirtier then the ULEV-2 rated MDX! Then again, when attempting to drive for 50% > EPA estimates, I am sure I am pushing her a lot closer to ULEV/SULEV emissions in some respects
___Good Luck and enjoy your new TDI. A friend of mine just purchased a Jetta TDI for his wife a few months ago and loves it!
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___I don’t blame you for picking up a TDI in the least. As I mentioned, if I had my druthers, a Honda Accord Saloon w/ that wonderful 2.2 L iCDTi would be in my drive right now.
___As it stands, my 5-speed Insight is EPA emission rated as dirty as the 03 Ranger XLT which was the number 1 Green vehicle guide pick for 2x4 P/U’s, dirtier then the ULEV rated Corolla, and much dirtier then the ULEV-2 rated MDX! Then again, when attempting to drive for 50% > EPA estimates, I am sure I am pushing her a lot closer to ULEV/SULEV emissions in some respects
___Good Luck and enjoy your new TDI. A friend of mine just purchased a Jetta TDI for his wife a few months ago and loves it!
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
