Fuel Economy & Emissions Talk about the mileage database, EPA, hypermiling, gas and driving strategy.

The most efficient of the Hybrids...

  #1  
Old 06-06-2004, 02:17 PM
Stevo12886's Avatar
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Gainesville, GA
Posts: 808
Default

Hi all,
Before i leave for the week, i think I'll give ya'll some food for though. Looking through the milage database you would easily think that the Insight is the most efficient of the hybrids...this may be true, but I'm doing calculations to find the truth. Using the average data from the milage database I will calculate the number of gallons to propel a pound one mile for each of the cars assuming a 160 lb. driver. That will give us one efficiency figure....but to be fair. The other hybrids all have seats for more than two....so per person who will arise victorious?

Single occupant

Civic Hybrid: 7.558 e-6 gallon/mile lb.
Insight: 7.437 e-6 gallon/ mile lb.
Prius HSD: 6.774 e-6 gallon/mile lb.

Need I go further? Suprisingly...the Prius is the most efficient per pound...I will continue no further. As you add passengers the efficiency gap will continue to rise. The HCH will become more efficient per passenger than the Insight...making the Insight the least efficient :blink: STARTALING!!

Cheers,
Steven
 
  #2  
Old 06-06-2004, 02:58 PM
Site Founder
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,623
Default

Haha. 10 points for creativity. You're likely leaving out a few variables, still. Possibly some "fuzzy math," but entertaining nonetheless! You may even be right
 
  #3  
Old 06-06-2004, 03:36 PM
Stevo12886's Avatar
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Gainesville, GA
Posts: 808
Default

Jason,
I was going to do it by BTU amount...but like i've said before, i'm lazy. Anyway...to move into a more fair ground...we will simply go for efficiency by occupant. I will use the numbers above to adjust the milage for the extra weight (using 160 lbs. per ocupant). These numbers will be the gallon amount per occupant per mile (highest wins).

#1 The PRIUS HSD!!!! at .00500 gallons per mile per occupant
#2 The HCH (in close second) at .00523 gallons per mile per occupant
#3 The Insight (yes it is in last place :huh: ) at .00807 gallons per mile per occupant

Sorry Insighters....ya'll arent as efficient as you thought. doh!

Cheers,
Steven
 
  #4  
Old 06-06-2004, 03:40 PM
Site Founder
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,623
Default

Basically what you're telling us is that HSD is most efficient for heavy automobiles & more cargo. I believe that's already a known fact. Hybrids are, theoretically, supposed to do have a larger influence on heavy vehicles like SUVs. Remember, Honda has yet to introduce a real full hybrid system!
 
  #5  
Old 06-07-2004, 07:22 AM
Hot_Georgia_2004's Avatar
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 1,797
Default

....And we have yet to see either an HCH or HSD obtain +110MPG...and driving around the speed limits at that! B)
 
  #6  
Old 06-07-2004, 09:06 AM
xcel's Avatar
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 2,567
Default

Hi Stevo12886:

___And another take on the various Hybridsí efficiency. In other words, is the glass half empty or is it half full?

Curb weight w/ 200 pound driver:

Prius II: 3,090 pounds
Prius I: 2,965 pounds
HCH Manual: 2,884 pounds
Insight Manual: 2,080 pounds

Average MPG per the Real Mileage Database (this morning):

Prius II: 48.3 mpg
Prius I: 48.3 mpg
HCH Manual: 46.9 mpg
Insight Manual: 66.9 mpg

Average mpg/pound:

Honda Insight: .0322 mpg/pound
Prius I: .0163 mpg/pound
HCH: .0163 mpg/pound
Prius II: .0156 mpg/pound

___I would say that either the Prius II needs to lose a little weight or that there are ďLies, **** Lies, Ö and StatisticsĒ! I did take some liberties by rearranging the data to show the Insight in a much more positive light of course

___Overall, the Atkinsonized 1.5 L of the 04 Prius w/ HSD is one darn efficient setup given the Priusí weight but at the expense of being the slowest car in the Toyota lineup. It is too bad Toyota didnít also place the atkinsonized PZEV 1.5 L w/ its entire 76 HP without HSD in a 2,235 # Echo (including driver) w/ a stick for ~ similar performance but at a much more affordable $10 - $13K price instead of the $26 - $30K + prices we are seeing Prius IIís go out for today. I know, I know. The lux additions and larger size make it worth the price for many but $16K + worth it? An EPA estimate of 55 - 60 + mpg on the highway would be a given using a slightly taller fifth gear in an Echo w/ the Priusí Atkinsonized ICE imho. I am considering the Echoís much lower weight and smaller frontal area even with the higher Cd. EPA City estimates of the Echo wouldnít be near that of the Prius II but I bet you would see an actual EPA city estimate as well as reachable 40 mpg (the Echo already has a 35/43 city/hwy EPA estimate w/ the 108 HP - 1.5 L) vs. the almost unreachable EPA city estimate of 60 mpg of the Prius II? Wouldnít that turn your head if 100,000 + atkinsonized and PZEV based Echoís were sold vs. 50,000 + Prius IIís and they both received similar combined mileage? Which overall solution would be better for the environment? 50,000 Prius II PZEVís at $26K + or 100,000 + Echo PZEVís at $10 - $13K? The same with the Honda lineup. Why they didnít simply drive up the final drive ratios of the EX/LX/DX in the Civic lineup for even more hwy mileage yet still maintain similar performance with lower costs in comparison to that of the Hybridís is beyond me?

___If we are going to lose performance to drive a Hybrid (this year anyway?), why not just take the performance away from a std. ICE propelled automobile and receive close to Hybrid type mileage but at a price much more affordable to the average citizen?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email protected]
 
  #7  
Old 06-08-2004, 05:47 AM
Enthusiast
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 2
Default

A thought or two:

The discussion seems to be on instantaneous efficiency, not long term. One appealing thing to me about the Prius is the integrated ideas of not even starting the ICE until already at high RPMs, the thermos to make sure it starts warm, planetary gear intead of transmission, etc. etc. Many of these things not only improve efficiency, but also decrease wear and tear on ICE, almost certainly more than the Echo proposed above, perhaps more than a Honda hybrid. The more I look at the Prius, the more I see a completely new vehicle system, well thought out and implemented.

Also, if you want to look at mpg alone, or mpg / vehicle weight, it would seem appropriate to include motorcycles, particulary one with an extra gas tank strapped on. The Insight is, by some measures, very efficient, but does so at expense of functionality and broader use. Another way the Prius appeals to me is that it raises technology to adapt to the desires of the user, not forcing people to sacrifics unnecessarilly. If I wanted to be real eco-friendly, I'd just go live in a tent and not own a car at all. OK, maybe a Segway recharged by solar power...

Hmm... that became more of a rant than I initially intended. Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, I don't own any hybrid right now, but after initially being interested all three, I am currently planning on joining the long waiting listsd for a Prius.

Tau Zero

P.S. If we are arguing so much over the comparative advantages, then I'd put forth that the difference between them is much less than the difference from traditional cars. A winner either/any way.
 
  #8  
Old 06-08-2004, 09:47 AM
xcel's Avatar
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 2,567
Default

Hi TauZero:

___In regards to the wear and tear, any IMA, HSD, or std. battery start is not good no matter what care was taken to decrease the friction involved in the process. Sure the Pack starts are great because of the 1,000 RPM before initiating combustion but remember there are tens of thousands of automobiles with well over 200,000 miles that have done just fine without an IMA/EV mode start and that number isnít shrinking by any measure just yet.

___The reason I brought up the Echo as just one example is that 1. It is available 2. It is light enough to take the Prius IIís block without a mod for high fuel economy (the Prius and Echo 1.5 L blocks are the for all intents and purposes when looking at Bore and Stroke) and 3. It wouldnít cost $26K +. More of the masses driving a PZEV of whatever make would reduce SMOG pollutants by a far greater margin then the number of Priusí or Hybridís in general sold so far. The GHG issue is taken care of with an Echo based hyper miler receiving close to the combined mileage of the Prius.

___As for motorcycles, most donít receive much above 50 - 60 mpg either. At least I remember my 1990 CBR 600F receiving 56 mpg until a drunk 14 year old took both the bike and myself out with one fell swoop. That mileage was received while I babied that small but fast rice rocket too. Strap an extra tank onto a 5 gallon, 60 mpgíer and you get a 500 - 600 mile range at best into the elements no less. Hybrids are already capable of 600 - 1,400 miles on a tank and do protect one from the elements and such. A motorcycle would look great in the mpg/pound comparison however.

___You most certainly do give up something to drive an Insight. It is a harsh riding, fast handling, high user feedback ride of at an order of magnitude above anything else available right now. When driving back and forth to work with one occupant, I have to carry around 1 empty seat instead of hauling around 3 empty ones The Corolla is the local 4-door family mover now.

___There is a market for everything but $26K + (as of late) so that you can be green? I can pick up a Ford Focus PZEV for ~ $11K although with a loss of at least 60 mpg on the highway compared to the Insight The winner will be all of us if and when PZEVís become widely available in most everything that we drive. That wonít happen with a Hybrid costing as much as they do today unfortunately.

Non-hybrid PZEVís

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email protected]
 
  #9  
Old 06-08-2004, 10:44 AM
johanerlandsson's Avatar
Active Enthusiast
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Posts: 164
Default

Wayne,

I like your sound thinking. May I take this one step further?

What is best for the environment, 100 000 Echo's or taking away the need to commute to work by car for 100 000 people?

Maybe we should start a new thread here?
 
  #10  
Old 06-09-2004, 12:44 AM
xcel's Avatar
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 2,567
Default

Hi Johanerlandsson:

___Yes, Diesel Hybrid buses w/ particulate traps and NOx adsorberís whether that is of the ammonia injection type or the new fangled HW only variants. Boy do I wish a bus or better yet, a train with hundreds and hundreds of passengers went to my place of work

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email protected]
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: The most efficient of the Hybrids...


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.