Fuel Economy & Emissions Talk about the mileage database, EPA, hypermiling, gas and driving strategy.

Real Mileage Database

  #1  
Old 03-12-2004, 05:09 AM
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Jason,
Several people typically gather around my 04 Prius at work during lunch break. They always ask what mileage I get. They also ask what other Hybrids are available and how thier mileage compares. I just give them your website and tell them to look at the Real Mileage Database.

I have gotten some feedback from them and some of them get the wrong impression because they don't dig in to look at the data, just the averages. Here are a few examples:

"Looks like you got screwed. You could have gotten an Insight and gotten twice the MPG."

My reply:
The Insights typically do get better mileage, but I need a car that can carry more than two people.

Thier Reply:
"I didn't realize that the Insight was a 2 seater."

"Why on earth did you buy the new Prius HSD when you could have gotten a used Prius TSD and still get 8 MPG better."

My Reply:
The Prius HSD typically gets about 2-4 MPG better MPG than the THD. There are probably not enough data yet to show a good average expectation.


"Why did you take the risk on new technology when you could have gotten a Civic VX? The Civic VX gets 64 MPG!"

My Reply:
I don't know why the Civic VX gets such good MPG. I don't believe that the EPA estimates compare to Prius. There are probably not enough data yet to show a good average expectation.


In every case, I always tell them that they need to look at the data carefully and read the notes. I tell them to research the cars before coming to any conclusion. The funny thing is that the person who commented above about the Insight had visited both the Toyota and Honda Websites. Even though he had read about the Insight thoroughly on the Honda website and even viewed the Honda comparison of Insight to Prius, nowhere was it mentioned that Insight was a 2 seater!

By the way, I love the monthly MPG graph you just added!

Dan
04 Silver #7
EMAXX
3900+ Miles
LMPG 49.5
LMPGPPA 5*49.5. = 247.5 (Lifetime Miles Per Gallon Per Persons Accommodatable)
 
  #2  
Old 03-12-2004, 07:37 AM
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Hi Dan:

___Very well written post Ö

___A few items to add for comments directed your way. First off, the 04 Prius is a hell of an automobile that has amenities the Insight has never and will never have. Not only have your co-workers discovered that the Insight is a 2 seater, it isnít even made anymore. There wonít be any more Insightís made for the 2004 MY anyway. It was built for just one purpose in mind and as you know, it was to excel at fuel economy. There is no way an Insight could be built for < $30,000 - $50,000 given a mostly aluminum construction and low volume production line. The 01-03 Prius and the Honda VX arenít made anymore either. The mileage numbers posted from the Insighterís shown are from some of the best mileage drivers in the world. No one drives like an Insight driver pushing the fuel economy envelope that I know of. A few exceptions abound I am sure but not like a high mileage Insighter? I just donít see them in my 750,000 miles of travel around the Chicagoland in my lifetime. Lastly, 45 mpg for the Prius is a heck of an average considering its size and amenities. If someone complains about that, they only need to look at there own real world averages.

___As for the 01-03 Priusí and one of the VXís great mileage, look who was driving at least one of each of them. Again, you are looking at one of the best mileage drivers in the world with years of experience at pushing that envelope. The VX was a specialty high mileage type Honda from way back. Many of its fuel saving economies technologies are still in use in the Insight, Prius, and HCH.

___Lastly, it wonít be long and your own real world average will be up in the 52 - 55 lmpg range by all appearances. Not many can say that either

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email protected]
 
  #3  
Old 03-12-2004, 09:30 AM
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Thank you for your concern.

First of all, I do know about a few problems concerning the current data, and will mention how I propose to fix them.

First, there are people who have not "switched over" to the new interface, which asks for best/worst and (not recommended) a LMPG. Cars like the following: https://www.greenhybrid.com/explore/mileage...ails.php?cid=50 therefore do not adequately display mileage trends, and I have resorted to personal messaging these individuals to nicely ask if they would please update their car. I had one person respond negatively, however, who thought this was an unfriendly guesture. I hope that once the changeover is complete, there will be no more "drama."

Secondly, the sample size is too small for some cars. The following car: https://www.greenhybrid.com/explore/mileage...ails.php?cid=70 has but 0.7 gallons worth of data. That's the ONLY Civic. Besides having the same "problem" as mentioned above, their sample size makes them look like a higher-mileage-vehicle than the Prius. I initially had a sample size bar for each of the cars on the main graph, but since I can't quite put a 100 million value for non-hybrids, I took it off Would it help if I added a transparent bar over the current ones with, perhaps, miles driven as a sample size?

Lastly, I think most of these problems will iron themselves out over time. Once there is more traffic and more data, the averages will become REAL averages.

Is there anything else I can do?
 
  #4  
Old 03-12-2004, 09:45 AM
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Before I read this thread, I, too, had begun asking some people to update their mileage data so that they can take advantage of the new features.

Some features may not have been available at the time they put in their data so it now seems to be in the wrong place.

For example they may have originally put in their highest mileage trip in the tankful area, because at the time, that seemed the logical place to put it.

I hope people are not put off by that request. Rather I hope they see the value to the community as a whole.
 
  #5  
Old 03-12-2004, 09:53 AM
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Jason,
You are doing a fine job. The only thing I would suggest is that on the summary listing, under Model, include the year, transmission type, body style, the number of passengers and EPA estimated MPG.

For Example:

2004 Toyota Prius HSD
CVT, 5 dr, 5 pass
61 City, 51 Hwy

or

2004 Honda Insight
Manual, 3 dr, 2 pass
60 City, 66 Hwy

This way, you can compare apples to apples and have some idea how the car is performing with respect to EPA estimates. If someone sees 106 MPG, but a 66 MPG estimate, they will probably at least question the data. Right now they have no reason to question anything. After all, it is the "REAL MILEAGE" database. From the name it sounds like someone went through the trouble of verifying the data.

Dan
 
  #6  
Old 03-12-2004, 01:35 PM
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Hi Jason:

___You E-Mailed the wrong guy. Rickís mileage over the last 2 years is exactly what he receives and posted. I have seen the picís of his dash. The two you need to go after are the 106 mpg Insight and the 75 mpg Prius. These are both one-off segments and are not representative of lmpg or even year over year mpg averages.

___Krousdb, the Insight and most other std. ICE automobiles are quite capable of crushing EPA estimates. The 04 Prius in particular isnít given it travels ~ Ĺ the EPA City loop on the pack. 100 + mpg out of an Insight in warmer temperatures is practically a given if you drive with the techniques already posted around the net time and time again. A low to high 80ís average is quite doable over a one year time frame in many warmer locales especially. The 04 Prius looks like it is going to top out around 60 - 65 mpg lmpg or year over year with a high mileage driver behind the windscreen. Maybe a bit more from someone in a warmer climate possibly?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email protected]
 
  #7  
Old 03-12-2004, 01:41 PM
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Xcel,

Rick posted hi's and lo's if you'll look at his tank information. Wayne, with the 75mpg Prius knows about his data -- just hasn't responded lately about changing it to a Best trip -- I may do it for him.

So you know, I'm attempting to curve the mileage-month graph if it starts acting up.
 
  #8  
Old 03-12-2004, 02:24 PM
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Hi Jason:

___All I am saying is that you attempted to tell someone with the experience and skill the likes of Mario Andretti and/or Jeff Gordon on how to input data about racing CART/INDY or NASCAR. This is the one guy providing actual real world capabilities and techniques as well as the exact person everyone here should listen to in particular. His LMPG is 88.x something as of this writing and this includes the first 40,000 + miles when he was just an enthusiast looking for more Ö I do hope there is a lmpg method to the madness as that is how he posted his lmpg into InsightCentral.netís own lmpg database.

___I am still a bit confused as for tank data and such for other automobiles myself. I entered in the MDXís tank high but it is no where to be found? I will try again in a few days to see. I canít wait to throw in a decent run on the 03 Ranger XLT when it warms up and I get over 5,000 miles on it. It only has 500 right now but wait until I hit a nice 36 - 38 mpg run over 195 miles in it later this summer Ö At least I hope that is what it is capable of

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email protected]
 
  #9  
Old 03-12-2004, 02:29 PM
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xcel,

He can input his LMPG in the database, which will override any data he has entered, though it will still be visible. This would probably be his best route, as he can also insert his 40k odometer reading and it will all calculate out fine. No one has used a LMPG yet because you'd see it -- it will have an asterick.

Secondly, it's set up right now to only show on the main page cars that have actual tank or LMPG data. If you enter either, it will show up. The problem is that if I DO show that XLT on the main page, every column will be blank, and the only information it will have is the mileage for that one trip on the detailed page.

As a test, create a car named "test" and create a LMPG/odometer reading.
 
  #10  
Old 03-12-2004, 02:51 PM
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Hi Jason:

___I did input the override lmpg in the other night and it did override the data. Unfortunately, it didnít look right afterwards so I replaced the data I had in it previously. This is why you are seeing the same 78.0 lmpg without the override. I am not really sure what to include and I have a 10 - 14 day commuting schedule coming up which will change it yet again? The Insighterís have lmpg shown on one of the game gauges and itís too bad there isnít a place to input this into your database and display properly. It isnít something that needs to be calculated, it is a part of the Insight that shows when looking at the odometer screen. I donít know how else to explain it other then it is usually accurate to within 1 or 2% of actual either way tank after tank and it shows up whenever you glance at the odometer Ö What else can I say. If you car doesnít have an odometer, you would say what the #$*%? In an Insight, you may as well say that because it is in the odometer screen. I believe you might be able to not show the lmpg by programming it but that would be like programming your car not to show segment or tank mileage or the odometer itself Ö

___As for the MDX, I have no idea where that data entry went? I want to enter in the Corolla as well since its starting to warm up and 50 mpg is not out of the question in anther month or two Ö

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___[email protected]
 

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