09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
#1
02-15-2017, 09:32 PM
09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
12v battery is dead. Tried to jump start it but didn't work. Wrench light is on. Also showed "STOP NOW" message. Scanned it and got a P0AE1 error. Is it a HV battery issue or circuit issue?
#2
02-16-2017, 03:53 PM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
I recently helped someone with an 09 Mariner. They let it sit for 6 months while they were elsewhere (retiree spends their summers in WI, winters in AZ). Their HV battery discharged to 250V (well below nominal - completely dead). Your HV battery is likely similarly severely discharged to the point that the HV battery can't supply the current necessary to spin the ICE without potentially damaging the battery.
Owner's manual states that the 12V should be disconnected during storage for extended periods or HV battery damage may occur.
It is my understanding that the dealer has a special Ford charger that can charge the HV battery. Unfortunately, in the case I mentioned, the dealership charged him $1000 for diagnostics and were unable to charge it. I suspect gross ineptitude on their part. They told him he needed a new battery for $4000 (64K miles, still under warranty - denied).
I charged the 12V, disassembled the HV battery, charged it, and he was good to go. I also installed a harness and provided a power supply that will allow him to charge it externally if needed.
Get the 12V replaced yourself. KNOW that it's in good shape. Call around and get hold of a dealer that KNOWS the FEH. Too many don't have any experience with it.
Owner's manual states that the 12V should be disconnected during storage for extended periods or HV battery damage may occur.
It is my understanding that the dealer has a special Ford charger that can charge the HV battery. Unfortunately, in the case I mentioned, the dealership charged him $1000 for diagnostics and were unable to charge it. I suspect gross ineptitude on their part. They told him he needed a new battery for $4000 (64K miles, still under warranty - denied).
I charged the 12V, disassembled the HV battery, charged it, and he was good to go. I also installed a harness and provided a power supply that will allow him to charge it externally if needed.
Get the 12V replaced yourself. KNOW that it's in good shape. Call around and get hold of a dealer that KNOWS the FEH. Too many don't have any experience with it.
#5
02-17-2017, 07:54 AM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
I recently helped someone with an 09 Mariner. They let it sit for 6 months while they were elsewhere (retiree spends their summers in WI, winters in AZ). Their HV battery discharged to 250V (well below nominal - completely dead). Your HV battery is likely similarly severely discharged to the point that the HV battery can't supply the current necessary to spin the ICE without potentially damaging the battery.
Owner's manual states that the 12V should be disconnected during storage for extended periods or HV battery damage may occur.
It is my understanding that the dealer has a special Ford charger that can charge the HV battery. Unfortunately, in the case I mentioned, the dealership charged him $1000 for diagnostics and were unable to charge it. I suspect gross ineptitude on their part. They told him he needed a new battery for $4000 (64K miles, still under warranty - denied).
I charged the 12V, disassembled the HV battery, charged it, and he was good to go. I also installed a harness and provided a power supply that will allow him to charge it externally if needed.
Get the 12V replaced yourself. KNOW that it's in good shape. Call around and get hold of a dealer that KNOWS the FEH. Too many don't have any experience with it.
Owner's manual states that the 12V should be disconnected during storage for extended periods or HV battery damage may occur.
It is my understanding that the dealer has a special Ford charger that can charge the HV battery. Unfortunately, in the case I mentioned, the dealership charged him $1000 for diagnostics and were unable to charge it. I suspect gross ineptitude on their part. They told him he needed a new battery for $4000 (64K miles, still under warranty - denied).
I charged the 12V, disassembled the HV battery, charged it, and he was good to go. I also installed a harness and provided a power supply that will allow him to charge it externally if needed.
Get the 12V replaced yourself. KNOW that it's in good shape. Call around and get hold of a dealer that KNOWS the FEH. Too many don't have any experience with it.
#6
02-17-2017, 08:58 AM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
You have to:
remove safety plug
remove the battery (there are screws on the side that can't be removed to pull the cover when it's in the car)
Remove the cover (T30 security bit?)
remove the main relay
remove the shroud over the relay.
At this point, you will have access to the pre-relay HV terminals. With the safety plug in, you can get voltage readings at these terminals.
It is also a good idea to probe the visible portions of the sticks with a VM, poking through the shrink, to establish that they are all uniformly discharged. If they are all the same voltage (within .03V), it's a very good sign that the battery is likely fine.
An LPC-150-350 LED PSU works in a voltage range that will charge the battery. it will need about 4 hours of charge to ensure that the battery has sufficient charge to fire the ICE. 8-12 hours would be better. I wouldn't go any longer than 12 hours unless you're moving a lot of air over the pack with a box fan or similar.
remove safety plug
remove the battery (there are screws on the side that can't be removed to pull the cover when it's in the car)
Remove the cover (T30 security bit?)
remove the main relay
remove the shroud over the relay.
At this point, you will have access to the pre-relay HV terminals. With the safety plug in, you can get voltage readings at these terminals.
It is also a good idea to probe the visible portions of the sticks with a VM, poking through the shrink, to establish that they are all uniformly discharged. If they are all the same voltage (within .03V), it's a very good sign that the battery is likely fine.
An LPC-150-350 LED PSU works in a voltage range that will charge the battery. it will need about 4 hours of charge to ensure that the battery has sufficient charge to fire the ICE. 8-12 hours would be better. I wouldn't go any longer than 12 hours unless you're moving a lot of air over the pack with a box fan or similar.
Last edited by S Keith; 02-17-2017 at 09:42 AM.
#7
02-18-2017, 04:53 AM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
It is my understanding that the dealer has a special Ford charger that can charge the HV battery. Unfortunately, in the case I mentioned, the dealership charged him $1000 for diagnostics and were unable to charge it. I suspect gross ineptitude on their part. They told him he needed a new battery for $4000 (64K miles, still under warranty - denied).
I charged the 12V, disassembled the HV battery, charged it, and he was good to go. I also installed a harness and provided a power supply that will allow him to charge it externally if needed.
Get the 12V replaced yourself. KNOW that it's in good shape. Call around and get hold of a dealer that KNOWS the FEH. Too many don't have any experience with it.
I charged the 12V, disassembled the HV battery, charged it, and he was good to go. I also installed a harness and provided a power supply that will allow him to charge it externally if needed.
Get the 12V replaced yourself. KNOW that it's in good shape. Call around and get hold of a dealer that KNOWS the FEH. Too many don't have any experience with it.
#8
02-18-2017, 08:06 AM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
Bill,
I have a DC power supply capable of charging at up to 500V, but as I stated, it required partial disassembly of the battery to access "hot" terminals. Sanyo did an amazing job of making it almost impossible to come in contact with live terminals.
I was told by a tech from the WI dealer from which the car was purchased (Mariner owner is friends/neighbors with the dealership owner) that the Ford charger plugs into the main port and energizes the main relay to allow charging. This requires almost no disassembly. This is a rare issue, so there are only a few of these chargers in existence, and they shuffle them around as needed. Unfortunately, I believe the technician here in AZ was incompetent in this regard, or there was a malfunction with the equipment.
I merely applied the methods used by Honda hybrid owners for years.
Steve
I have a DC power supply capable of charging at up to 500V, but as I stated, it required partial disassembly of the battery to access "hot" terminals. Sanyo did an amazing job of making it almost impossible to come in contact with live terminals.
I was told by a tech from the WI dealer from which the car was purchased (Mariner owner is friends/neighbors with the dealership owner) that the Ford charger plugs into the main port and energizes the main relay to allow charging. This requires almost no disassembly. This is a rare issue, so there are only a few of these chargers in existence, and they shuffle them around as needed. Unfortunately, I believe the technician here in AZ was incompetent in this regard, or there was a malfunction with the equipment.
I merely applied the methods used by Honda hybrid owners for years.
Steve
#9
02-19-2017, 06:20 AM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
Bill,
I have a DC power supply capable of charging at up to 500V, but as I stated, it required partial disassembly of the battery to access "hot" terminals. Sanyo did an amazing job of making it almost impossible to come in contact with live terminals.
I was told by a tech from the WI dealer from which the car was purchased (Mariner owner is friends/neighbors with the dealership owner) that the Ford charger plugs into the main port and energizes the main relay to allow charging. This requires almost no disassembly. This is a rare issue, so there are only a few of these chargers in existence, and they shuffle them around as needed. Unfortunately, I believe the technician here in AZ was incompetent in this regard, or there was a malfunction with the equipment.
I merely applied the methods used by Honda hybrid owners for years.
Steve
I have a DC power supply capable of charging at up to 500V, but as I stated, it required partial disassembly of the battery to access "hot" terminals. Sanyo did an amazing job of making it almost impossible to come in contact with live terminals.
I was told by a tech from the WI dealer from which the car was purchased (Mariner owner is friends/neighbors with the dealership owner) that the Ford charger plugs into the main port and energizes the main relay to allow charging. This requires almost no disassembly. This is a rare issue, so there are only a few of these chargers in existence, and they shuffle them around as needed. Unfortunately, I believe the technician here in AZ was incompetent in this regard, or there was a malfunction with the equipment.
I merely applied the methods used by Honda hybrid owners for years.
Steve
#10
02-19-2017, 06:57 AM
Re: 09 FEH sit for about a year, can't jump star
Of course I used a timed charge. 0.1C for 16 hours would be excessive and likely generate too much heat since there's no active cooling (I've seen 130°F temps in low current NiMH charging when there's no flow in the case). An attempt to rely on a dV signal from 250 cells in series would be absurd if even possible. In my experience dV is only truly reliable at or above 1C, and that would require in the vicinity of 2000W of charge power. I don't think you'll find a NiMH charger outside of an EV1 or RAV4 that can handle NiMH charging needs for that many cells.
Honestly, what's your point? That's a silly question. Are you a Tech that has taken offense to my comments?
It was not my goal to fully charge the battery given that they were all from a 0% SoC. The sticks accessible from the top of the pack were all with .01V of each other and <1V/cell indicating uniform discharge throughout the pack. I did multiple timed discharges of decreasing current totaling less than 6000mAh of input. I monitored temperature of the pack frequently with an IR gun and FLIR One IR camera. Nothing ever got over 78°F. Given the inefficiency inherent in low current charging, it still wasn't near full. As I approached exceeded a computed 70% SoC, I limited the charge to 200mA to minimize the potential for heat.
Frankly, all of that was unnecessary. At those voltages, the PS was limited to about 1A. A simple 1A charge for 1 hr would have put the battery in a safe range to start the car.
The harness I fabricated mates with a HV LED PSU with 350mA output. If this ever happens again, he merely needs to charge for 4 hours, and that should put the battery in a safe range for starting.
Honestly, what's your point? That's a silly question. Are you a Tech that has taken offense to my comments?
It was not my goal to fully charge the battery given that they were all from a 0% SoC. The sticks accessible from the top of the pack were all with .01V of each other and <1V/cell indicating uniform discharge throughout the pack. I did multiple timed discharges of decreasing current totaling less than 6000mAh of input. I monitored temperature of the pack frequently with an IR gun and FLIR One IR camera. Nothing ever got over 78°F. Given the inefficiency inherent in low current charging, it still wasn't near full. As I approached exceeded a computed 70% SoC, I limited the charge to 200mA to minimize the potential for heat.
Frankly, all of that was unnecessary. At those voltages, the PS was limited to about 1A. A simple 1A charge for 1 hr would have put the battery in a safe range to start the car.
The harness I fabricated mates with a HV LED PSU with 350mA output. If this ever happens again, he merely needs to charge for 4 hours, and that should put the battery in a safe range for starting.
Last edited by S Keith; 02-19-2017 at 07:01 AM.
