Don't Try This with a Prius or Why I'm Happy with 19 MPG
#11
04-19-2009, 06:58 AM
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Don't Try This with a Prius or Why I'm Happy with 19 MPG
Now that it has been shown the FEH is very capable, the other required item is a capable driver.
Note that on all U-Hauls they say "Max Speed 45 MPH".
Have you ever seen a U-haul outside your local neighborhood going less than 45 MPH? I haven't. But I promise you, I did go 45 MPH the first 25 miles or so, and did a few practice starts and stops at this lower speed to get the feel for the trailer. Only after I was comfortable, did I make the move to 50, and then 55 MPH. I spend most of the time in the windy parts of the road at 55 MPH. Then, later, when the wind ended, and I had several hours of experience, did I finally go up to 60 MPH.
The trailer was well balanced.
The FEH was well balanced.
I have a class III hitch.
The stopping was smooth and easy.
With the FEH's massive 4 wheel disc brakes ( something most vehicles don't have ) stopping was never labored, or lacking.
I know that prior to public sale of the FEH in 2004, the FEH was tested with towing the traditional 3500 pounds, and I'm told, they couldn't quote "break the thing" no matter how hard they tried. ( Does that mean Ford tests their 3500 lb. rated vehicles with 10,000 pounds? Probably! )
Funny, but true.... When I went to U-Haul, they run your tow vehicle through their computer to see if it is "qualified" to tow the equipment you wish to rent.
The FEH does "qualify" for the trailer I rented, even though the empty weight of this particular trailer was 1300 pounds! ( and the store owner's Explorer would NOT qualify! )
For example, U-Haul would not rent me a car-carrier ( 4 up ) trailer, because A) you need a class V hitch and B) empty trailer weight was 2500 pounds.
*disclaimer
I have no idea where U-haul gets thier information; from Ford or from their own testing?
Note that on all U-Hauls they say "Max Speed 45 MPH".
Have you ever seen a U-haul outside your local neighborhood going less than 45 MPH? I haven't. But I promise you, I did go 45 MPH the first 25 miles or so, and did a few practice starts and stops at this lower speed to get the feel for the trailer. Only after I was comfortable, did I make the move to 50, and then 55 MPH. I spend most of the time in the windy parts of the road at 55 MPH. Then, later, when the wind ended, and I had several hours of experience, did I finally go up to 60 MPH.
The trailer was well balanced.
The FEH was well balanced.
I have a class III hitch.
The stopping was smooth and easy.
With the FEH's massive 4 wheel disc brakes ( something most vehicles don't have ) stopping was never labored, or lacking.
I know that prior to public sale of the FEH in 2004, the FEH was tested with towing the traditional 3500 pounds, and I'm told, they couldn't quote "break the thing" no matter how hard they tried. ( Does that mean Ford tests their 3500 lb. rated vehicles with 10,000 pounds? Probably! )
Funny, but true.... When I went to U-Haul, they run your tow vehicle through their computer to see if it is "qualified" to tow the equipment you wish to rent.
The FEH does "qualify" for the trailer I rented, even though the empty weight of this particular trailer was 1300 pounds! ( and the store owner's Explorer would NOT qualify! )
For example, U-Haul would not rent me a car-carrier ( 4 up ) trailer, because A) you need a class V hitch and B) empty trailer weight was 2500 pounds.
*disclaimer
I have no idea where U-haul gets thier information; from Ford or from their own testing?
#12
04-19-2009, 08:50 AM
Re: Don't Try This with a Prius or Why I'm Happy with 19 MPG
I could probably tow 2600 pounds with my Honda motorcycle too, but that doesn't mean it's safe. U-Haul don't have a dog in thnis hunt. Do you think they would be liable in an accident where the owner was found to be way over the manufacturer's recommended towing limit?
#13
04-19-2009, 09:33 AM
Re: Don't Try This with a Prius or Why I'm Happy with 19 MPG
U-Haul has their own methodology. The note about the Ford Explorer not qualifying has to do with, I believe, a stability issue in their analysis process.
The first issue is weight of the tow vehicle, second is horsepower, and finally is stability and roll over protection. If U-Haul could be shown to have rented a trailer to a clearly unqualified vehicle, of course they could be hauled into court and have their deep pockets probed by some lawyer.
They are protecting against a lawsuit and then their equipment, that's all. You assume risk for the tow vehicle. That 45 mph would be indefensible if push came to shove in a court fight. It could be shown to be so flagrantly violated, with U-Haul's tacit knowledge, that a mediocre lawyer could take it apart.
In the end the info provided on engine and transaxle operation above is very useful and adds significantly to our collective knowledge of the FEH. The risk was his, emulate him with foreknowledge of those risks.
But say thank you.
The first issue is weight of the tow vehicle, second is horsepower, and finally is stability and roll over protection. If U-Haul could be shown to have rented a trailer to a clearly unqualified vehicle, of course they could be hauled into court and have their deep pockets probed by some lawyer.
They are protecting against a lawsuit and then their equipment, that's all. You assume risk for the tow vehicle. That 45 mph would be indefensible if push came to shove in a court fight. It could be shown to be so flagrantly violated, with U-Haul's tacit knowledge, that a mediocre lawyer could take it apart.
In the end the info provided on engine and transaxle operation above is very useful and adds significantly to our collective knowledge of the FEH. The risk was his, emulate him with foreknowledge of those risks.
But say thank you.
#14
04-19-2009, 02:37 PM
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Don't Try This with a Prius or Why I'm Happy with 19 MPG
I think it is worth saying that the FEH is heavier than any other Escape.
I think is is equally note worthy that the FEH has more powerful brakes than any other Escape. Add to this, that the weight distribution front to back is better in the FEH than any other Escape.
This points to, if not directly proves, that the FEH is equally safe, or very likely, more safe for use when towing than any other Escape.
If other Escapes can tow, so should the FEH.
The only issue I see is one of limited horsepower.
This will only effect the top speed capability when towing.
And the more you tow, the slower you should go, so I don't view this as a negative issue in the slightest.
I also tried a ( estimated ) 15% slope driveway with the 2600 lb. trailer attached. From a dead stop, I was able to get rolling without issue, showing there is plenty of torque at low speed.
FORD puts numbers on paper for a variety of reasons. One, and one I believe plays here is, to not disappoint customer's expectations.
Which is better? Publish the FEH can tow 1000 lbs when it can do better?
Or publish 3500 lbs. and have customer's be upset or disappointed with poor performance if they tried towing this maximum?
FWIW, to "curb" customer's expectations, FORD has always published on paper that the FEH is capable of "Electric only driving up to 25 MPH". Well, from day one, we all found out the real limit is 40 MPH.
-John
I think is is equally note worthy that the FEH has more powerful brakes than any other Escape. Add to this, that the weight distribution front to back is better in the FEH than any other Escape.
This points to, if not directly proves, that the FEH is equally safe, or very likely, more safe for use when towing than any other Escape.
If other Escapes can tow, so should the FEH.
The only issue I see is one of limited horsepower.
This will only effect the top speed capability when towing.
And the more you tow, the slower you should go, so I don't view this as a negative issue in the slightest.
I also tried a ( estimated ) 15% slope driveway with the 2600 lb. trailer attached. From a dead stop, I was able to get rolling without issue, showing there is plenty of torque at low speed.
FORD puts numbers on paper for a variety of reasons. One, and one I believe plays here is, to not disappoint customer's expectations.
Which is better? Publish the FEH can tow 1000 lbs when it can do better?
Or publish 3500 lbs. and have customer's be upset or disappointed with poor performance if they tried towing this maximum?
FWIW, to "curb" customer's expectations, FORD has always published on paper that the FEH is capable of "Electric only driving up to 25 MPH". Well, from day one, we all found out the real limit is 40 MPH.
-John
#15
04-19-2009, 04:08 PM
Re: Don't Try This with a Prius or Why I'm Happy with 19 MPG
I put another motivation to Ford on this one.
They do not have much experience with these transaxles towing. What they can do to protect themselves from "excessive" warranty claims to to put limits such that they feel they can reliably estimate such claims.
We'll see what they do, but I believe as they get more & more experience their limits will increase.
They do not have much experience with these transaxles towing. What they can do to protect themselves from "excessive" warranty claims to to put limits such that they feel they can reliably estimate such claims.
We'll see what they do, but I believe as they get more & more experience their limits will increase.
#16
04-19-2009, 10:16 PM
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Don't Try This with a Prius or Why I'm Happy with 19 MPG
Another example is:
They had little "real world" experience with the HV battery pack when it debuted. So the 2005-2007's came with an internal battery heater that could be activated with an optional 120 VAC plug-in cord. It was later ( I guess ) determined that the battery performed well enough in severe cold that the internal heater was not needed, and this "option" was discontinued in 2008.
#17
04-19-2009, 10:39 PM
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Don't Try This with a Prius or Why I'm Happy with 19 MPG
BTW.... I forgot to mention....
In town fuel economy while towing was quite excellent.
I was getting about 30 MPG in town with 2600 pounds behind me.
Coasting either at idle or in EV was greatly extended, and regen into the battery was exceptional. My battery pack was over the 53% SOC almost the whole time. I only did about 25 miles of this... over a perlonged period, this would have warmed the battery to the point of needed A/C cooling. I didn't reach that point in 25 miles.
In town fuel economy while towing was quite excellent.
I was getting about 30 MPG in town with 2600 pounds behind me.
Coasting either at idle or in EV was greatly extended, and regen into the battery was exceptional. My battery pack was over the 53% SOC almost the whole time. I only did about 25 miles of this... over a perlonged period, this would have warmed the battery to the point of needed A/C cooling. I didn't reach that point in 25 miles.
Re: Don't Try This with a Prius or Why I'm Happy with 19 MPG
#19
04-20-2009, 08:26 AM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: Don't Try This with a Prius or Why I'm Happy with 19 MPG
The issue is twofold: Vehicle guarantee and insurance coverage.
If you are within the manufacturers guarantee period then towing beyond the recommended limits means no coverage if a failure is logically related to the towing. They will have to show a connection if you end up in court, but they have enormous resources to put on showing that connection.
If there is and accident claim and the insuror specifies some limits on the vehicle & tow, then there may not be coverage. The bigger deal here is the liability issue.
I just rented a U-Haul 5x8 trailer (for towing behind my Suburban) and it notes its empty weight as 900 lbs. So it would be of little use behind the FEH.
In the end I believe Ford was very conservative in the 1000 lb limit. Given the higher ratings of the other versions there is sufficient mass in it as a tow vehicle to control the load. The issue is the power available for good towing.
This post shows that there are sufficient reserves in the engine & powertrain.
The only thing that the posts shows/indicates is that for "one time" there is enough engine and drivetrain "reserve". The number Ford quotes fro towing could be used continuous and (for instance) not wear the rear drive clutch set unduly.
Note that the planetary gearset of the transaxle is a far stronger set of gears when compared to a standard gearbox.
Why...??
With the primary focus on FE the gears in the e/CVT would likely be as small and light as is required for the vehicle...
I doubt that Ford will change the limits of those FEHs on the road, but I expect that they will begin raising the towing limits on newer models as they gain more experience.
You always tow at your own risk. Just ensure you understand just what those risks are.
If you are within the manufacturers guarantee period then towing beyond the recommended limits means no coverage if a failure is logically related to the towing. They will have to show a connection if you end up in court, but they have enormous resources to put on showing that connection.
If there is and accident claim and the insuror specifies some limits on the vehicle & tow, then there may not be coverage. The bigger deal here is the liability issue.
I just rented a U-Haul 5x8 trailer (for towing behind my Suburban) and it notes its empty weight as 900 lbs. So it would be of little use behind the FEH.
In the end I believe Ford was very conservative in the 1000 lb limit. Given the higher ratings of the other versions there is sufficient mass in it as a tow vehicle to control the load. The issue is the power available for good towing.
This post shows that there are sufficient reserves in the engine & powertrain.
The only thing that the posts shows/indicates is that for "one time" there is enough engine and drivetrain "reserve". The number Ford quotes fro towing could be used continuous and (for instance) not wear the rear drive clutch set unduly.
Note that the planetary gearset of the transaxle is a far stronger set of gears when compared to a standard gearbox.
Why...??
With the primary focus on FE the gears in the e/CVT would likely be as small and light as is required for the vehicle...
I doubt that Ford will change the limits of those FEHs on the road, but I expect that they will begin raising the towing limits on newer models as they gain more experience.
You always tow at your own risk. Just ensure you understand just what those risks are.
#20
05-09-2009, 12:39 AM
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Don't Try This with a Prius or Why I'm Happy with 19 MPG
Well I took the plunge. You could say I'm going for broke. 
After a successful tow of 1800 lbs last year, I tried 2600 pounds this year and had very pleasant results. So after renting, I took the plunge and purchased a trailer. ( toy hauler )
My new trailer, a "box" trailer, is 1600 lbs empty, and is rated for 3500 lbs gross. It came with electric brakes.
So today, I attached an (inertial/proportional) electric brake controller to my FEH and it works great. I've never used a trailer with electric brakes before. Considering it has to stop up to 3500 lbs, I figured it would take a lot of juice.
So I bought and installed 10 gauge wire with a 25 amp fuse directly to the 12v under hood battery. The controller with digital display is under my dash to the left of the steering wheel. Much to my amazement, the trailer brakes ( single axel ) only draw 3 amps at 9 volts in a near panic stop! More like 1.5 amps and 3 volts during a gentle stop. How does it brake so well with such little power? At 9 volts, 3 amps, while pushing the manual brake lever, the trailer will stop BOTH the FEH and Trailer combined ( without me touching the FEH brakes ) in about 50 feet from 25 MPH. Simply amazing ( to me ).
Seems like 27 watts stopping 6000 pounds in 50 feet must 'brake' ( pun ) some law of physics. That's some real mechanical advantage!
People used to the brake tap, or double tap to enter EV mode have often wondered if they could install a switch to the brake light switch to accomplish the same. No. The FEH has two brake pedal switches.
One is a contact switch. This switch controls the brake lamps. This switch is either on or off. Off when the pedal is up, On when you press the pedal down. THIS SWITCH DOES NOT CONTROL ( trigger ) EV mode.
The second switch is a position switch. Probably, a potentiometer. It measures an infinate number of positions, or values. It is this switch that signals to enter EV mode with the tap or double tap. It is also this switch that controls the amount of regen and/or brake pad pressure, when necessary.
Here's the interesting thing.... the two switches have different thresholds.
Perhaps this is adjustable. My position switch registers far before the brake light switch. That is, I can get up to 20 amps of regen brake before my tail lamps light. When the tail lamp switch closes, this is what triggers the trailer brake. The two switches do not jive with each other. This can be a good thing. This means in my particualar case, I can brake gently, up to 20 amps of regen ( which is like 33% of the max allowed ) without the drag of the trailer brakes... so the trailer momentum will ADD to my regen charging, so I have more battery power to boost taking off again with the heavy load.
In cases where I have lots of time and room to stop, I don't waste energy ( or trailer brake pads ) but I always have the safety of full trailer brakes by just pushing the brake pedal a mm or two further.
Also, when at a stop, I let up on the FEH brake pedal, get back to the threshold of the stop lamp switch, and the trailer brakes release, but the position switch is still down enough to cancel out the "creep" mode, and hold the pads enough to hold the FEH stationary.
I think, in general, the stop lamp switch should be adjusted to come on at the same time the position switch triggers, but in my case, I think it is to my advantage to leave it alone!
HTH,
-John
After a successful tow of 1800 lbs last year, I tried 2600 pounds this year and had very pleasant results. So after renting, I took the plunge and purchased a trailer. ( toy hauler )
My new trailer, a "box" trailer, is 1600 lbs empty, and is rated for 3500 lbs gross. It came with electric brakes.
So today, I attached an (inertial/proportional) electric brake controller to my FEH and it works great. I've never used a trailer with electric brakes before. Considering it has to stop up to 3500 lbs, I figured it would take a lot of juice.
So I bought and installed 10 gauge wire with a 25 amp fuse directly to the 12v under hood battery. The controller with digital display is under my dash to the left of the steering wheel. Much to my amazement, the trailer brakes ( single axel ) only draw 3 amps at 9 volts in a near panic stop! More like 1.5 amps and 3 volts during a gentle stop. How does it brake so well with such little power? At 9 volts, 3 amps, while pushing the manual brake lever, the trailer will stop BOTH the FEH and Trailer combined ( without me touching the FEH brakes ) in about 50 feet from 25 MPH. Simply amazing ( to me ).
Seems like 27 watts stopping 6000 pounds in 50 feet must 'brake' ( pun ) some law of physics. That's some real mechanical advantage!
People used to the brake tap, or double tap to enter EV mode have often wondered if they could install a switch to the brake light switch to accomplish the same. No. The FEH has two brake pedal switches.
One is a contact switch. This switch controls the brake lamps. This switch is either on or off. Off when the pedal is up, On when you press the pedal down. THIS SWITCH DOES NOT CONTROL ( trigger ) EV mode.
The second switch is a position switch. Probably, a potentiometer. It measures an infinate number of positions, or values. It is this switch that signals to enter EV mode with the tap or double tap. It is also this switch that controls the amount of regen and/or brake pad pressure, when necessary.
Here's the interesting thing.... the two switches have different thresholds.
Perhaps this is adjustable. My position switch registers far before the brake light switch. That is, I can get up to 20 amps of regen brake before my tail lamps light. When the tail lamp switch closes, this is what triggers the trailer brake. The two switches do not jive with each other. This can be a good thing. This means in my particualar case, I can brake gently, up to 20 amps of regen ( which is like 33% of the max allowed ) without the drag of the trailer brakes... so the trailer momentum will ADD to my regen charging, so I have more battery power to boost taking off again with the heavy load.
In cases where I have lots of time and room to stop, I don't waste energy ( or trailer brake pads ) but I always have the safety of full trailer brakes by just pushing the brake pedal a mm or two further.
Also, when at a stop, I let up on the FEH brake pedal, get back to the threshold of the stop lamp switch, and the trailer brakes release, but the position switch is still down enough to cancel out the "creep" mode, and hold the pads enough to hold the FEH stationary.
I think, in general, the stop lamp switch should be adjusted to come on at the same time the position switch triggers, but in my case, I think it is to my advantage to leave it alone!
HTH,
-John
