Economic logic of hybrids
#21
12-07-2009, 12:12 PM
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
But in any case, I believe that you quoted me as saying AWD. I'm not sure how this is important, because my point was that you compare the FE with the FEH, both of which have the same AWD system.
EDIT: Sorry, I see what you are trying to say, but I believe that Ford literature indicated that the 2008 had Intelligent AWD? But who knows, it doesn't make any difference to me, and doesn't make any difference in the MPG issue.
BTW, I would never call a system that lacks a low gear locking mechanism a 4WD. So not since 2004 has the FE been 4WD, in my opinion.
Last edited by stevedebi; 12-07-2009 at 12:27 PM.
#22
12-07-2009, 03:13 PM
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
Gary,
I don't know where you are getting the impression I am "knocking" anybody, that was not my intent. Apples to apples: you need to compare the AWD to the Escape ICE AWD to decide the economic benefits. My having an AWD has nothing to do with the economics of the hybrid. They don't pay out unless you own them for a long time, and keep in mind that the vast majority of people are like me, being careful to maximize MPG to a normal extent, but not being a hypermiler - and not interested in extreme techniques.
If you are interested in pure mileage, be sure to include light vehicles such as the bottom of the market Toyotas, or a Honda Fit, and then calculate the savings after including the lower purchase price. Some versions of those vehicles are 10K less than a Prius...
I bought the AWD because the 2008 did not have RSC and I didn't like the way the FWD leaned into turns. Since then I have used the AWD several times and am glad I got it.
I don't know where you are getting the impression I am "knocking" anybody, that was not my intent. Apples to apples: you need to compare the AWD to the Escape ICE AWD to decide the economic benefits. My having an AWD has nothing to do with the economics of the hybrid. They don't pay out unless you own them for a long time, and keep in mind that the vast majority of people are like me, being careful to maximize MPG to a normal extent, but not being a hypermiler - and not interested in extreme techniques.
If you are interested in pure mileage, be sure to include light vehicles such as the bottom of the market Toyotas, or a Honda Fit, and then calculate the savings after including the lower purchase price. Some versions of those vehicles are 10K less than a Prius...
I bought the AWD because the 2008 did not have RSC and I didn't like the way the FWD leaned into turns. Since then I have used the AWD several times and am glad I got it.
I know you did not mean to knock anything and I did not mean in any way to put down the 4WD or AWD FEH. I have owned at least 5 Ford 4WD SUV's and trucks here in So. FL and none of them were worth more than the 2WD versions at the time of selling or trading them in. There are a lot of people here that want 4WD systems to play off road or tow a big boat out of a ramp but gas mileage is what drives the resale value down.
The '08 FEH does not have RSC unless you see a button at the bottom of the center stack to disable it when you get stuck. The '09 FEH was the first FEH to have RSC to my knowledge. The gas Escape has had RSC for a while now.
I did find a '10 FEH Limited W/Navi at a dealer I use and took my wife for a test ride. There did not seem to be a warm-up requirement to go EV like my other FEH's and it is a big improvement over my '09 FEH for many other reasons. My wife took the FFH for a test ride and decided that she wanted one of those instead. The dealer only wanted to give me $9500 for my '05 FEH with 63,000 miles so we walked. Best to sale the '05 myself and then go shopping with cash in hand and no trade. Nothing wrong with the '05 so it's still a good driver for someone who wants a fully loaded FWD.
GaryG
#23
12-07-2009, 03:30 PM
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
Hi Steve
I know you did not mean to knock anything and I did not mean in any way to put down the 4WD or AWD FEH. I have owned at least 5 Ford 4WD SUV's and trucks here in So. FL and none of them were worth more than the 2WD versions at the time of selling or trading them in. There are a lot of people here that want 4WD systems to play off road or tow a big boat out of a ramp but gas mileage is what drives the resale value down.
The '08 FEH does not have RSC unless you see a button at the bottom of the center stack to disable it when you get stuck. The '09 FEH was the first FEH to have RSC to my knowledge. The gas Escape has had RSC for a while now.
I did find a '10 FEH Limited W/Navi at a dealer I use and took my wife for a test ride. There did not seem to be a warm-up requirement to go EV like my other FEH's and it is a big improvement over my '09 FEH for many other reasons. My wife took the FFH for a test ride and decided that she wanted one of those instead. The dealer only wanted to give me $9500 for my '05 FEH with 63,000 miles so we walked. Best to sale the '05 myself and then go shopping with cash in hand and no trade. Nothing wrong with the '05 so it's still a good driver for someone who wants a fully loaded FWD.
GaryG
I know you did not mean to knock anything and I did not mean in any way to put down the 4WD or AWD FEH. I have owned at least 5 Ford 4WD SUV's and trucks here in So. FL and none of them were worth more than the 2WD versions at the time of selling or trading them in. There are a lot of people here that want 4WD systems to play off road or tow a big boat out of a ramp but gas mileage is what drives the resale value down.
The '08 FEH does not have RSC unless you see a button at the bottom of the center stack to disable it when you get stuck. The '09 FEH was the first FEH to have RSC to my knowledge. The gas Escape has had RSC for a while now.
I did find a '10 FEH Limited W/Navi at a dealer I use and took my wife for a test ride. There did not seem to be a warm-up requirement to go EV like my other FEH's and it is a big improvement over my '09 FEH for many other reasons. My wife took the FFH for a test ride and decided that she wanted one of those instead. The dealer only wanted to give me $9500 for my '05 FEH with 63,000 miles so we walked. Best to sale the '05 myself and then go shopping with cash in hand and no trade. Nothing wrong with the '05 so it's still a good driver for someone who wants a fully loaded FWD.
GaryG
Good luck on your 2010 search!
#24
12-07-2009, 04:07 PM
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
I doubt that, my 2008 doesn't have RSC.
But in any case, I believe that you quoted me as saying AWD. I'm not sure how this is important, because my point was that you compare the FE with the FEH, both of which have the same AWD system.
EDIT: Sorry, I see what you are trying to say, but I believe that Ford literature indicated that the 2008 had Intelligent AWD? But who knows, it doesn't make any difference to me, and doesn't make any difference in the MPG issue.
BTW, I would never call a system that lacks a low gear locking mechanism a 4WD. So not since 2004 has the FE been 4WD, in my opinion.
But in any case, I believe that you quoted me as saying AWD. I'm not sure how this is important, because my point was that you compare the FE with the FEH, both of which have the same AWD system.
EDIT: Sorry, I see what you are trying to say, but I believe that Ford literature indicated that the 2008 had Intelligent AWD? But who knows, it doesn't make any difference to me, and doesn't make any difference in the MPG issue.
BTW, I would never call a system that lacks a low gear locking mechanism a 4WD. So not since 2004 has the FE been 4WD, in my opinion.
There are different flavors of 4WD on the market today and the sales literature refers to it as Intelligent 4WD. How can you call it AWD when it can only route/devert power between the back and front?? AdvanceTrac gives the vehicle the ability to use the ABS to pulse the brake of an individual wheel and that's where the AWD part comes into play.
If you want to read about different 4WD and AWD systems look here: http://www.4x4abc.com/index.html
#25
12-07-2009, 04:23 PM
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
I mentioned that because of this statement: I bought the AWD because the 2008 did not have RSC and I didn't like the way the FWD leaned into turns. Since then I have used the AWD several times and am glad I got it. [/b] I just see the incorrect term AWD used so often.
There are different flavors of 4WD on the market today and the sales literature refers to it as Intelligent 4WD. How can you call it AWD when it can only route/devert power between the back and front?? AdvanceTrac gives the vehicle the ability to use the ABS to pulse the brake of an individual wheel and that's where the AWD part comes into play.
If you want to read about different 4WD and AWD systems look here: http://www.4x4abc.com/index.html
There are different flavors of 4WD on the market today and the sales literature refers to it as Intelligent 4WD. How can you call it AWD when it can only route/devert power between the back and front?? AdvanceTrac gives the vehicle the ability to use the ABS to pulse the brake of an individual wheel and that's where the AWD part comes into play.
If you want to read about different 4WD and AWD systems look here: http://www.4x4abc.com/index.html
RSC/Advancetrac is a stability control used to prevent rollover and crash, not particularly involving driving the four wheels, regardless of how it works (and it works in both four wheel and two wheel applications, which in my opinion negates it as being a specific part of an "AWD" system - it works on FWD only vehicles).
Similarly, TC is used at low speeds to keep a wheel from spinning; closer to 4WD capability, and potentially useful, but not involving putting power to the rear wheels, which is the differentiating feature of AWD/4WD. And again, one should note that TC is available in FWD only models.
In my opinion AWD/4WD is used to get going, not to prevent crashes. I don't particularly care if one calls it AWD, RT4WD (my previous Honda had this), or I4WD.
Last edited by stevedebi; 12-07-2009 at 04:26 PM.
#26
12-07-2009, 05:18 PM
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
I call it AWD because All the Wheels Drive when it engages. I don't call it 4WD because there is no low range lock. Thanks for the link, but I understand four wheel drive systems pretty well.
RSC/Advancetrac is a stability control used to prevent rollover and crash, not particularly involving driving the four wheels, regardless of how it works (and it works in both four wheel and two wheel applications, which in my opinion negates it as being a specific part of an "AWD" system - it works on FWD only vehicles).
Similarly, TC is used at low speeds to keep a wheel from spinning; closer to 4WD capability, and potentially useful, but not involving putting power to the rear wheels, which is the differentiating feature of AWD/4WD. And again, one should note that TC is available in FWD only models.
In my opinion AWD/4WD is used to get going, not to prevent crashes. I don't particularly care if one calls it AWD, RT4WD (my previous Honda had this), or I4WD.
RSC/Advancetrac is a stability control used to prevent rollover and crash, not particularly involving driving the four wheels, regardless of how it works (and it works in both four wheel and two wheel applications, which in my opinion negates it as being a specific part of an "AWD" system - it works on FWD only vehicles).
Similarly, TC is used at low speeds to keep a wheel from spinning; closer to 4WD capability, and potentially useful, but not involving putting power to the rear wheels, which is the differentiating feature of AWD/4WD. And again, one should note that TC is available in FWD only models.
In my opinion AWD/4WD is used to get going, not to prevent crashes. I don't particularly care if one calls it AWD, RT4WD (my previous Honda had this), or I4WD.
AdvanceTrac is TC and RSC is a seperate program. AdvanceTrac or TC is available in both 4WD and FWD. Again, read up! Both make use of the ABS. Did you know that in '09 a trailer sway control was also added to the system?
If I would have known how unintelligent the 4WD systems used in the FE/FEH really are, I might have purchased something else from Ford.
#27
12-07-2009, 06:39 PM
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
Hmm, you'd better read up a bit! If it isn't some sort-of 4WD, it can never be called a AWD even by mistake. Again, read up!
AdvanceTrac is TC and RSC is a seperate program. AdvanceTrac or TC is available in both 4WD and FWD. Again, read up! Both make use of the ABS. Did you know that in '09 a trailer sway control was also added to the system?
If I would have known how unintelligent the 4WD systems used in the FE/FEH really are, I might have purchased something else from Ford.
AdvanceTrac is TC and RSC is a seperate program. AdvanceTrac or TC is available in both 4WD and FWD. Again, read up! Both make use of the ABS. Did you know that in '09 a trailer sway control was also added to the system?
If I would have known how unintelligent the 4WD systems used in the FE/FEH really are, I might have purchased something else from Ford.
You seem to be making some sort of distinction between AWD requiring RSC / Advancetrac, but then saying that they are separate programs and without them it is just "4WD"... really, I don't agree, if that is what you are saying. But I appreciate your viewpoint.
In case you missed it MY definition is that AWD is any system that transfers power to the rear wheels automatically, whereas 4WD means being able to lock the differential, especially in a low mode.
The FEH system is pretty advanced, being used in a predictive fashion, rather than just adding rear wheels when the front wheels spin. Some folks here have programmed their SG and this confirms that the AWD is used almost all the time to improve traction - not just under adverse conditions. I suspect this is why the EPA ratings are worse for the "four wheel drive" version; if the rear wheels only drove when the front wheels spin, then the normal MPG would be similar to the FWD (except for that 300 lbs). But the rear wheels DO spin, and the normal MPG is lower.
Last edited by stevedebi; 12-07-2009 at 06:43 PM.
#28
12-07-2009, 08:30 PM
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
No, I suggest YOU read up - my previous posts. I don't see where your opinion is diverging from mine. I also don't see how you are making any case for AWD vs."AWD".
You seem to be making some sort of distinction between AWD requiring RSC / Advancetrac, but then saying that they are separate programs and without them it is just "4WD"... really, I don't agree, if that is what you are saying. But I appreciate your viewpoint.
In case you missed it MY definition is that AWD is any system that transfers power to the rear wheels automatically, whereas 4WD means being able to lock the differential, especially in a low mode.
The FEH system is pretty advanced, being used in a predictive fashion, rather than just adding rear wheels when the front wheels spin. Some folks here have programmed their SG and this confirms that the AWD is used almost all the time to improve traction - not just under adverse conditions. I suspect this is why the EPA ratings are worse for the "four wheel drive" version; if the rear wheels only drove when the front wheels spin, then the normal MPG would be similar to the FWD (except for that 300 lbs). But the rear wheels DO spin, and the normal MPG is lower.
You seem to be making some sort of distinction between AWD requiring RSC / Advancetrac, but then saying that they are separate programs and without them it is just "4WD"... really, I don't agree, if that is what you are saying. But I appreciate your viewpoint.
In case you missed it MY definition is that AWD is any system that transfers power to the rear wheels automatically, whereas 4WD means being able to lock the differential, especially in a low mode.
The FEH system is pretty advanced, being used in a predictive fashion, rather than just adding rear wheels when the front wheels spin. Some folks here have programmed their SG and this confirms that the AWD is used almost all the time to improve traction - not just under adverse conditions. I suspect this is why the EPA ratings are worse for the "four wheel drive" version; if the rear wheels only drove when the front wheels spin, then the normal MPG would be similar to the FWD (except for that 300 lbs). But the rear wheels DO spin, and the normal MPG is lower.
I believe a Jeep Liberty has 2WD, 4WD Auto, 4WD Lock and it isn't called AWD either!
Here's a outline of what AdvanTrac covers: http://media.ford.com/article_displa...ticle_id=20679
4WDvsAWD: http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...vs-awd-cga.htm
The SG's 4WD programing is what brought me here! I disputed its readings as I "believed" the sales brochure description. Later after "actual" monitoring with test equipment and reading shop manuals, I changed my mind. I now have a SG-II also but have modified the coding because as DesertDog admitted, he based his coding on MAX 100% rear wheel torque when it should be only MAX 50%.
Last edited by wptski; 12-08-2009 at 06:49 AM.
#30
12-10-2009, 01:00 AM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Economic logic of hybrids
The Hybrid Escape may be equipped as:
PART TIME 4 WHEEL DRIVE or PART TIME ALL WHEEL DRIVE.
The rest my dear lads, is semantics.
However, since manufacturers use the terms interchangably, for owners to bicker over this is just plain dumb.
PART TIME 4 WHEEL DRIVE or PART TIME ALL WHEEL DRIVE.
The rest my dear lads, is semantics.
However, since manufacturers use the terms interchangably, for owners to bicker over this is just plain dumb.
