Ford Escape Hybrid Owner Complaints
#11
12-21-2004, 02:44 PM
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Yucca Valley, CA (Near Palm Springs)
Posts: 245
Steven -
Yes, but rather than 'fly-by-wire' I would say 'drive-by-wire'. Both pedals are hinged and depress small servos with no connection except wires running out. I have asked the Ford engineers the same questions about backup but receive always the same answer: "That is part of the propriatery knowledge base, and therefore cannot be disseminated at this time due to patents pending".
Pray for good software and good electrical contacts.
Mike
Yes, but rather than 'fly-by-wire' I would say 'drive-by-wire'. Both pedals are hinged and depress small servos with no connection except wires running out. I have asked the Ford engineers the same questions about backup but receive always the same answer: "That is part of the propriatery knowledge base, and therefore cannot be disseminated at this time due to patents pending".
Pray for good software and good electrical contacts.
Mike
#12
12-21-2004, 03:01 PM
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Yucca Valley, CA (Near Palm Springs)
Posts: 245
Red -
Correction:
NO websites have a hitch to fit the 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid. I have spent a month and a bushel of emails proving that a market does not exist. The mounting of a modified Da'Lan on my car yesterday we hope is the start of a market, first with Hitch-Web.Com and then later Curt, Ford, and hopefully many others.
Unfortunately, the unsuccessful mounting of the two hitches Ford thinks will work (one was a 2005 Regular Escape) was done out of my sight because of "shop restrictions" so all I know is they said the battery coolant lines were in the way.
Apparently, Ford Engineers still maintain that their hitch fits because today I received an email from Marketing asking for any info or contacts I might have to convince the engineers at a meeting tomorrow. I sent the names and phone numbers and a PDF file with photos and comments of the Da'Lan installation yesterday. If nayone wants a copy of this file please email me and I will send back as an attachment. Unfortunately at 189 kb it is too big to post here.
The FEH has an available keyless entry pad available from the dealers (I believe they told me about $200). I did not buy it but had an extra key made for free at the time I picked up the car.
I do think an ESP is the way to go. There are limited options among companies, especially in California. Either Ford or Warranty Direct. Only Ford will cover the Nav System but WD is cheaper. I do not need towing or road service the first couple of years so will probably purchase a 7 yr/100,000 for $2-$3 K later.
About 80% are buying the 110V option for about $110. I like it for little things like charging on the go, my laptop at full power, and Christmas Tree Lights in my back window. I do not know how much load except on the Ford Tour they had a 25 inch TV hooked up with VCR playing and the Hybrid turned on about every 5 minutes or so to recharge. Since the plug must rotate 90 degrees to plug something in I attached a fused power strip for convenience.
Mike
Correction:
NO websites have a hitch to fit the 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid. I have spent a month and a bushel of emails proving that a market does not exist. The mounting of a modified Da'Lan on my car yesterday we hope is the start of a market, first with Hitch-Web.Com and then later Curt, Ford, and hopefully many others.
Unfortunately, the unsuccessful mounting of the two hitches Ford thinks will work (one was a 2005 Regular Escape) was done out of my sight because of "shop restrictions" so all I know is they said the battery coolant lines were in the way.
Apparently, Ford Engineers still maintain that their hitch fits because today I received an email from Marketing asking for any info or contacts I might have to convince the engineers at a meeting tomorrow. I sent the names and phone numbers and a PDF file with photos and comments of the Da'Lan installation yesterday. If nayone wants a copy of this file please email me and I will send back as an attachment. Unfortunately at 189 kb it is too big to post here.
The FEH has an available keyless entry pad available from the dealers (I believe they told me about $200). I did not buy it but had an extra key made for free at the time I picked up the car.
I do think an ESP is the way to go. There are limited options among companies, especially in California. Either Ford or Warranty Direct. Only Ford will cover the Nav System but WD is cheaper. I do not need towing or road service the first couple of years so will probably purchase a 7 yr/100,000 for $2-$3 K later.
About 80% are buying the 110V option for about $110. I like it for little things like charging on the go, my laptop at full power, and Christmas Tree Lights in my back window. I do not know how much load except on the Ford Tour they had a 25 inch TV hooked up with VCR playing and the Hybrid turned on about every 5 minutes or so to recharge. Since the plug must rotate 90 degrees to plug something in I attached a fused power strip for convenience.
Mike
#13
12-21-2004, 05:49 PM
Mike,
SAE newsletter to the resque! Just in time to answer my question. It explains a bit about the EH braking system (note that the diagnostic displays a failsafe)
http://www.sae.org/automag/techbriefs/12-2...1-112-12-20.pdf
Cheers,
Steven
SAE newsletter to the resque! Just in time to answer my question. It explains a bit about the EH braking system (note that the diagnostic displays a failsafe)
http://www.sae.org/automag/techbriefs/12-2...1-112-12-20.pdf
Cheers,
Steven
#14
12-21-2004, 08:03 PM
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Yucca Valley, CA (Near Palm Springs)
Posts: 245
Thanks Stevo -
I offer the following technical info on both the Accelerator and Brake Control.
Acceleration Control
The engine management system electronically operates the throttle of the engine in response to throttle pedal movements initiated by the driver. In the event of a system failure, the engine management system provides a "limp home" mode which allows the car to be driven with limited performance.
Brake System — Escape Hybrid
The brake system has the following components:
fixed position foot pedal
front-to-rear split hydraulic system
front disc brakes utilizing a single piston floating brake caliper
rear disc brakes utilizing a single piston floating brake caliper
mechanical parking brake system utilizing a drum-in-hat within the rear disc brakes
4-wheel anti-lock brake system (4WABS).
Regenerative Braking System
Instead of just using the brakes to stop the vehicle, the electric motor that drives the hybrid electric vehicle can also slow the vehicle. In this mode, the electric motor acts as a generator and charges the batteries while the vehicle is slowing down. To achieve this, the anti-lock brake system (ABS) module calculates the amount of speed reduction requested by the driver through the accelerator pedal position and brake pedal travel sensor. The ABS module measures the inertia of the vehicle through the longitudinal accelerometer and determines if the required deceleration has been achieved. During deceleration/braking, the powertrain control module (PCM) partially engages the electronically controlled continuously variable transmission (eCVT) to be turned by the vehicle's wheels and slow it down. The ABS module requests the powertrain more or less dependant upon the driver request through the pedals. If the desired deceleration is not achieved through regenerative braking, the ABS module applies the friction brake pads to accommodate the driver request. The driver does not, under normal circumstances, have direct control over the amount of brake pressure that is applied to the rotors. In the event that the ABS module detects a fault which requires the deactivation of this system, the ABS module relinquishes control of braking and the driver will still have the use of manual hydraulic brakes.
Since the regenerative braking uses the electric motor to slow the vehicle's front wheels, front brake pad wear is reduced. The rear brake pads, because of the regenerative braking, wear at approximately twice the rate of the front brake pads.
Principles of Operation
The hydraulic control unit (HCU) controls the brake assist function as well as the anti-lock functions. The HCU contains an accumulator, driven by an electric motor, to supply pressurized brake fluid to the disc brake calipers during brake application. The electric motor begins to build pressure in the accumulator whenever the vehicle doors are opened or when the dome light is activated. The electric motor also charges the accumulator and initiates the brake system self-test whenever the ignition switch is turned to the ON position or the brake pedal is applied. During this time, 12 mm (0.47 in) of brake fluid is drawn from the master cylinder reservoir into the accumulator. The accumulator discharges 4 minutes after the ignition switch is turned to the OFF position and the vehicle dome light turns off, returning the brake fluid used during the charging of the accumulator to the master cylinder reservoir.
The regenerative braking system recovers the vehicle kinetic energy during deceleration to replace the high voltage traction battery energy. A certain level of regenerative braking is commanded by releasing the accelerator pedal. Further regenerative braking is commanded by applying the brake pedal. Whenever the ABS is activated, the affects of regenerative braking are reduced until the ABS event is over and the accelerator is applied.
The series of regenerative braking feature provides isolation of the driver brake demand from the friction brakes in order to provide a portion of the braking through negative torque request to the electric drive motor. In addition, this torque request results in a change in the flow of energy. The energy flows into, rather than out of, the battery. The motor's change from drive motor to generator is referred to as regeneration.
Regenerative braking logic is as follows:
NOTE: The ABS module is part of the HCU. Do not separate the ABS module from the HCU for any reason.
The ABS module determines the total torque request from accelerator pedal and brake pedal input.
The ABS module compares the drivers total request for a reduction of speed to the powertrain control module's (PCM) ability to slow the vehicle or negative "torque limit."
The ABS module requests the reduction in speed up to the torque limit from the PCM, via a torque modification request message sent to the PCM.
The ABS module applies the friction brakes beyond the torque limit.
I offer the following technical info on both the Accelerator and Brake Control.
Acceleration Control
The engine management system electronically operates the throttle of the engine in response to throttle pedal movements initiated by the driver. In the event of a system failure, the engine management system provides a "limp home" mode which allows the car to be driven with limited performance.
Brake System — Escape Hybrid
The brake system has the following components:
fixed position foot pedal
front-to-rear split hydraulic system
front disc brakes utilizing a single piston floating brake caliper
rear disc brakes utilizing a single piston floating brake caliper
mechanical parking brake system utilizing a drum-in-hat within the rear disc brakes
4-wheel anti-lock brake system (4WABS).
Regenerative Braking System
Instead of just using the brakes to stop the vehicle, the electric motor that drives the hybrid electric vehicle can also slow the vehicle. In this mode, the electric motor acts as a generator and charges the batteries while the vehicle is slowing down. To achieve this, the anti-lock brake system (ABS) module calculates the amount of speed reduction requested by the driver through the accelerator pedal position and brake pedal travel sensor. The ABS module measures the inertia of the vehicle through the longitudinal accelerometer and determines if the required deceleration has been achieved. During deceleration/braking, the powertrain control module (PCM) partially engages the electronically controlled continuously variable transmission (eCVT) to be turned by the vehicle's wheels and slow it down. The ABS module requests the powertrain more or less dependant upon the driver request through the pedals. If the desired deceleration is not achieved through regenerative braking, the ABS module applies the friction brake pads to accommodate the driver request. The driver does not, under normal circumstances, have direct control over the amount of brake pressure that is applied to the rotors. In the event that the ABS module detects a fault which requires the deactivation of this system, the ABS module relinquishes control of braking and the driver will still have the use of manual hydraulic brakes.
Since the regenerative braking uses the electric motor to slow the vehicle's front wheels, front brake pad wear is reduced. The rear brake pads, because of the regenerative braking, wear at approximately twice the rate of the front brake pads.
Principles of Operation
The hydraulic control unit (HCU) controls the brake assist function as well as the anti-lock functions. The HCU contains an accumulator, driven by an electric motor, to supply pressurized brake fluid to the disc brake calipers during brake application. The electric motor begins to build pressure in the accumulator whenever the vehicle doors are opened or when the dome light is activated. The electric motor also charges the accumulator and initiates the brake system self-test whenever the ignition switch is turned to the ON position or the brake pedal is applied. During this time, 12 mm (0.47 in) of brake fluid is drawn from the master cylinder reservoir into the accumulator. The accumulator discharges 4 minutes after the ignition switch is turned to the OFF position and the vehicle dome light turns off, returning the brake fluid used during the charging of the accumulator to the master cylinder reservoir.
The regenerative braking system recovers the vehicle kinetic energy during deceleration to replace the high voltage traction battery energy. A certain level of regenerative braking is commanded by releasing the accelerator pedal. Further regenerative braking is commanded by applying the brake pedal. Whenever the ABS is activated, the affects of regenerative braking are reduced until the ABS event is over and the accelerator is applied.
The series of regenerative braking feature provides isolation of the driver brake demand from the friction brakes in order to provide a portion of the braking through negative torque request to the electric drive motor. In addition, this torque request results in a change in the flow of energy. The energy flows into, rather than out of, the battery. The motor's change from drive motor to generator is referred to as regeneration.
Regenerative braking logic is as follows:
NOTE: The ABS module is part of the HCU. Do not separate the ABS module from the HCU for any reason.
The ABS module determines the total torque request from accelerator pedal and brake pedal input.
The ABS module compares the drivers total request for a reduction of speed to the powertrain control module's (PCM) ability to slow the vehicle or negative "torque limit."
The ABS module requests the reduction in speed up to the torque limit from the PCM, via a torque modification request message sent to the PCM.
The ABS module applies the friction brakes beyond the torque limit.
#15
12-29-2004, 12:42 PM
So maybe someone can help me out here.
We bought an Escape Hybrid about a month ago and have put about 1000 miles on it - probably a 60/40 city/hwy mix of driving. But we're only getting about 23 mpg overall and in just city driving we get about 17mpg!
We're driving as conservatively as possible. We don't run the defrost or AC. We live on a hill, but even when we're on the flats we're getting poor mileage.
The engine kicks in at about 10 mph every time - no matter how slowly we accelerate.
Ford mechanics keep telling us nothing is wrong with the car, but obviously, there is a problem. Has anyone else experienced this?
We bought an Escape Hybrid about a month ago and have put about 1000 miles on it - probably a 60/40 city/hwy mix of driving. But we're only getting about 23 mpg overall and in just city driving we get about 17mpg!
We're driving as conservatively as possible. We don't run the defrost or AC. We live on a hill, but even when we're on the flats we're getting poor mileage.
The engine kicks in at about 10 mph every time - no matter how slowly we accelerate.
Ford mechanics keep telling us nothing is wrong with the car, but obviously, there is a problem. Has anyone else experienced this?
#16
12-29-2004, 02:33 PM
I can't help with experience with the FEH, as mine is not yet produced. However I can advise that it may take 3,000 miles of break-in (loosen everything up) before you begin to see the long term fuel economy numbers that you expect.
Some posters have said it continues to improve up to 5k or so.
I wonder if the gas engine is kicking in at 10 mph because the battery is not fully charged. Perhaps a road trip is in order.
The Ford technicians are correct in stating that it is likely normal experience. I'm sure some of the experienced pros here on the board can give you advice on improving your MPG.
Some posters have said it continues to improve up to 5k or so.
I wonder if the gas engine is kicking in at 10 mph because the battery is not fully charged. Perhaps a road trip is in order.
The Ford technicians are correct in stating that it is likely normal experience. I'm sure some of the experienced pros here on the board can give you advice on improving your MPG.
#17
12-29-2004, 08:14 PM
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Yucca Valley, CA (Near Palm Springs)
Posts: 245
I have found that this is a most difficult car to diagnose. On my car I average 28-32 almost every day but my variables are surely much different from your own. The routes you drive and the time driving you cannot do much about. The Escape really gets awful mileage for the first 10 mintues even if you let it warm up. I do not know why and I have not been able to change that. If you drive for short commutes your mileage will be down even on the highway. I also live on a hill but the trip down and back up mostly evens things out.
Some of the variables you can control. First you must rest your foot on the gas pedal and just massage it, not really push it. It helps to get up to speed as soon as possible but start to let off when rpm gets near 4k as though you were helping it shift, trying to help it reach its 'sweet spot' on the tach. I brake often when I can because on my Nav I can see the battery charging. That is the key to staying in EV as long as possible (possibly giving you a good feeling but not the best MPG because immediately your mileage will go down while recharging the battery). I can stay in EV up to 40 MPH and most often can make it kick into EV at about 15 MPH if the battery is full. I can go up to 3 miles in EV and more if downhill. The key is real gradual acceleration.
It seems that the colder your outside ambient temperature the lower your MPG. Never use the fan or any of the temp controls in orange (unless you must use defrost). I match my Nav mileage against gas in/gas out and it is about the same usually. Apparently the lights and radio and wipers run off the 12V battery because they seem to make no difference in charging rate, night or day.
I understand what you say about slowly accelerating and I believe you but this car drives like no other. My best guess is that your commutes are too fast or too short to get a full charge to the battery pack. Let me know if you are getting your info from the Nav display or the gauges.
Mike
Some of the variables you can control. First you must rest your foot on the gas pedal and just massage it, not really push it. It helps to get up to speed as soon as possible but start to let off when rpm gets near 4k as though you were helping it shift, trying to help it reach its 'sweet spot' on the tach. I brake often when I can because on my Nav I can see the battery charging. That is the key to staying in EV as long as possible (possibly giving you a good feeling but not the best MPG because immediately your mileage will go down while recharging the battery). I can stay in EV up to 40 MPH and most often can make it kick into EV at about 15 MPH if the battery is full. I can go up to 3 miles in EV and more if downhill. The key is real gradual acceleration.
It seems that the colder your outside ambient temperature the lower your MPG. Never use the fan or any of the temp controls in orange (unless you must use defrost). I match my Nav mileage against gas in/gas out and it is about the same usually. Apparently the lights and radio and wipers run off the 12V battery because they seem to make no difference in charging rate, night or day.
I understand what you say about slowly accelerating and I believe you but this car drives like no other. My best guess is that your commutes are too fast or too short to get a full charge to the battery pack. Let me know if you are getting your info from the Nav display or the gauges.
Mike
#18
01-11-2005, 04:50 PM
Mileage problems persist
Thought I'd pop this back up to the top and see if anyone else had new info.
We're up to 2200 miles now on our Escape hybrid and the mpg is still terrible.
We've done a few 2-hour road trips over the holidays, and plenty of freeway driving and had excellent results - close to 36 mpg. Once we get up to speed, we simply feather the gas pedal to keep our speed. It's not uncommon to have the engine shut off for long periods of time while we're at 70 mph.
But in the city is a completely different story. We still can't hit more than 10 mph without the engine kicking in, and many times, despite accelerating as slowly as possible, the engine kicks in right away. No matter what we do, we can't get more than about 17 mpg in the city.
Overall, we're not even getting 23 mpg - which pretty much defeats the purpose of getting a hybrid in the first place.
Is anyone else having this problem? Could it be a software thing telling the engine to kick in too soon? Maybe a battery problem (although it says energy levels are normal). We're getting really frustrated at this point because no one (not even Ford) can help us!
We're up to 2200 miles now on our Escape hybrid and the mpg is still terrible.
We've done a few 2-hour road trips over the holidays, and plenty of freeway driving and had excellent results - close to 36 mpg. Once we get up to speed, we simply feather the gas pedal to keep our speed. It's not uncommon to have the engine shut off for long periods of time while we're at 70 mph.
But in the city is a completely different story. We still can't hit more than 10 mph without the engine kicking in, and many times, despite accelerating as slowly as possible, the engine kicks in right away. No matter what we do, we can't get more than about 17 mpg in the city.
Overall, we're not even getting 23 mpg - which pretty much defeats the purpose of getting a hybrid in the first place.
Is anyone else having this problem? Could it be a software thing telling the engine to kick in too soon? Maybe a battery problem (although it says energy levels are normal). We're getting really frustrated at this point because no one (not even Ford) can help us!
#19
01-12-2005, 01:01 PM
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Yucca Valley, CA (Near Palm Springs)
Posts: 245
I am not sure you meant to say a couple of the things you stated. First, I wish I was getting 36 MPG! I am really above average on my 40 mile drives at 28-30 (from what I hear) and I also feather and let the car stay in a range, slower uphill and faster down coasting. There is really no way the engine (Internal Combustion Engine - ICE) can be shutting off at over 40 MPH. I have gotten it to stay off for up to 5-6 miles now up to 40 MPH when I go into it with a full charge (as illustrated on my Nav Sys). I realize some can only use the gauges on the dash to see the approximate charge on the battery and I consider them to be less than ideal. I can see exactly when my battery is at 90% (about as high as it will go) and I can boost it by braking and coasting.
I have about 3,000 miles. My EV Mode is getting better up to 40 MPH and up to 7-12 minutes and up to 5-6 miles but only if I have a good charge and am easy on the pedal. Actually, you will not get your best mileage using EV because you must recharge the battery with ICE (not the most efficient). The best City Mileage will be accomplished with slow starts, motor off at stoplights, stay under 30-40 MPH. I agree that most are getting better Highway than City. I live in the country so my best City has been about 33.
I agree that the firmware is still too tight and hope for the first update soon.
Overall I think the utility and mileage of the FEH is superior than any other SUV (to date).
Hope this helps.
I have about 3,000 miles. My EV Mode is getting better up to 40 MPH and up to 7-12 minutes and up to 5-6 miles but only if I have a good charge and am easy on the pedal. Actually, you will not get your best mileage using EV because you must recharge the battery with ICE (not the most efficient). The best City Mileage will be accomplished with slow starts, motor off at stoplights, stay under 30-40 MPH. I agree that most are getting better Highway than City. I live in the country so my best City has been about 33.
I agree that the firmware is still too tight and hope for the first update soon.
Overall I think the utility and mileage of the FEH is superior than any other SUV (to date).
Hope this helps.
#20
01-18-2005, 01:55 PM
Just chiming in...
Just an FYI I have about 9700 miles on my 2005 Escape Hybrid at this point. The recent cold snap (in the NorthEast - NJ) has completely decimated my milage (as expected) in the first 10-15 mins. Today I registered a 17 with mixed highway/local driving but later in the drive was able to average 31mph (averaged over approxmately 1 hour)
Also RE ICE shutudown. I have not been able to put my finger on it but there are times (particularly when it's wet outside) that the engine SHOULD shutdown but sometimes will idle 20-30 seconds before shutting down. It has also happened that it will not shut down at all after a prolonged drive. (Yes my defroster/max AC etc is NOT ON).
In have rebooted (on/off iginition) a few times to test this condition and it seems to have gotten things back on track (in terms of the ICE/Hybrid functioning predicability).
I assume there must be some type of temperature mechnism that determines if the shutdown can occur
any ideas/thoughts? Has anyone else witnesses irratic Shutdown behaviour as I have described.
Also RE ICE shutudown. I have not been able to put my finger on it but there are times (particularly when it's wet outside) that the engine SHOULD shutdown but sometimes will idle 20-30 seconds before shutting down. It has also happened that it will not shut down at all after a prolonged drive. (Yes my defroster/max AC etc is NOT ON).
In have rebooted (on/off iginition) a few times to test this condition and it seems to have gotten things back on track (in terms of the ICE/Hybrid functioning predicability).
I assume there must be some type of temperature mechnism that determines if the shutdown can occur
any ideas/thoughts? Has anyone else witnesses irratic Shutdown behaviour as I have described.
