I am new to this website and this is my 1st post so please be gental. Ha! I have searched the archives and can't find anything that addresses my situation. I have a 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid with a hybrid battery that is below the 40% threshold. I can't confirm this for sure but I have no reason to not believe it is the issue, as the hybrid battery has been sitting for over a year.

To give a brief background, our 2005 Hybrid was in a head-on collision in April of 2014. It is totaled. We bought another 2005 FEH with a bad and missing engine, that had been sitting for about 2 years in April of 2014. I just finished putting the engine from the totaled FEH into the good FEH that needs an engine. So currently I have two hybrid batteries, one sitting for 3 years total and one sitting for 1 year. I have tried both batteries in the FEH we have put the good motor in and there is no sign of power from either battery. I don't believe this is a surprise to anyone as after this period of time, it is probably discharged way past the battery limit of 40% whereby I believe the batttery has a safety device that disconnects the power so you don't fully discharge the battery beyond this point, as battery life is best if the hybrid battery is maintained between 40% and 60%. If I am not correct, please advise.

In any case the FEH has a new 12 volt battery. We have tried the footwell jump start button that comes on green for 8 minutes and I believe exists for the purpose of providing a small charge to the Hybrid battery from the 12 volt battery, to get above the 40% charge level if you were to creep down below this level. But it has not solved our probelm even after cycling many times and putting a charger on the 12 volt battery to not draw it down. Again I don't find this surprising as I believe we are well below this 40% threshold and I can't imagine the 12 volt battery providing any more than a volt or 2 increase (if that) in 8 minutes when comparing the capacity of the two. 40% of 330 volts is 132 volts so I can imagine that the Hybrid battery could be fully discharged or even at 80 volts and it would take a lot to get it back to 132 volts and the small capacity built-in booster would take forever. But I would like to know if we are making progress with this mini boost times 10. I can't seem to get a battery voltage indication.

So does anyone know how to measure the voltage of one of these hybrid batteries? They have safety interlocks everywhere, which I have been trying to fully understand. It may be as simple as shorting the two interlock wires on the interlock connector at the battery and carefully measure the voltage across the positive and negative outlet terminals on the hybrid battery. Of course everyone is scared of this approach and rightfully so, due to 330 volts DC being lethal. I do have extensive electrical experience so I am fairly comfortable that I know all the precautions to take. In any case I would like to know my options. Ford has been of no help. "Bring the Hybrid" in is what they want me to do. Obvously that can't happen at this stage. So can anyone techically knowledgeable of the FEH help such as:

Any way to test the voltage of the hybrid battery out of the car?
Any way to read the hybrid battery voltage within the car features?
Any way to charge the hybrid battery quicker?
Any place to bring the battery to have it checked out?

We are pretty desperate at this stage and hope someone can point us in the right direction.

Thanks!

 

The emergency shut off is below 30% maybe 20 but that's only while it's in the car. The 12 vdc never charges the HVB. If everything is installed correctly and it doesn't start, the HVB is probably dead. You can't charge it. Only a dealer can. It was a mistake to become a backyard mechanic for one of these vehicles. You can't measure HVB voltage to determine SOC. Don't mess with it. Only a Ford dealer can fix this IF it's fixable. Why can't you take it to a dealer? Of course it will have to be towed. Sorry.

 

Thanks for the response but the dealers also can't do this, without making a huge project out of this simple situation. According to the two dealers I have dealt with, they are aware of a charging system to charge these batteries but the dealers don't have them at each dealer. In fact there are only a few in the whole entire country. They have to sign up for it and have it shipped to them. So the dealers are not proficient at using and diagnosing as they don't have the equipment to do so. In Ford's defense and probably in defense of the Hybrid industry, this probably bodes well to illustrate just how trouble free the Hybrid systems are. But surely it was not the intent of the Hybrid industry to make it so time and cost prohibitive that when Hybrid vehicles get older, we make a simple fix cost prohibitive, such that a $5,000 used hybrid vehicle has to be thrown away?

I have done some research on these hybrid batteries and although sitting at a low deteriorating rate is not the ideal state for them, the loss of life is probably less than from the 1 to three years of cycles the battery would have been subjected to. The New York taxi system, based mostly on Ford Escape Hybrids, are in the 250K to 300K miles range and are still running strong on original hybrid batteries.

I am sure you did not mean this personally at me , but I am far from a "backyard mechanic". 6 1/2 car garage and $50K worth of welders, tools, diagnostic equipment, and 40 years experience repairing cars. Not just maintanance type repair but engine, tranny, and rearend rebuilds. Pretty comfortable with electrical diagnostics. Yes, the Hybrid is another level of complexity but not that difficult to understannd. In fact I have researched and copied numerous articles off the internet by Hybrid guru's who seem interested in helping owners to understand the Hybrid system so they can self diagnose and fix them. Yes, they stop short of the hybrid battery but only because of the safety and special charging equipment needed.

My understanding is the dealers cannot charge the battery while installed in the car. So if that is the case then it should be easy to have just the battery delivered somewhere to have it tested. Removing a hybrid battery is a very simple and safe operation. The only issue is the weight requires two adults to handle.

I have found some companies starting to pop up that test and recondition your hybrid battery but the closest one I know of is in New Jersey. I am in North central Connecticut, so that is 2 1/2 hours away.

I am still hoping to hear from someone that knows anything about this situation, especially about the in-car voltage/SOC? reading, etc.

Regarding the in-car battery booster feature, I have read countless articles arguing both ways but the FEH owners manual and my observations seem to indicate that Ford's intent was to provide a small voltage increase to the hybrid battery from the 12 volt battery. They refer to this system if your car will not turn over to start. And we all know that the starter for Hybrids is a high voltage system not the typical 12 volt starter system.

 

I see you are a high level mechanic but the phrase was meant for you when you said you would measure the charge remaining in the HVB by measuring the voltage, i.e. 40% 0f 330 is 132 V. That's not the way it works so I was ( am ) really concerned about you working on the HVB.
Apparently some early FEHs may have had a small inverter that could charge the HVB from the 12 vdc battery. I don't know how that would have worked very well and Ford discontinued it when there were no instances of it being used. The voltage would have needed to by boosted by a factor of 30 or so and the current would have been reduced by the same amount. If you could get 300 amps out of the 12 vdc for a few seconds you could put 10 amps in the HVB. that's a 3.6Kw inverter. If the HVB is below 300 v it's essentially dead and they don't tolerate that and are usually toast. The thousands ( tens of thousands ) of charge-discharge cycles between 40-60% don't bother the HVB at all. One discharge does. In a DOE test to 160 K miles of a 2010 FFH, the HVB lost only 8% of its amp-hour capacity. The FFH HVB is a second generation design but still uses NiMH D-cells.
The failure rate of the Ford HVBs has been so small that there has been no aftermarket repair industry develop. The MEC pump, HVB fans and duct door failures has been high. I though all of them were covered by TSBs at no cost.
Here's a site that advertizes replacement batteries: http://greentecauto.com/product-category/ford

 

It would be closer to loosely base the capacity on .9V/cell which is considered as the very lowest that a Ni-MH should be discharged to without the chance of cell polarity reversal.

 

Go to Figure 1 at this web site of the DOE's AVTA ( avt.inl.gov/pdf/hev/batteryfusion4699.pdf ) to see the voltage vs. energy discharged for the 2010 FFH HVB. AT 20% discharged or 275 Whrs the cell voltage ( divide by 204 ) is 1.31. At 80% discharged, 1.096 KWhrs, the cell voltage is 1.25. This is the maximuum range the battery is operated in except when reconditioning when it goes to 0% discharged.
The voltage falls off the cliff at about 1.15 v.
The FEH has more cells but the NiMH cells probably behave similarly. When operated over this narrow voltage range it's believed that the HVBs life will exceed that of the rest of the car. The Dorman Replacement HVBs sound like a good deal.

 

If I'm not mistaken, a FEH can still be jump started an run on its ICE with a completely dead HV battery. I know mine has run on a jump start after long periods of storage, it just needed a while to get back in to EV mode.
I think the OP has an even bigger challenge of making an engine and transmission transplant work correctly, especially without Ford diagnostic and programming tools.
Attempting to charge a HVB with an external device is probably more dangerous than helpful IMO.

 

Lolder, I can understand why you would be concerned about my voltage comment related to charge remaining. I can assure you I had the same concern when I have read this in numerous places on the web. So I figured these folks know what they are talking about and these types of hybrid batteries are a different animal then I know about, and must exhibit considerable voltage drop when discharging, and that the design of the FEH is such that it works wih that approach. After reading your comments I would guess that the authors of these minimum voltage limits are actually referring to % capacity limits that the FEH monitors and reports on its center screen? Can someone educate me on this and how I access it? I have looked but have not seen such a reading.

By the way I also don't see any codes when I use my OBD II reader in the plug below the steering wheel. I am assuming it needs some running time to observe and react to an error code over time?

In summary, I may at some point have to consider a new Hybrid battery, but of course it would be a last resort as I have no evidence at all that either of my two hybrid batteries are bad. I am far away from believing my only option is $3K plus. I can attest to the fact that both were fine healthy batteries when they were last used. I have not seen any wording in Ford's paperwork or owners manuals even hinting that you will ruin/destroy a hybrid battery if you let it sit too long. I have read where you can degrade the hybrid battery charge over time and drop below where the safety circuit kicks in, but not anything about the batttery no longer being good. So can we focus on how to find out if my two batteries are any good? Are they below this safety limit and need to be charged somehow to get them abobve the cut out limit? Surely someone out there knows what Ford or a Hybrid battery expert does to check this out? If I could see a base reading of capacity on the screen and then see some small increase with using Fords "8 minutes per cycle" booster charge on early FEH's, then heck I can press that button tons of times until I get above the threshold for free. If I don't see any positive change, then I need to consider finding someone who knows how to test and/or charge hybrid batteries. So far, no leads on either. Thanks for any help you Hybrid experts can give me.

One last thing. If is is true that the voltage falls off the cliff after 1.15volts, does that not support the case that there is a voltage battery value whereby the total battery voltage value may go below a point of no return from discharge (related to discharge or capacity left) and yes, measuring the voltage of the total hybrid battery has value in determining the status and future of these batteries?

 

This discussion is well above my technical understanding, but I can add this. I intentionally discharged the HV battery below 40%, go it down to 25% IIRC. It recharged back to 53% from the ICE. Sorry guys, I'd like to help but that's the totality of my experience.

 

No Toyota/Ford type eCVT hybrid will run without a functioning HVB and control system. Only the HVB starts the ICE.