AFS Trinity dust-up
#1
11-07-2008, 02:20 PM
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 5,613
AFS Trinity dust-up
http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=147907
In this case, I'm sort of with the Auto Show but it does show a real problem. How do we evaluate mixed power source vehicles using MPG, a relic of ordinary gas only vehicles. I don't know the answer but we're going to need something that makes sense and is fair.
LATE THOUGHT: If GM and/or Chrysler go out of business, will the new hybrid companies like AFT Trinity, Fisher and Tesla be able to 'buy a factory' to retool for their products? Would we see a resurgence of innovation in an industry that seems to be a little 'behind the power curve?'
Bob Wilson
AFS Trinity Power Corporation today announced it pulled its 150 MPG plug-in hybrid SUV prototypes out of the LA Auto Show but will independently exhibit and demonstrate the super fuel-efficient vehicles on their own elsewhere in downtown LA during the show.
The company's decision followed actions by the LA Auto Show to muzzle AFS Trinity from highlighting the 150 miles per gallon fuel economy of its XH150 prototype vehicles. "The suppression by the automakers of information about technologies such as this raises serious questions about the judgment, vision, intentions and capabilities of the leadership of these companies," said Edward W. Furia, Chairman and CEO of AFS Trinity. "Such conduct by the automakers, who are currently seeking tens of billions of taxpayer dollars, ostensibly to develop fuel efficient vehicle technologies, is evidence they are reluctant to embrace solutions they didn't invent."
. . .
The company's decision followed actions by the LA Auto Show to muzzle AFS Trinity from highlighting the 150 miles per gallon fuel economy of its XH150 prototype vehicles. "The suppression by the automakers of information about technologies such as this raises serious questions about the judgment, vision, intentions and capabilities of the leadership of these companies," said Edward W. Furia, Chairman and CEO of AFS Trinity. "Such conduct by the automakers, who are currently seeking tens of billions of taxpayer dollars, ostensibly to develop fuel efficient vehicle technologies, is evidence they are reluctant to embrace solutions they didn't invent."
. . .
LATE THOUGHT: If GM and/or Chrysler go out of business, will the new hybrid companies like AFT Trinity, Fisher and Tesla be able to 'buy a factory' to retool for their products? Would we see a resurgence of innovation in an industry that seems to be a little 'behind the power curve?'
Bob Wilson
Last edited by bwilson4web; 11-07-2008 at 02:33 PM.
#2
11-07-2008, 07:05 PM
Re: AFS Trinity dust-up
I saw this at Prius Owners Group and passed it along to CleanMPG. Gerdes et al. are going to the LA Auto Show and I suggested that they take a side trip to wherever AFS decides to hang out their sign.
It would be interesting to know more about that prototype. Vague impression that it uses compressed air power in some fashion, but I can't open their web site at the moment.
DAS
It would be interesting to know more about that prototype. Vague impression that it uses compressed air power in some fashion, but I can't open their web site at the moment.
DAS
#3
11-07-2008, 10:41 PM
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 5,613
Re: AFS Trinity dust-up
They have a mixed ultracapacitor and battery system:
http://www.afstrinity.com/xh.htm
The ultra capacitors handle the problem of high current charge and discharge that heats and ages our batteries. But ultra capacitors require a sophisticated control system. AFS appears to have addressed that hard problem from the beginning. This page also shows how they calculated 150 MPG.
AFS is claiming 20% of the mileage would be under gas engine mode at 30 MPG and assigns no MPG for the 80% under plug-in power. From an energy standpoint, this is wrong because the plug-in power has to still come from an energy source. It is the same nonsense GM tried by claiming E85 was only 15% gasoline so the ethanol is 'free'.
I'm beginning to think $/mile is the only useful measure. This takes the form of energy out of the equation. It works for diesel, air, plug-in, CNG, or any other form.
Bob Wilson
. . .
Extreme Hybrid™ Energy Storage Detail
AFS Trinity selected Lithium-ion battery technology for its minimum weight per unit of stored energy. The life of lithium batteries, however, is shortened by high current discharge and recharge during acceleration and braking. The presence of a high power density ultracapacitor will buffer the battery from these high current events and extend battery life to a ten year, 150,000 mile life in an Extreme Hybrid™ SUV.
Li-ion battery technology has advanced dramatically over the past ten years, and this rate of advance is expected to continue, bringing it to a high stage of development by the year 2010, concurrent with the completion of development of the Extreme Hybrid™. Power Electronics prices have dropped 15% per year for a decade, and this trend is expected to continue, which will also contribute to Extreme Hybrid™ vehicle affordability in 2010. Ultracapacitor prices have dropped a factor of two every two years for the past six years, and the price drop is projected to continue through 2010 and beyond.
Extreme Hybrid™ Energy Storage Detail
AFS Trinity selected Lithium-ion battery technology for its minimum weight per unit of stored energy. The life of lithium batteries, however, is shortened by high current discharge and recharge during acceleration and braking. The presence of a high power density ultracapacitor will buffer the battery from these high current events and extend battery life to a ten year, 150,000 mile life in an Extreme Hybrid™ SUV.
Li-ion battery technology has advanced dramatically over the past ten years, and this rate of advance is expected to continue, bringing it to a high stage of development by the year 2010, concurrent with the completion of development of the Extreme Hybrid™. Power Electronics prices have dropped 15% per year for a decade, and this trend is expected to continue, which will also contribute to Extreme Hybrid™ vehicle affordability in 2010. Ultracapacitor prices have dropped a factor of two every two years for the past six years, and the price drop is projected to continue through 2010 and beyond.
The ultra capacitors handle the problem of high current charge and discharge that heats and ages our batteries. But ultra capacitors require a sophisticated control system. AFS appears to have addressed that hard problem from the beginning. This page also shows how they calculated 150 MPG.
AFS is claiming 20% of the mileage would be under gas engine mode at 30 MPG and assigns no MPG for the 80% under plug-in power. From an energy standpoint, this is wrong because the plug-in power has to still come from an energy source. It is the same nonsense GM tried by claiming E85 was only 15% gasoline so the ethanol is 'free'.
I'm beginning to think $/mile is the only useful measure. This takes the form of energy out of the equation. It works for diesel, air, plug-in, CNG, or any other form.
Bob Wilson
#4
11-14-2008, 05:55 AM
Re: AFS Trinity dust-up
$/mile won't work very well either, because it is too variable to make any meaningful comparison. Even if the tech remains unchanged, price changes will make comparisons (over time) meaningless. My car did not suddenly become 30% more efficient since August.
$/mile works as a budget estimate, but not as an efficiency estimate.
You are right, though, that it can serve as a reality check on folks claiming that ethanol, or electricity from the mains, should count as 'free'.
$/mile works as a budget estimate, but not as an efficiency estimate.
You are right, though, that it can serve as a reality check on folks claiming that ethanol, or electricity from the mains, should count as 'free'.
#5
11-14-2008, 06:36 AM
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 5,613
Re: AFS Trinity dust-up
$/mile won't work very well either, because it is too variable to make any meaningful comparison. Even if the tech remains unchanged, price changes will make comparisons (over time) meaningless. My car did not suddenly become 30% more efficient since August.
$/mile works as a budget estimate, but not as an efficiency estimate.
You are right, though, that it can serve as a reality check on folks claiming that ethanol, or electricity from the mains, should count as 'free'.
$/mile works as a budget estimate, but not as an efficiency estimate.
You are right, though, that it can serve as a reality check on folks claiming that ethanol, or electricity from the mains, should count as 'free'.
- graph of MPG vs speed
- graph of drag power vs speed
- graph of engine power vs fuel
Now this would really make me happy. However, my wife is more '$' oriented.
I would be happy if the first chart showing the MPG vs speed were plotted with "$" values vs. steady state, standard day, cruise with some well defined "$/gallon" and "$/kwh."
Actually, you've given me an idea for a pair of charts that combines these two core charts into one by using a variable scale, engine power X-axis to map the engine fuel consumption into the upper chart. This would address a question raised in another thread by someone who interpreted higher engine rpm as 'transmission slippage.' Thanks!
Bob Wilson
Last edited by bwilson4web; 11-14-2008 at 06:41 AM.
#6
11-14-2008, 10:39 PM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: AFS Trinity dust-up
We need to meaure a car's efficiency in kWh per mile.
You can convert this to other energy units.
You need to track energy per mile.
Nothing else really matters.
You can convert this to other energy units.
You need to track energy per mile.
Nothing else really matters.
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