I would have also guessed that a TDi could beat the Prius on high-speed mpg. Someday, a media article will ask us to guess which vehicles give the lowest total cost of ownership and lowest pollutant enissions. I bet that a lot of GreenHybrid readers will guess correctly on that one.

DAS (also a fan of biodiesel!)

 

Good point

however, this is to suggest what i suspect using my common sense. Do people honestly expect 'autoweek' 'car and driver' and a host of others DONT have major players whispering in their ears? These places are 100% above that?

Lets get real. For reasons uknown, they do this 'test' that was lets say 'slanted' to give results they already knew. Yet some folks here seem to think its just by ***** nilly 'co incidence' .

Does anyone think the 'test' was free? How much did they spend doing this 'test' and who paid for it? Auto week ate the costs did they? For information they already knew? To prove what?

Like the previous poster, where are all the tests about emissions and city driving. Gas and Deisel cars probably wouldnt shine in that 'test' now would it?

Cut to the REAL chase.

How many gas cars are built and sitting on lots waiting to be sold? How many hybrids in comparison? What is the ratio? 99% to 1%?

I guess they need some 'tests' to prove gas or diesel cars are just as good as hybrids, right? It all comes down to $$$$$$.

I think folks underestimate how much money is involved here -and whats at stake for these automakers.

 

Best way to sell the "overrated" Prius versus ANY diesel...let the prospective buyer sit behind an idling diesel. Repeat for an "idling" Prius...or "idling" hybrid of any kind. I know I hate to sit in traffic, be anywhere NEAR a diesel. New diesels are still that...diesel. I'll be a diesel convert when I can experience the same low emissions I get from my Prius. It's NOT all about MPG.


EPA tests what comes out the tailpipe, NOT gallons pumped versus miles travelled, like the rest of us. THAT's why the Prius has great EPA numbers. Real world driving does indeed show the Civic Hybrid does as well. Does NOT mean the Prius is overrated. Many get EPA mileage, many don't. SO many factors to consider out on the streets. The ONLY lab-repeatable tests give the Prius the edge since the tailpipe emissions are so stellar.

PS And highway tests are great but give me a combined test, please. What, are all these cars air-lifted to the highway, no surface/local streets they have to drive on? Just highway? Get real, there is ALWAYS some low-speeds involved in EVERYONE's commute. Day after day, we ALL sit in traffic...unless you're commuting on I-90 Montana.

 

finman

good points.

The 'test' wasnt about the HCH vs the Pruis . It wasnt to showcase to us who have hybrids or mock us in hindsight. It wasnt about anything but SELLING GAS AND DIESEL cars.

The average american is not on greenyhbrid.com. Auto week and the players that control it arent interested in people who have already made a choice. Especially to hybrids.

They are interested in the dollars sitting in the average americans pocket -who is thinking about purchasing. So they already know what the best hybrid is . Average americans dont have a clue.

This is why they used the Pruis, because to the average american , the pruis is the most high profile and therefore 'hybrid ' in their mind. Cutting down the Pruis = cutting down all hybrids to unwitting americans who have gas cars and they want them to STEER CLEAR of them.

Why? Toyo and Honda would make all the money wouldnt they?

 

The Prius doesn't get good hy mpg because it is a Hybrid.It gets good hy mpg because it has a .26 cd in a car that doesn't have a lot of frontal area.It also has a small 4 cyl ice that does better than the usual 30% efficiency because it is high compression(expansion) with much lower compression "compression" because of the late intake closing.I have seen 37% mentioned as its efficiency(I doubt the 37%-seems too high to me).
I am certain that Autoweek didn't "rig" this test.Why would they.Toyota is a much bigger advertiser than VW,SO WHY WOULD THEY RIG THE RESULTS??NO WAY WAS IT RIGGED. I question the results because the VW did a bit better than it did in CRs HY and trip tests(not outlandishly better, but better),BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY THE PRIUS DID MUCH MORE POORLY(42MPG I think)) than it did in CRs Hy(49 I think) and trip(47 or 48 I think).This sort of test-with two imprecise fillups determining the amount of fuel used- has a wide margin of error(Maybe +- 8 mpg or so).
EVERY OTHER TEST WE HAVE SEEN OF THE VW VS THE PRIUS has the Prius "winning".More importantly, there were other HY tests-done more precisely-that give different results.
This test also ignore fuel costs-Diesel is about 10% more expensive than 87 octane.
I am a fan of TDIs.I was greatly impressed recently when another auto rag got 15.5 mpg from a huge-7400 lbs 4X4 1 TON Chevy Duramax while doing various performance tests(towing 9600 lbs doing 0-60 and 1/4 miles testing with the 9600 load).It was 1 mpg better than the Ford and 2 mpg better than the Dodge TDI.
If this Duramax was split to a 4 cyl placed in a 4400 lbs full sized 2wd truck it could get 18 mpg city and 25 mpg hy-easily.It would have 300 ft-lbs and 180 hp-plenty of power.
Diesels-TDI or not- are great.They are a much better answer to FE(if the EPA and CA regs can be met at a reasonable cost) than expensive full hybrids like the Prius.We always forget that the Prius doesn't get great mpg just because it is a Hybrid.A Corolla auto gets 40 mpg hy-a Civic auto gets 43 mpg hy,heck an Accord 4 cyl auto get 38 mpg hy.Just an eyeballing of the spaceship looking Prius would tell you it will beat those very impressive numbers.It has considerably lower CD with no more frontal area with a more efficient,smaller ICE.
We also ignore the fact that the VW isn't really equivalent to a Prius-it is a DOG- acceleration wise-12 sec 0-60 vs 10.5. 12 seconds is very slow for a current vehicle.It also has less useful interior length/room.Of course, no reason the Jetta could be a hatchback, but it would be even plumper, of course.
TDIs are great-they will be able to use biodiesel- of course there isn't any reason a Prius could use ethanol-ethanol is a great fuel, and manufacturers can make FFV vehicles for the same cost as pure gasoline vehicles(check the FFV Titans-same price,or maybe $25 more).
The Jetta is fine, but better testing has consistently given different results.Luck,Charlie
PS-Besides, who does hy driving only.The Prius got 35 mpg city vs 2 for the TDI Jetta in CRs harsh city loop.A huge difference!!The cost of these two is very,very close-with the Prius having a HUGE advantage in reliability!!VWs are pitiful in JD Power surveys.
PPS- A quick review Prius +
1)Same PRICE
2)Much better acceleration
3) More carrying volume
4)Much better overall FE-even if we accept this hy result
5)Fuel cost 10% less per gallon
6) Much quieter
7)Smells better
8) Less smoky soot-carcinogen
9) Much more reliable
The Jetta's +
1) Better hy fuel economy in a single test done with the very precise "fillup until it clicks method" of fuel measurement.
Let me weigh these"facts". It might take me a NANOSECOND to make my choice.
PPPS-The above is a bit tongue in cheek- but easy to defend!!There are excellent TDI cars out there-many are GMs,Toyotas,Peugeots,GMs-BUT THE JETTA ISN'T ONE OF THEM!!Unfortunately, it is our-USA-only choice right now!!

 

The fact that the Prius has low smog-forming emissions does not cause its fuel efficiency to be read falsely higher than it is on the EPA test, the LEV/ULEV/SULEV pollution ratings are based on Nox, Carbon Monoxide, and other toxic or smog-forming pollutants. The EPA determines fuel economy by measuring the amount of carbon dioxide emitted which is always in proportion to fuel consumption, and is a more accurate measurement than than filling up a gas tank.

The problem with the EPA test is that the driving is highly unrealistic as it does not take into account conditions that 95%+ of the drivers in the real world actually see on their commute such as congestion, hot/cold temperatures (efficiency loss due to a/c or engine warm-up time), short trips, 75mph speed-limit highways (as opposed to 55 when the test began), or hilly commutes. Their test is somewhat of an ideal scenario that must people will never see on a regular basis.

 

gang

excellent post and awesome points of view.



Everyone who has posted has a valid point of view. For my money, these guys ran this test to showcase gas and diesel cars to potential buyers. I admit there is a lot more angles to it than just that.

 

LOL this is funny.

you really think a gas powred hybrid is better for the envoronment and we humans than a modern diesel! I'm not so sure i can go along with that.

Diesel engines do generally emit higher amounts of NOx and particles than equivalent gasoline powered even though CO and HC emissions may be lower, and total emissions are lower due to much better fuel consumption,
now thats compared to a non hybrid.

The current TDI Volkswagens typically emit slightly somewhat lower than the Tier 1 limits for NOx and particles (around 0.052 g/mi of particulate matter [PM] and 0.82 g/mi of NOx per EPA data), but the CO and HC emissions are far below the Tier 1 limits and well below the emissions of the equivalent gasoline engine. my gues is from the data i have, the current year model is doing better than that, this was for my 2002 TDI

What is not talked about much is that most of the unregulated toxic gaseous emissions tend to be lower for diesel engines. For example, benzene (which is a known carcinogen) is lower in diesels by nearly an order of magnitude (i.e., factor of ten) than an equivalent gasoline engine. Diesels also tend to be significantly lower in emissions of alkenes (e.g., ethene), carbonyls (e.g., formaldehyde), and semivolatiles like polyaromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs, many of which are known or suspected carcinogens).

Did you know CARB (and to a slightly lesser extent EPA) focuses on reducing NOx. But atmospheric scientist Gary Whitten of ICF Consulting notes that if the tradeoff of reducing NOx is to increase hydrocarbon and carbon monoxide emissions, the environment would be poorly served. The reason, according to Whitten, is that a reduction in hydrocarbon and carbon monoxide emissions has a much greater beneficial impact on ozone formation than an equivalent reduction in NOx. Whitten concludes, "The effectiveness of THC for reducing ozone in these simulations must be as much as 8 times better than NOx reductions on an equal percentage of the mobile emissions basis." Since diesel engines tend to have significantly lower emissions of CO and HC (VOCs), while generally higher emissions of NOx, one could conclude based on these recent studies that an increasing market share of diesel-powered cars and light trucks will have a positive impact on ground level ozone rather that the negative impact which has always been assumed.

The emission levels from diesel engines tend to remain more-or-less
constant throughout the useful life of the engine, whereas gasoline engines have many more emission-related components which deteriorate and lead to higher and higher emissions as the engine gets older. thats right... the older your hybrid is, the dirtier it gets!!!

On the particulates, the next vw in 2008 (and the ones currently being sold in europe) have a partiulate filter. so PM is VERY low. (again cant be done here becuase we dont have low sulfer diesel yet ... where is by biodiesel!)

what we should try to do is compare CO and HC emissions per mile of a 2006 hybrid to a 2006 diesel car. CO has been shown to be mor of a factor in ozone production than Nox! Now i know that this might be an impossible thing to figure out for the laymen.but it's where the rubber meets the road when it comes tho the envoronment and ozone etc.

sitting in traffic behind a modern diesel car.... lol, my guess is you would never know. its funny, somone talked about smoke and smell. there is no such thing on a modern diesel car. you cant smell a thing and there is no smoke. well... unless you are running biodiesel, then there might be a slight sweet aroma well thats more with frenchfry oil

Last but FAR from least. a moden diesel can run on renewable fuel sources.
think of the impact that has on the envoronment. the amount of emissions that created in just producing the fuel used in a hybrid.

As for me, I'm gonna stay with my sweet smelling car and save the envoronment while doing it.

 

Bio-diesel does intrigue me. Had the OilandWaterproject.com bio-diesel truck stop near our town (I actually know the sister of one of the drivers/proponents). They converted an old Japanese fire truck. Pretty cool. Check 'em out on the web:
http://www.oilandwaterproject.com/

Anyway, my experience so far here in the good ol' US of A is absolutely negative when it comes to diesel. As would be a majority of the diesel non-believers. How does one overcome the fact that low-sulphur diesel ain't here (in large enough quantities) to make me "see" and "smell" the improvement?

Still, just today, out for lunch...big NEW diesel trucks, small diesel sedans (older, not new), belching and clattering along. How would I even begin to think ...hey, that's better than my Prius (very low emissions and EXTREMELY quiet)?

Maybe like hybrids, these new diesels will take awhile to win over the non-believers.

Cheers,
Curt.

 

very good points of view

i would like to know more about the hybid diesel. According to many who post, that would be the ultimate.