A lot of hybrid-bashing is done by diesel fans because their fringe niche of fuel economy and torque was displaced by hybrids. They talked up a storm about how diesels would take over the market and save us from global warming and dependence on foreign oil. The new Jetta TDI was supposed to get up to 60 highway/48 city and instead got 40/29.

And in the Edmunds test, the touring Prius was almost equal to the old Jetta TDI in its strengths (high speed highway driving). Had the Prius been a non-touring model and the Jetta an automatic, the Jetta probably would have been demolished on a pure miles/gal basis before even considering how much more expensive diesel is or its emissions.

The diesel fans are strangely quiet now, trying to figure out how to put a spin on things.

 

Assume a 1000-mile highway trip...

2009 Jetta 2.5L gas 5-speed
1000 miles @ EPA 29 MPG highway = 34.483 gals x $3.749/gal = $129.28

2009 Jetta 2.0L diesel 5-speed
1000 miles @ EPA 41 MPG highway = 24.390 gals x $5.299/gal = $129.24

So even at your area's highly inflated diesel prices, the diesel Jetta will still be able to break even with the gasser on the trip -- and only stop for fuel once, instead of twice.

And the new 2009 TDI has a particulate filter, which combined with the new ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel, eliminates what little smoke and smell was left on previous diesels.

 

I guess the "spin" would be that the EPA fuel mileage ratings for diesels have typically been well below what most typically get in real-world driving. EPA has acknowledge this and that their test cycles underestimate diesel vehicle fuel mileage by 4.3% under the "old" rating (pre-2008), and nearly 20% under the "new" ratings (Final Technical Support Document -
Fuel Economy Labeling of Motor Vehicle Revisions to Improve Calculation of Fuel Economy Estimates). We'll have to see if this holds true for the 2009 Jetta TDI.

I know (anecdotal as it may be) that my 2002 Jetta TDI is rated by EPA under the "new" ratings as 44/35. We get an average of over 47 mpg which includes my wife's daily 6 mile commute (each way) about 3 miles of which are through a small city with about 12 traffic lights. It would take an extraordinary effort to get mileage as low as the "new" EPA estimates for us anyway.

At any rate, getting even marginally better fuel mileage with the 2009 TDI (vs. the 2006) is actually impressive given that it now has 140 hp (40% higher than the 100 hp for the 2006) and nearly that much increase in torque, plus the fact that it is certified Tier 2 Bin 5.

I personally have never bashed hybrids. I think hybrid technology is very exciting. My only problem with the current generation of hybrids is that they use the wrong fuel.

 

So the question begs, Kevin, if all other costs are equal on the gas vs. Diesel debate you just pointed, what would the point be of paying the premimum for the diesel engine?
What is the cost of replacing the filter?
How do these numbers compare in the city, my driving is 95% or higher city.
How do they compare with the automatic, I would not under ANY circumstances consider a manual transmission.
How does VW reliability (not to good per Consumer Reports) and resale compare to Toyota and Honda.
And, most importantly....is it the car I want?

 

I just went into the VW site, there are no diesel Jetta's listed there, I don't understand why you are comparing a car that does not even exist to one that....I don't know DOES..... at least I know I can go into a Toyota or Honda (US) web site and spec out a hybrid right now...

 

The advantages of diesel engines are far more than just MPGs: superior low-end torque, long-term durability, excellent driving range per tankful, fewer routine maintenance items, etc. And as mentioned, the EPA mileage ratings are known and admitted by even the EPA itself to be inaccurately low for diesels, compared to what the vehicles actually achieve.

The current Jetta and Rabbit have above-average reliability according to Consumer Reports (much improved compared to the previous generation) and the resale value of diesel VWs is among the best of all vehicles. If you bought a new Jetta TDI in 2006, you could sell it today at or even above the original sticker price!

 

The new 2009 VW Jetta TDI Clean Diesel is arriving at dealers right now as we speak. In fact it is actually ahead of schedule by a few months. It is available as the new Jetta SportWagen station wagon, as well as the sedan.

 

All good arguments for a hybrid without the smell.....who knows, maybe a dealer will actually get one someday soon...
You never did address my issues of the manual trans, the city mileage, the smell (I know they dont anymore) and the fact that I just don't like the looks of the car.....more curious, why are you even in the GREENHYBRID group? this is not a alternate fuel group....remindes me of the MAC fanboys in the VISTA groups saying how much they hate VISTA....at any rate, I am done with this string there is no way you are ever going to convince me to consider a diesel, and, I apparently will never sway you to a hybrid.

 

A diesel is at its best for highway driving with a manual transmission.
A gas hybrid is at its best for city driving with a CVT (automatic) transmission.
It's good to have both choices available to consumers. Neither is perfect for everybody. Most diesel proponents realize this, and hopefully most hybrid proponents do as well.

The diesel exhaust smell of the past came mostly from sulfur in the fuel. Eliminate the sulfur and you eliminate the stink. Diesel fuel in the USA has recently dropped from 500 ppm sulfur content down to 15 ppm -- that's a 97% reduction. (Prior to 1993, the standard was 5000 ppm -- unfortunately, that's the era most people have in their minds when they think of diesel vehicles.)

I see people over on TDIclub with the GreenHybrid.com mileage tags in their signatures, and I thought I'd see what the fuss is about. (But notice that TDIclub members are not putting TDIclub tags in their signatures here. From what I can see, the cross-promotion is strictly one-sided.)

Like I said, the diesel vs. hybrid choice is largely based on driving habits. I simply don't do enough city driving to take advantage of a hybrid/CVT powertrain. Plus, with the curvy, hilly roads I drive on every day, I need a car with sharp handling and a manual transmission -- a combination which is not offered by any hybrid on the U.S. market today.

p.s. Even most PC fanboys hate Vista.

 

Thanks for the reference:
I appreciate the reference:There were many interesting quotes about diesels:
I notice the EPA is planning to level the playing field so diesels and alternatively fueled vehicles are subject to the same standard. But you may be thinking of table II-9, which compares user submitted ORNL data samples to the EPA numbers. Perhaps we should use the GreenHybrid.com, user submitted database too?

• ORNL user reports: 46.1 (239 samples)
• GreenHybrid reports: 47.4 (1,628 samples Prius II)

By using GreenHybrid reports, our database, the Prius II comes in 47.4 vs 46 or 3% better than EPA. This modifies table II.9:

1. gasoline (2,315 samples): 1.3%
2. hybrid (GreenHybrid data, 1,623 samples): 3.0%
3. diesel (cold test exemption, 88 samples): 5.7%

This EPA rule making source is interesting and I can understand why including the same cold CO testing will impact the diesel ratings. Diesels have lost a previous exemption that gave them an unfair advantage. Only 88 samples stand behind the diesel claims ... don't suppose there are more diesel user samples around somewhere?

Bob Wilson