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  #11  
Old 02-10-2008, 10:43 PM
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Default Re: More hybrid skeptics

"the misinformed craze for hybrid vehicles"...ah, phrases like that cheer up my day. However I rearely see such in print in reviewed journals, so became curious.

Neither could I find a way to sneak into the Intl J of Auto Tech and Management. The Intl J of Auto Tech appears to be an entirely different thing. It is all in Korean so I could not make any headway there either.

So we are just going to have to hope that their science is OK eh?

DAS, misinformed crazie
 
  #12  
Old 02-11-2008, 04:52 AM
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Default Re: More hybrid skeptics

We are looking at finding an affordable copy of the article. I suspect some of our European friends may have access to the article so I'll ask in the Yahoogroup. But I am reminded of the risk of a 'circular authority' . . . one cites another, sites another and eventually comes back to the first 'authority.' Has this 'journal' become a closed clique of reviewers and authors sharing the same opinions?

From a big picture, if this remains an isolate, inaccessible article, I'm not going to lose much sleep over it. But if we see mainstream media pick it up and cite it as a source, then I'll have to rethink. Fading to obscurity is fine by me.

Bob Wilson
 
  #13  
Old 02-11-2008, 07:57 AM
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Default Re: More hybrid skeptics

Originally Posted by bwilson4web
We are looking at finding an affordable copy of the article. I suspect some of our European friends may have access to the article so I'll ask in the Yahoogroup. But I am reminded of the risk of a 'circular authority' . . . one cites another, sites another and eventually comes back to the first 'authority.' Has this 'journal' become a closed clique of reviewers and authors sharing the same opinions?

From a big picture, if this remains an isolate, inaccessible article, I'm not going to lose much sleep over it. But if we see mainstream media pick it up and cite it as a source, then I'll have to rethink. Fading to obscurity is fine by me.

Bob Wilson
Research is always good. Keeping an open mind is also good. We know products come and go. Some times the public just likes it, some times the product is marketed in such a way that the public thinks they like it.

Ethanol production from food stuff (re: corn) has just taken a beating. What to do? Stop buying the stuff?

So where's this rant going? I have a feeling some of those, "insiders" have what I might call something approaching, "***** envy" in regards to our hybrids. Ten years into it, they're looking at the Prius saying, "Tsk, tsk. ." as they roll around getting 10, 15, 25, mpg and we roll around getting our 40, 45, 55 mpg.

Just a bunch of whiners.
 
  #14  
Old 02-11-2008, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by KenG
For this to make any sense, you have to believe that fuel cell cars will be viable and economic before electric or plug in hybrids. And that an economic way to generate and transport hydrogen will be developed. I'd rather put my money on battery technology.

"Sustainably produced hydrogen" is a real hoot. Not only is this unlikely, there isn't even a concept out there other than from sustainably produced electricity - which could be more efficiently transported and directly used in a battery powered car.
Well said. Thermodynamics tells you that H2 fuel cells are far less efficient than battery-electric vehicles.
http://www.efcf.com/reports/E17.pdf
 
  #15  
Old 02-11-2008, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by xoham
Well said. Thermodynamics tells you that H2 fuel cells are far less efficient than battery-electric vehicles.
http://www.efcf.com/reports/E17.pdf
To boot, throw in building infrastructure.
 
  #16  
Old 02-11-2008, 02:58 PM
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Unhappy Re: More hybrid skeptics

FRAUD: Do Not Buy This Paper!


A good introduction soon fell into a mix of outdated sources followed by assertions contradicted by data tables within the same paper. One or two errors are forgivable but after reading the whole 'paper' I realized this paper is fatally flawed.

I'll expand on this over the next couple of days but high on list are:
  • Diesels good on highway are suddenly always better.
  • 2002 cost source - ignores Toyota reporting operational profits and quadruples production.
  • China pursues hybrids for "unexplained reasons" - like the most populated country on earth knows there is not enough oil.
  • India is ignored inspite of active efforts to pursue hybrid technology.
Ok, I went ahead and bought the $40 article after finding more than one reference to it. As I started reading it, I now realize the problem was the original authors. They start out nice but the body of the paper does departs from any sort of careful research and disciplined study:
This paper deals with the hypothesis that the recent growing craze for hybrid vehicles in the USA and Europe is simply a temporary step between the traditional technology based on gasoline and diesel engines and the forthcoming of full electric vehicles, probably with hydrogen-powered fuel cells. Such an assumption is shared by several observers from professional as well as academic backgrounds (Ashley, 2002; Hekkert and Vandenhoed, 2004). Hekkert and Vandenhoed (2004) is the most radical challenging the idea that the emergence of hybrid vehicles might be at the expense of the fuel-cell vehicle. Chanaron and Orselli (2002) suggest that hydrogen fuel cells will not be marketable in high volumes before at least 2025 and that most, if not all, information released so far are pure manipulation and marketing by the hydrogen lobby. The quest for low emission (clean) and high-mileage vehicles is on its way and will surely remain at the top of the OEM’s agenda.

Because new facts and events occur on a daily basis, such a paper is inevitably out-dated as far as factual information and data are concerned. They have been updated up to the end of 2006. It has to be pointed out that the research is targeting only passenger cars, SUV and light commercial vehicles.
. . .
As I read more and more of the report, it is clear the reviewers made a number of simple errors in part because the authors failed to keep all facts and data current. For example, they cite the conclusions of a 2002 report on hybrid economics that claims hybrids can not be produced without subsidies (pp. 277.) Yet Toyota reported in 2004 to be making an operational profit on each Prius. Small wonder that Prius sales exploded in 2005 as Toyota could afford to produce as many as could be sold!

One or two errors are forgivable but this report is so flawed as to cross the line from research to advocacy and especially poorly reasoned at that. Internal inconsistencies make you wonder where their peer reviewers were. Substandard, below "C" work!

Thanks,
Bob Wilson
 

Last edited by bwilson4web; 02-11-2008 at 05:57 PM.
  #17  
Old 02-12-2008, 04:54 AM
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FRAUD .... One or two errors are forgivable but this report is so flawed as to cross the line from research to advocacy and especially poorly reasoned at that. Internal inconsistencies make you wonder where their peer reviewers were. Substandard, below "C" work!
You should file a complaint with your credit card company that "the item was never delivered" and "I could not access the download page & got no report" and that you'd like to reverse the charge.

No sense paying people for crap. "Satisfaction guaranteed" still has meaning in this country, and clearly you were not satisfied with this piece of excrement.
Originally Posted by KenG
"Sustainably produced hydrogen" is a real hoot. Not only is this unlikely, there isn't even a concept out there other than from sustainably produced electricity - which could be more efficiently transported and directly used in a battery powered car.
Well said.

Rather than use electricity to make hydrogen to fuel a car;
why not just use the electricity directly in a battery-powered vehicle?
 

Last edited by rrrrrroger; 02-12-2008 at 05:06 AM.
  #18  
Old 02-13-2008, 04:04 AM
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Default Re: More hybrid skeptics

The fraud is less a legal term but my impression of the misleading reviewers and the poor quality of the paper. I did get a research paper by the two authors who sad to say, wrote a clunker. This is the feedback I sent to European web sites promoting the paper:
Having paid the $40, I'm able to quote and criticize the original report, something missing from the current reviewers including those selling this useless report:

The authors report on pp. 277 that "According to Ashley (2002), OEMs ""must subsidize current hybrid car models heavily to make them affordable"" " Unfortunately, the authors failed to report from "consumerguideauto" that, "Toyota officials recently told Bloomberg News that Prius is turning a small per-unit profit . . ." In fact, the author's hybrid sales figure on pp. 273, "Sales of HEV vehicles in the USA," shows a greater than 10 fold increase between 2002 and 2006 with no explanation of how the 2002 "subsidies" are maintained and Toyota hasn't gone broke (" Sûr nous perdons l'argent dans chaque vente mais le succès vient du volume !")

The authors put conditions on diesel efficiency pp. 276 with "when comparing with modern diesel vehicles with high pressure direct injection and turbo charging, HEVs lose out when it comes to constant driving over longer distances." This well qualified and limited diesel performance, by no means the standard for all diesels, presumes cities and urban driving do not exist. It is a fact taken out of context by the reviewers making inflated diesel claims. The authors didn't emphasize the diesel limitations enough.

There are other errors including inadequate references, pp. 279 to "Les Echos, 5/10/206"; misleading appendices pp. 287 mixing models to mask hybrid efficiency with vehicle classes having no hybrids; or pp. 288 equating the "Smart for two CDI (diesel)" and a Prius instead of the Honda Insight, another hybrid, two-seater.

The paper flaws are only matched by reviewers who cherry pick whatever nonsense they wish to echo. Worse, there is no synthesis, no value added analysis as shown by repeating the 2002 subsidy claim while HEV sales increase by an order of magnitude. Rather than advancing our understanding, this paper sweeps together a collection of outdated and improperly qualified reports with no synthesis. Thus they remain bewildered by a Chinese hybrid market rather than observing the obvious.

With this paper, I've bought $40 of rubish and would warn serious people away from it. Furthermore, I do not care for the unethical panders of this poor excuse of for research. The authors Chanaron and Teske may be serious people but this must not be their best work.

Bob Wilson
That pretty well sums it up. There are more problems with this report that a careful and detailed reading would expose. But there comes a time when you grow tried of beating the spot where the dead horse was dragged away from.

The time is approaching when I may have to start writing my book of hybrids. The sad thing is I know it will take at least a year and that on the day it is released, it will be out of date. But there are so many interesting and pioneering efforts that otherwise will be lost in this transient age. . . .

Bob Wilson

(1) http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/02/m...ment-101817858 - another copycat!
 

Last edited by bwilson4web; 02-13-2008 at 05:56 PM.
  #19  
Old 02-14-2008, 04:51 AM
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The authors put conditions on diesel efficiency pp. 276 with "when comparing with modern diesel vehicles with high pressure direct injection and turbo charging, HEVs lose out when it comes to constant driving over longer distances." This well qualified and limited diesel performance, by no means the standard for all diesels, presumes cities and urban driving do not exist.
I think it's reasonable to call it standard. The tough regulations imposed by the CARB and the U.S. EPA have effectively banned all diesels except for the direct-injection, turbo-charged kind. The non-DI, non-turbo cars simply do not exist in North American 2008 models.

Also, if one is going to compare the "bleeding-edge" hybrid technology, than would should use "bleeding-edge" technology available for diesel, gasoline, and so on. That's consistent.

And finally:

They really make no mention whatsoever of urban driving? That's quite surprising. Most hybrids have the advantage there because of their EV modes. (Of course it's worth pointing out that diesels can also be hybridized, thus achieving the same EV-like performance in city driving.)

The U.S. EPA performed a study using the GREET(?) model, and they reached most of the same conclusions as your $40 study. They found that gasoline hybrids are very efficient, but that diesel hybrids were the best overall (both urban and suburban).

So that provides at least some backing for the conclusion.
 
  #20  
Old 02-14-2008, 06:59 AM
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Default Re: More hybrid skeptics

Originally Posted by rrrrrroger
I think it's reasonable to call it standard.
Ok, I checked the list from www.fueleconomy.gov and found these diesel models:
  • Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec 6 cyl, 3 L, Automatic 7-spd, Diesel
  • Mercedes-Benz ML320 CDI 4matic 6 cyl, 3 L, Automatic 7-spd, Diesel
  • Mercedes-Benz R320 CDI 4matic 6 cyl, 3 L, Automatic 7-spd, Diesel
  • Mercedes-Benz GL320 CDI 4matic 6 cyl, 3 L, Automatic 7-spd, Diesel
  • Jeep Grand Cherokee 2WD 6 cyl, 3 L, Automatic 5-spd, Diesel
  • Volkswagen Touareg 10 cyl, 5 L, Automatic (S6), Diesel
Which ones meet the technical qualifications of "high pressure direct injection and turbo charging?"

Originally Posted by rrrrrroger
The tough regulations imposed by the CARB and the U.S. EPA have effectively banned all diesels except for the direct-injection, turbo-charged kind. The non-DI, non-turbo cars simply do not exist in North American 2008 models.
Check out the Jeep, which according to the EPA, has no turbo charger.

Originally Posted by rrrrrroger
Also, if one is going to compare the "bleeding-edge" hybrid technology, than would should use "bleeding-edge" technology available for diesel, gasoline, and so on. That's consistent.
If we are going to compare 'concept' cars, then let's include the plug-in hybrids. But in engineering, we work hard to compare like-to-like and it makes a lot more sense to compare vehicles that can be bought because they are on the show room floor. We can both test drive them on Saturday and the EPA values are readily available.

Originally Posted by rrrrrroger
They really make no mention whatsoever of urban driving?
The direct quote, the whole paragraph:
Originally Posted by Int. J. Automotive Technology and Management, Vol. 7, No. 4, 2007, pp. 276
With many different HEV models being marketed in the USA, many practical tests showed controversial efficiency results: Specifically, when comparing with modern diesel vehicles with high pressure direct injection and turbo charging, HEVs lose out when it comes to constant driving over longer distances. Other drawbacks to the consumer are smaller trunk capacities due to volume taken by the batteries or the higher initial purchase price. HEV technology offers advantages in stop-and-go traffic, which is cities.
Had they written, ". . . modern diesel vehicles with high pressure direct injection and turbo charging, HEVs lose out when it comes to constant driving over longer distances but offer advantages in stop-and-go traffic which is cities." There would be no problem and we would be in complete agreement. But notice they inserted the perfectly useless statement about trunks and cost between these two critically related pieces of information. Sure enough, this is what some of the diesel advocates do, claim highway mileage as if urban driving is unimportant . . . like "If I buy a 70mpg Lupo . . ." whose combined mileage is quite a bit less:

http://www.carsplusplus.com/specs200...upo_14_tdi.php

Originally Posted by rrrrrroger
That's quite surprising. Most hybrids have the advantage there because of their EV modes. (Of course it's worth pointing out that diesels can also be hybridized, thus achieving the same EV-like performance in city driving.)
Not really since we've got a lot of experience with hybrid skeptics. We are used to them taking things out of context or using semantics to mislead, Chanaron and Teske, or making stuff up, "CNW Marketing" and "Daily Mail".

Originally Posted by rrrrrroger
The U.S. EPA performed a study using the GREET(?) model, and they reached most of the same conclusions as your $40 study. They found that gasoline hybrids are very efficient, but that diesel hybrids were the best overall (both urban and suburban).

So that provides at least some backing for the conclusion.
Perhaps you are referencing,"Well-to-Wheels Energy and Emissions Impacts of Vehicle/Fuel Systems, Development and Applications of the GREET model" by Michael ****, Argonne National Laboratory, April 14, 2003, pp. 32 clearly shows the gasoline hybrid beating the diesels:


You'll notice the non-existent, diesel hybrid competes. The 'on the showroom floor' non-hybrid diesels are the first column.

Bob Wilson
 

Last edited by bwilson4web; 02-14-2008 at 09:02 AM.


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