The DOE's National Renewable Energy Laboratory says hybrids have saved 230 million gallons of fuel since being introduced to the market

A Good Article in Business Week
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/co...724_501871.htm?

 

You mean a Prius really does use less energy than a Hummer H2? Who could have imagined?

 

Especially if you only drive the Prius for 100,000 miles (when, as is well known, hybrids automatically turn back into pumpkins) and you drive the Hummer for 300,000.

--doug

 

No!! I am aghast!

What I want to know though, does a Prius or HCH (we can leave out any other car here), get better mileage than a Civic or Corolla-- and yes, I know that these are not all the same cars. I just want to know.

--des

 

Good question, Des, I've wondered this in the past, too. Experience with my HCH II versus many friend's equivalent non-hybrid small cars has made me a believer, and unequivocally, I would say, the hybrids are getting better mileage than other compacts/subcompacts. If you look at median mileage numbers here on GH, you can see the vast majority of HCH II's get 45 mpg or better. (Would that mine were one of them! But we're getting there.) An even vaster majority of Priuses get 45 mpg or better, better than 50% getting 48 mpg or better. In contrast, real-world numbers on the Civic and the Corrolla are high-30s/40 at best for most drivers. (Although I have to admit I'm drawing this not from a database but from various driver accounts -- friends, web postings, magazine long-term tests.) Even the Fit and Yaris barely get into the 40s for mileage, and those are tiny underpowered pathetic things. (Even the Smart only gets mid 50s, and it's *tiny*.)

And there's another way to look at it: in terms of high-FE *capability*, hybrids give you so much more headroom on the max-FE number: it's much easier to blow away EPA numbers with a hybrid than with a gas-only.

However, it's worth pointing out that the HF model of the early/mid-90s Civic would reliably get mid-50s on gas-only technology; and a couple diesels (Volkswagen, specifically) will currently get mid-40s just like the HCH II. Such examples prove that you don't have to have a hybrid to hit 50+ mpg. But of course, the HF was slower, smaller, and a bit lighter than the current Civic; and unless you're running biofuels, you still have emissions problems with the diesel.

On the whole, these seem to be the two-fold magic of hybrids over gas-only cars: 1) higher maximum FE potential, and 2) allowing you to run a bigger, more powerful car for the same FE.

--doug

 

Ok, I have another question (you did a good job answering that one). No, I wouldn't even consider driving a Smart car in the US, i think it's just way way too little. IF everyone drove one it would be different i expect. But I digress.

The question would be that infamous one that i have heard is not one you are really supposed to ask and that one is: If gas goes to $4 or $5 a gallon (or even if it stays at $3-- does anyone here think that is going to happen), do you get your money back from the premium for the hybrid (I am guessing that is $3,000-4,000-- but it is kind of hard to tell)? I went on a blue book site last night and tried to really tell what the technology itself costs and that's about what I came up with. You have to pull off all the little spoiler and other little things and see what it is.

Anyway, *does* it pay for itself? If so how long? I have many people telling me it won't pay for itself, and that it is just so much of a myth and even on priuschat they will basically say that it doesn't. But I have my own doubts-- esp if gas prices go up. I'm a newbie hypermiler as well btw. Anyone want to do the math for me, as I am not so hot at it. :-)
Thanks,

--des

 

I thought you might be interested in this online fuel savings calculator which will tell you how much money you'll save compared to another car with different gas mileage.

In fact, comparing my new HCH-II to my old gas hog over a lifespan of 150,000 miles, I will save on the order of $9000 assuming gas stays at 3 bucks (which isn't likely).

 

Whether or not one can make up the price difference depends on many factors like where you are located and how long you plan on keeping the car. If you plan on driving it for 150K or more, I think you will make up for sure as Tom puts it. And if you live in location that puts little wear on the body of the car and you are hypermiling your hybrid, that 150K really correspond to only 80-100K mile on the engine. That engine is probably good for another 50K and perhaps replacing with the latest battery technology then would be cheap enough such that you could get 100+mpg vehicle at a modest cost!! ...he he he....as you can see I am a dreamer, but its not too much out of the imagination though. 10 years is plenty of time for innovation especially when the competition is building up like it is today.


Dreaming aside, I have been curious about true cost of ownership. Edmunds provides true cost of ownership but it does not allow for user input like cost of gas and the years of ownership. Lets compare the cost of ownership for 2003 prius and corolla that are on the market today. According to edmunds the difference of the market value is $5500 (averaged of private and dealer). Not sure what price difference was between the two car in 2003, but if we use the current '07 price difference of the base packages that would be $7750. That means in 4 years, you would lose $2250 for the prius. Between 2003 and 2007, gas price averaged nationally at $2.50 ???. If you drove 60K miles in that four years, your gas savings would be $1560 based on old EPA estimate (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/). Put in the your own estimate of gas price into the fuel savings calculator and you'll see your savings. Thanks Tom!

Bottomline, it would be hard to make up that difference if you paid way above premium for your hybrid unless gas price soar beyond the current $3/gallon. If you paid close to MSRP and you are hypermiling your hybrid, I think you should be smiling everytime you see a corolla pass by.

 

You alluded to it in your opening sentence this is not a question that even needs answering. The decision to buy/not buy is based on the vehicle alone, its features, its comfort, its driving characteristics. It been rehashed and rehashed as you well know but in the final analysis you either like the vehicle or you don't.

I've found that people that require a rigorous 'payback analysis' are actually doing it to justify why they shouldn't buy this hybrid or that one. Those that love the idea of it; those that love the technological advancement; those that love the features and the utility have only a passing thought about 'payback', "Oh yeah I do save money in gas too."

Those that are skeptical or afraid of the technology look for some specific quantifiable reason not to buy.

But to answer your question..
..the HCH is a no brainer with a $3200 'premium' and a $2100 Tax credit from the IRS, the recovery period for most will be about a year or two.
..the Prius is even more so because there is no non-hybrid Prius. it is what it is.
..the TCH vs the XLE 4c has about a $2800 premium, and here there is a $650 potential tax credit. Probably a couple of years for the 'payback'.

But......you also brought up another subject that few in the public consider very seriously. I actually believe that fuel will be near $6 /gal within the nest 5-7 yrs. Mid next decade our own usage along with that of China and India will begin to bump heads in the world petrol markets. We use 25% of the world's oil today. In 5-7 years we won't have that 'luxury'. To top that off many source report that peak oil is nearly upon us and that we've reach the apex in the supply curve. This is my opinion also so I'm glad that I am prepared now for $6/gal fuel.

 

This is the most common error in this type of analysis. First the 2007 figures you are comparing the wrong two vehicles!!!! The Prius is a 4 door hatch, the Corolla is a 4 door sedan. In terms os space, utility and configuration the Prius should be compared to the Matrix XR. But to make the vehicles equal as much as possible.. To the Matrix you have to add

Alloy wheels
ABS
VSC/Trac
Side and curtain airbags

Now the equipment is about equal: Matrix XR vs Prius Pck #2

Now compare the pricing of these two and the relative FE's.
Pricing:
Matrix XR with above equip adds is $19650 MSRP ( Edmunds TMV is $18160 )
Prius Pck #2 is $23400 ( Edmunds TMV is $22500 )

The comparative fuel economies are:
Matrix XR AT... 25 / 31 / 27 Avg
Prius CVT....... 48 / 45 / 46 Avg

Fuel USAGE per 15000 mi driven annually
Matrix XR... 556 gal
Prius #2..... 326 gal ... saving 230 gal each year.


But ... it's much less complex. All this analysis doesn't matter one wit. Why? You save nothing, it's nearly a wash no matter which choice you make. How's that?

Vehicle cost + fuel for 5 years ( 75000 mi ) @ $3/gal
Matrix XR : $18160 + $8340 = $26500 total cost of transportation
Prius #2 : $22500 + $4890 = $27390 total cost of transportation

Choose whichever one suits you best your total out of pocket costs will be about the same either way.