339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
#21
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
Originally Posted by CamelFilters
It's all good
Right now I just cant seem to put the two pieces together: people who are concerned about emissions and 339HP 0-60 in 5(-6) sec car
Right now I just cant seem to put the two pieces together: people who are concerned about emissions and 339HP 0-60 in 5(-6) sec car
Originally Posted by CamelFilters
"Reduced" emssions is also relative, toyota claims it's compared to a V8. I wouldnt claim a V6 with 273HP a significant enough engine to reduce emissions. I have never heard anyone with a 273HP toyota camry/avalon brag about their "reduced emissions", as someone said in the earlier thread, what's the difference between this engine and a regular V6 engine.
http://www.cars.com/carsapp/national...ons_popup.tmpl
Emmissions is not necessarily tied directly to MPG.
Originally Posted by CamelFilters
Again, you cant have a four banger in a car this big. So i must say that People will be buying this for other reasons. Personally, if people are very concerned about reducing emissions, the only engine option is a 4 cylinder with a hybrid motor
#22
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
Originally Posted by zimbop
Also, I don't believe there's anything magic about the hybrid as an emissions scrubber. X amount of gasoline burned in a hybrid ICE has relatively the same emissions as X amount of gas burned in a ICE without hybrid. You have to burn less gas to make less exhaust, or am I missing something? Getting more power for the same emissions is not going to eliminate any smog, it will just help us make smog faster.
Likewise, this GS 450h is also an AT-PZEV if I'm not mistaken. Yet it gets "ordinary" mileage.
#23
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
Also, I don't believe there's anything magic about the hybrid as an emissions scrubber. X amount of gasoline burned in a hybrid ICE has relatively the same emissions as X amount of gas burned in a ICE without hybrid. You have to burn less gas to make less exhaust, or am I missing something? Getting more power for the same emissions is not going to eliminate any smog, it will just help us make smog faster.
Last edited by Double-Trinity; 05-23-2006 at 11:59 PM.
#25
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
Originally Posted by Chilly
This is incorrect. Both hybrid Lexus models and the Highland hybrid have considerable more power than the Prius and yet all these vehicles carry the same SULEV rating. The amount of pollution you put into the air is not just dependent upon your MPG. It has a lot to do with how much of the fuel is burned during combustion. The idea is to burn up all the fuel that is put into the combustion engine. Any fuel that is left unburnt is what contributes the most to your tail pipe emmisions. Therefore, comparing car A to car B simply by MPG is not a fair comparison for emmisions if car B is more effecient at burning all the fuel in the combustion chamber.
I know this government testing method is about 30 years old and i dont really go by that: they promised me 60MPG but i'm getting 50MPG, and i'm not the only one complaining, it's all over the news no one thinks that's a credible source of info that's why they are changing that soon to include more realistic driving habits and environmental factors like hills and weather. I know during these tests they make these cars run too slow that the hybrid motor kicks in and propells the car forward, thus, producing ZERO emissions, i bet that's where the SULEV stamp comes in. Okay, that being said, i know there are many situations where that happens in the city. But, during acceleration, we all know that the combustion engine will kick in. A big car like the lexus will be burning more fuel to propel the car forward because of it's weight and the fact it's got a 3.5L V6 engine it produces more HP per RPM thus burning more gas. ALso, in ACTUAL highways, (where the gov't testing method doesnt even cover in it's tests), the ICE will be the one propelling the car forward and sustaining the car's speed at 60 - 80MPH. With the exceptions of going downhill where the ICE can shut off to coast, I bet that emissions of the lexus and a camry v6 in this driving environment wont be too far apart either.
Perhaps a better comparison would be, the lexus produces the same emissions as a regular V6 (in this case, a CAMRY V6/AVALON) when the car is running on ICE, eg Accelerating, maintaining highway speeds, but it has a really nice feature of turning that off during deceleration, stop lights, and slow movement on level roads (and lets not forget reverse). At least that's how i see it. So i believe that's where this car can be described as having Lowered Emissions with the added benefit of having more HP from the Electric engine which stored wasted power such as braking or coasting. I stated that a 4 Cyl. with a hybrid motor geared towards lowering emissions is still a better way to reduce emissions. If i travel 50 miles in a Prius or HCH, and you travel 50 Miles in a V6 Hybrid. Lets say i get 50MPG and the V6 gets 25MPG. Therefore, in the end I have consumed 1Gal and you consumed 2. Where did all of that fuel go? it burned in the gas chambers and the byproduct gases are spewed out as emissions, so who spewed out 2x more? I can say in the end that a prius or HCH driver can be happier to say they "reduce emissions" rather than a v6 hybrid owner, need more proof, who gets to drive in the car pool lanes in some states because we spew out lesser emissions per person even if there is just ONE person in the vehicle?
BTW no pun intended, it's just my 2 cents.
have a nice day
gj
#26
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
Camel, as I have already said, there is already a PZEV Jetta, Fusion, Accord, and others. The PZEV Jetta is EPA rated at 22/30, yet it creates literally no more pollution than the Prius. (Or, if it does, it's little enough to stay within PZEV guidelines.) Imagine that.
You are wrong about equal-mileage cars being equal-pollution. Hell, the ULEV 2005 HCH is more fuel-efficient than the PZEV HCH, yet it creates more pollution.
All other things being equal, reduced fuel consumption reduces pollution. But not all other things are equal -- how the gas is burned, the design of the engine and fuel tank, and the catalytic converter all work to reduce emissions independently of fuel economy.
You are wrong about equal-mileage cars being equal-pollution. Hell, the ULEV 2005 HCH is more fuel-efficient than the PZEV HCH, yet it creates more pollution.
All other things being equal, reduced fuel consumption reduces pollution. But not all other things are equal -- how the gas is burned, the design of the engine and fuel tank, and the catalytic converter all work to reduce emissions independently of fuel economy.
#27
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
Originally Posted by CGameProgrammer
Camel, as I have already said, there is already a PZEV Jetta, Fusion, Accord, and others. The PZEV Jetta is EPA rated at 22/30, yet it creates literally no more pollution than the Prius. (Or, if it does, it's little enough to stay within PZEV guidelines.) Imagine that.
You are wrong about equal-mileage cars being equal-pollution. Hell, the ULEV 2005 HCH is more fuel-efficient than the PZEV HCH, yet it creates more pollution.
All other things being equal, reduced fuel consumption reduces pollution. But not all other things are equal -- how the gas is burned, the design of the engine and fuel tank, and the catalytic converter all work to reduce emissions independently of fuel economy.
You are wrong about equal-mileage cars being equal-pollution. Hell, the ULEV 2005 HCH is more fuel-efficient than the PZEV HCH, yet it creates more pollution.
All other things being equal, reduced fuel consumption reduces pollution. But not all other things are equal -- how the gas is burned, the design of the engine and fuel tank, and the catalytic converter all work to reduce emissions independently of fuel economy.
thanks for updating me with current tech events
i'm going to sign off for a while, have some tests to study for
regards,
gj
#29
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
Wrong idea guys. Toyota just celebrated its 500,000 hybrid sale. That leaves what... only about 150,000,000 others cars that are not hybrids (just in the U.S.). If you want people to drive green you have to make them want the vehicle. There are plenty of people that want to save on gas or save the environment or both. But they have competing needs. Like fitting their family into the car, or they have clients to pamper, or heavy loads to carry etc. Some needs may be more legit than others, and some may just be a matter of preference.
Toyota and Honda know that, hence hybrid SUVs, the GS and the Accord. Not everyone has fuel economy and pollution as their #1 concerns when they purchase a vehicle. This car is a good start. If they throw in cylinder deactivation, and a bigger battery and a plug.... Well, then it will still be out of my price range.
It will be a bit of irony that (hopefully) in a few years GM will offer a plug in hybrid hummer that burns E85. Some hardcore SUV fans will buy it. They will, like ~50% of the rest of us, drive back and forth to work, less than 25 miles per day, thus getting better than 100 mpg because their ICE will almost never run. Thus smokin' the fuel economy of the current generration Prius and HCH.
Fantasy? Look at how many people actually take their SUVs off road, close to none. In the same vein, it doesn't matter if the ICE produces 500 horsepower and gets 10 mpg, if it only runs for 5 minutes a week. I think hybrid technology is the answer, but we need to make people want the vehicles, rather than pummeling them for having a different set of needs.
With regard to questions about fuel economy (24/28 for the GS). A friend of mine had an BMW M3 (330 hp). It had a similar 0-60 time and weighed ~500 lbs less than a GS, and got <13mpg in town. So 24 mpg in town is a huge improvement.
Toyota and Honda know that, hence hybrid SUVs, the GS and the Accord. Not everyone has fuel economy and pollution as their #1 concerns when they purchase a vehicle. This car is a good start. If they throw in cylinder deactivation, and a bigger battery and a plug.... Well, then it will still be out of my price range.
It will be a bit of irony that (hopefully) in a few years GM will offer a plug in hybrid hummer that burns E85. Some hardcore SUV fans will buy it. They will, like ~50% of the rest of us, drive back and forth to work, less than 25 miles per day, thus getting better than 100 mpg because their ICE will almost never run. Thus smokin' the fuel economy of the current generration Prius and HCH.
Fantasy? Look at how many people actually take their SUVs off road, close to none. In the same vein, it doesn't matter if the ICE produces 500 horsepower and gets 10 mpg, if it only runs for 5 minutes a week. I think hybrid technology is the answer, but we need to make people want the vehicles, rather than pummeling them for having a different set of needs.
With regard to questions about fuel economy (24/28 for the GS). A friend of mine had an BMW M3 (330 hp). It had a similar 0-60 time and weighed ~500 lbs less than a GS, and got <13mpg in town. So 24 mpg in town is a huge improvement.
Last edited by hotrod hybrid; 12-22-2006 at 09:00 PM. Reason: poor writing
#30
Re: 339 HP Lexus GS Hybrid ???
Maybe I missed it somewhere in this long thread, but lower emissions and higher economy is achieved partly with the use of the Atkinson Cycling of the ICE. The Atkinson Cycle sacrifices some serious Torque, but the combo with Electric drive motors replaces the low end Torque loss.
Combine this with some serious program control of the entire power train, and you have the beauty of the Hybrid. Many wonder why elements of this have not been applied to all vehicles? Any one of these as a standalone solution would turn the average eco cruiser into a real dog, but in combo together you get decent performance, and a heck of a reduction in emissions.
I also noticed little mention of the impact Auto-Stop has on emissions control. This makes a huge contribution to lowering emissions. Even the GM approach with a Belt Alternator Starter(BAS) system will have dramatic impact on emissions, while providing little mpg relief.
Serious engineering and finances have gone into these platforms, and I guarantee none of the manufacturers are taking this lightly. Even if all vehicles featured Auto-Stop, the environment would be dramatically impacted for the better. Gas powered Golf Carts have had Auto-Stop for a decade, although very crude.
I think within the next ten (10) years we can go back to picking our cars against all the old scorecards without melting the polar ice caps in the process.
It's all good!
Combine this with some serious program control of the entire power train, and you have the beauty of the Hybrid. Many wonder why elements of this have not been applied to all vehicles? Any one of these as a standalone solution would turn the average eco cruiser into a real dog, but in combo together you get decent performance, and a heck of a reduction in emissions.
I also noticed little mention of the impact Auto-Stop has on emissions control. This makes a huge contribution to lowering emissions. Even the GM approach with a Belt Alternator Starter(BAS) system will have dramatic impact on emissions, while providing little mpg relief.
Serious engineering and finances have gone into these platforms, and I guarantee none of the manufacturers are taking this lightly. Even if all vehicles featured Auto-Stop, the environment would be dramatically impacted for the better. Gas powered Golf Carts have had Auto-Stop for a decade, although very crude.
I think within the next ten (10) years we can go back to picking our cars against all the old scorecards without melting the polar ice caps in the process.
It's all good!
Last edited by elwood58; 06-09-2006 at 09:12 AM.