2007 TCH w/182k miles throwing VSC and Hybrid codes
My TCH is trowing the P0A80 code but none of the P30xx codes indicating which block(s) is(are) bad. This is the 2nd inning in this particular ballgame. I'm looking for advice on the best way to proceed given a few constraints (S Keith's input especially desired):
My Prolong charger arrived this week ... and I'm ready to run the charge/discharge cycle (home built bulb discharger using S Keith's discharge routine). Willing to take a few more whacks at the moles but want to be efficient at it given my time constraints, if possible. The BIG Q I have is: Would it be valuable enough to take data via the Techstream software / cable / laptop to order and wait a few more days before starting ??? TIA |
Re: 2007 TCH w/182k miles throwing VSC and Hybrid codes
Climate?
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Re: 2007 TCH w/182k miles throwing VSC and Hybrid codes
Originally Posted by S Keith
(Post 267670)
Climate?
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Re: 2007 TCH w/182k miles throwing VSC and Hybrid codes
Trying to gauge how much damage your battery has sustained. Camrys are very hard on them. Cooler climates tend to fare a bit better.
The issue with a Techstream evaluation up front is that you're assessing an old deteriorated pack, which won't tell you a lot beyond maybe helping identify the culprit. The idea with the following is to recondition everything to ensure everything is as good as it can be. That's the big issue with module replacement... you have (34 - # replaced) other modules that have deteriorated to a small fraction of their rated capacity and are more prone to failure. I've made a lot of recommendations, so I'm not sure which you're using. Assuming two light bulbs in series. Charge for 24 hours Discharge to 224V at max wattage. Discharge to 163V at 40W max (may take a VERY long time) Charge for 24 hours Discharge to 224V at max wattage. Discharge to 102V at 40W max Charge for 24 hours Note that the above cycles can be run non-consecutively, i.e., as long as you precede any discharge with a 24 hour charge, you're good. Do the first one over a weekend, drive the following week, do the second one over the 2nd weekend. You may opt for a 3rd discharge. If so, repeat it to 102V, don't go lower. If you don't have enough time to do the 2nd 24 hour charge during the weekend, do as much as you can, 12 hr minimum. Additional goodness: if you're inclined to remove the cover during the discharge and capture the module voltages at various target voltages, that can be diagnostically useful. Consistency is key. You'll want readings at 245V, 224V and 204V on both discharges (±1V). Techstream assessment: Connect to car, HV Control computer and select the dropdown that focuses on the battery It may help to create a custom data set that has only, SoC, current and the 17 block voltages. Start recording Discharge in Neutral using as many electrical accessories as possible (lights, interior lights, rear defroster, A/C or Defrost setting). Continue discharge until the car squawks that you should put it in "D" or "P" Note that A/C is the best, but your climate may not permit it. If that's the case, use defrost. The engine will have to run to produce the heat, but in "N" it can't charge. Defrost can work nicely too because the 12V system is running the spark plugs, and the HV battery has to charge the 12V system. That should show you how the blocks are behaving under a decent load. There may be one or more turds that prevent a meaningful test, but you'll know to replace them when you see the block voltage drop off a cliff. You'll KNOW to replace that one. If you get lucky, you'll only crack the pack once, but it may take two forays into the pack to get it sorted... Small chance of 3+; HOWEVER, once complete, your repair should be much more long-lived, particularly with occasional techstream assessments and one charge/discharge cycle per year. |
Re: 2007 TCH w/182k miles throwing VSC and Hybrid codes
Thanks for the quick reply.
I replaced 1 module back in Oct. ... 33 originals. That replacement was dated 2011, IIRC. I've learned a lot about the battery module life/behavior since then and if I need to replace modules want to evaluate them all as best as possible (sans letting the pack sit for 7 days between actions ... would love to, but life attm won't permit it ... summer or next fall, maybe). Follow-up questions - apologies in advance if they seem more educational rather than practical in nature. I do respect and appreciate your time.
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Re: 2007 TCH w/182k miles throwing VSC and Hybrid codes
Initial discharge may take a very long time. I wouldn't be surprised if you're looking at 12-15 hours.
2X200W still okay if you can find them. You can still do 100W x2, but I usually omit it for simplicity. May help shave a little time off the process. Not sure I understand "higher end-voltage" Depending on the severity, it's not uncommon for the 3 cycles to improve 30-50%, 10-15%, 0-5%, respectively. IMHO, diminishing returns on the 3rd. I was under the impression you already had Techstream. If you're going to take module voltages at stages, you can probably get away with not using it. If you're truly an enginerd, wire a cheap harbor freight multimeter in series with the load in 10A ammeter mode and measure the actual current being discharged. log periodic time, volts and amps readings, 1 min, 5 min, 30 min, 60 min and each hour thereafter as well as the target voltage points (where you're measuring the 34 modules). You'll be able to calculate your actual capacity. |
Re: 2007 TCH w/182k miles throwing VSC and Hybrid codes
Charging is underway ... I'll post the data I've taken so far later tonight.
"higher end-voltage" On discharge number 1 you suggest stopping at 163V, as opposed to the 102V used for subsequent discharges. (0.8V per cell vs. 0.5V per cell) ... Curious about why the difference? Is it not to over-stress potentially weak cells before that first big re-charge? I assume it's ok just to unscrew one of the 200W bulbs rather than swap out to 2 x 100W bulbs - don't have to pause the discharge that way. I have 2 x 40W "appliance" bulbs for the last part of the discharge. Let me know if I'm off-base here. Speaking of charging - Why is the charge target/limit at 24 hrs as opposed to some preferred voltage level or charging current parameter? Since the Prolong displays both ... Is it a time/heat thing? (Something you don't worry so much about with lead-acid batteries, within limits of course. Equalization charge is done at a slightly higher voltage than the nominal cell voltage, e.g. 2.45V/cell for a typical LA/SLA/VRLA batt, until charging current drops under 1% Ah capacity). I do realize that perfect modules with their 6500 mAH should only take ~11 hours to charge from 40%-100% if the charge rate was steady-state. But after bulk charging I'm assuming the current drops off during the equalization phase. (True for any good LA/SLA/VRLA charger.) If all goes well I should be done the 3x cycles by Sunday. My inner nerd now wishes I had the time-luxury of getting the 7-day self-discharge data ... but I am looking around for my old/cheap multimeter to wire in during discharge per your suggestion. (That was a particularly creative idea - thx!) |
Re: 2007 TCH w/182k miles throwing VSC and Hybrid codes
The level of voltage depression in each of the modules will vary wildly. You won't have 204 cells at 0.8V per cell. You may have some CELLS (not modules) at -0.5V (yes, negative) and some at 1.1V. Running the cells for too long in reversed polarity will damage them.
Use the safety plug to terminate the discharge and replace the bulbs. 24*350 = 8400mAh. The ANSI spec for NiMH capacity testing calls for 0.1C charge for 15 or 16 hours (can't remember which), so 50-60% MORE input than rated capacity. This is to address charge inefficiencies (charging efficiency goes way down above 80% SoC) and imbalance. It's highly unlikely your battery is anywhere near its 6500mAh capacity after reconditioning. Possible, but unlikely. NOT getting all 204 cells to 100% SoC is way worse than if you have to overcharge the snot out of some. 24 hours is somewhat arbitrary for conservative reasons to ensure all CELLS are at 100% SoC. Alternative means of termination are: Peak voltage held for 8 hours OR Voltage drop that comes back up to peak OR Voltage drop that keeps dropping OR Warm air exiting out of the pack Different because NiMH charging and Pb charging aren't anything alike. Bulk, absorption, float and equalization have no literal analogy. The closest one is equalization, but it's not about voltage, it's about input. NiMH cell voltage DROPS when it gets full unlike Pb, which will keep going up until things get really ugly. Cells in different conditions have different peak voltages, so LITERALLY, every single pack is unique and even though you can get kinda close, there's no one-size-fits-all. |
Re: 2007 TCH w/182k miles throwing VSC and Hybrid codes
Originally Posted by 07BlueTCH
(Post 267698)
I assume it's ok just to unscrew one of the 200W bulbs rather than swap out to 2 x 100W bulbs - don't have to pause the discharge that way. I have 2 x 40W "appliance" bulbs for the last part of the discharge. Let me know if I'm off-base here.
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Re: 2007 TCH w/182k miles throwing VSC and Hybrid codes
If it makes you feel any better, here's my (continuing) story. I got the battery dead code some time ago. I cleaned the terminals, re-assembled, and started driving again.
Maybe 10,000 miles later I got the code again. Using my tablet, Torque, and a $20 dongle, I reset the code and drove another couple thousand miles before the code reappeared. Long story short, I have reset the code no fewer than 30 times since then and it's still running some 30,000 miles later (maybe 40k). (Note that I also get the VSC code and it just goes away) The car has so many miles (over 300k) that I have no intention of investing in a battery but it's amazing how it just runs and runs and...... |
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