CNBC Video

 

Wow that is horrible reporting... 5 minutes of vague statements without being able to back them up. I don't believe for a minute that Toyota is not making money on the Prius. They have taken that technology and pushed it through their Toyota and Lexus lines and are about to come out with the 3rd generation. You don't do a 3rd gen on something that is not making money.

The only part I found accurate was that while gas prices are low, us stupid Americans will buy the biggest car we can afford and not worry about gas mileage. (sad)

 

Most car companies lose money on small cars. The are forced to sell them to satisfy CAFE (so they can offset the poor mileage on their enormously profitability larger cars).
I don't know the economics of the Prius (how much can you possibly make on a $20,000 car?), but I imagine they're not making a lot of money on it. Just guessing, but they probably make between $5,000 and $10,000 on a high end Lexus.
It's an investment in the future and if they can get economies of scale up and running (popping out a million TCH's a year), they will be swimming in money. Until then, the cost of creating a new, highly advanced, technology might make profitability tough to come by.

 

I remember when the first Prius came out. Each car sold cost toyota $49,000 dollars. Toyota decided to offer it to the public for something like $19,950. My guess is there was a time where they broke even and then started making a profit on the car.

 

Figuring cost is funny, it's all how you allocate the initial investment.
it takes a pharmaceutical company $2 Billion make the first pill for a new drug.
The second pill costs them $.40 to make.

 

Wow! And these are so-called industry experts?? That is down-right scary. How can anyone say that hybrid technology is not at least part of the answer?? 40mpg cars without hybrid technology?? As someone also mentioned, 40mpg in the city/highway combined......not highway mileage! I know i am averaging 39-43mpg combined!I will beleive that when it happens! Now that Toyota has posted it's first operating loss.....questioning hybrid technology is just plain foolish. NO car manufacturers are making money......Ford, GM and Chrysler have been in the red for a LONG time. The global economy is just plain bad and very few people world-wide are buying hybrids or regular cars right now. Who can blame them?

 

What bothers me is many car manufacturers lately advertise their fleet of cars get 30 miles per gallon. They hide the fact their cars may only get from 19 to 23 in the city.

This is my reason for going with the hybrid technology. A full hybrid usually gets higher city gas mileage and slightly lower highway.

 

Bumping up heroic MPG on the EPA highway cycle is relatively easy - look at GM's expedient with the 'FE' versions on several lines. Not being over-critical of the approach - if one's driving cycle corresponds to the EPA highway cycle, you can actually get there. The issue is that most folks driving cycles more closely resemble the 'city' cycle, so the fuel-shutoff feature of the hybrid pays dividends in eliminating the idling.

One other item - they mention the 'clean Diesel' as a possible technology, without the disclaimers of a comparable-to-hybrid bump in cost to pay for the 'afterburner' catalyst and the ultra-high-pressure injector pumps and injectors, as well as the higher cost of the engine components needed to live in the Diesel combustion cycle. Likewise, the bugaboo of Hybrid battery life gets bandied about, without a mention of the durability issue/concern/unknowns of the Diesel catalyst/afterburners, which are in the 70-90K mile design life range, with a $700-$1500 replacement cost range.

My point isn't that Diesel is a 'bad' technology, just that it has certain cost and durability compromises like the gas-engine Hybrid. With the Camry (and with the Prius as well), I feel Toyota left a certain opportunities 'on the table' for cost reasons:

• Wider range for cam timing, and adjusting both intake and exhaust cams would provide opportunity for both better FE and better performance. Better specific output could be used to go with a smaller engine, improving FE at light loads.
• Going with direct injection would likewise provide opportunity for better engine efficiency.
• Going with more light-weight materials to reduce vehicle weight would pay dividends in both FE and performance. Examples of this would be increased use in high-strength steel in the body shell, Aluminum forgings in suspension parts and subframes, composite brake parts like rotors.
• Incremental changes to further reduce aero drag (e.g. a full 'belly tray', reduced/eliminated outside mirrors, replaced with video cameras) would likewise reduce 'highway' fuel consumption.

Most of those would add non-trivial incremental cost to the vehicle, and in the era of $1.50 gas aren't cost-justifiable. Together, they could add un to a 20-40% improvement in FE. When gas returns to the $4+ range in a few years, they'll be 'on the table' again.

 

How else are you supposed to sell a car from the bankrupt Big Three if you don't tell people the Hybrid is dead? What impresses me that Toyota made 'no money on the Prius' and other Hybrids, yet was able to take over the car market at the same time other car companies did not make hybrids. Of the Big Three, there is the FEH and some two-mode vehicles, but they all need the bailout. The minute Toyota takes a loss, everyone wants to pile on them. What gives?
Also, if you make a car that last 10 years, at some point demand is passed over by durability. When everyone had money 5 years ago, they bought the H2, Camry, and Mustang. All of those cars are only midway through their life cycle, so there is no need to buy a car right now. People on this board want to keep the TCH for 10-15 years. That being said, demand is bound to decrease if you are satisfied with your current vehicle.

 

I would only consider GM if they made a car that would get maybe 5 more mpg than the TCH. I doubt that will ever happen. Toyota has proven they can build a high gas mileage car like the 2003 Corolla. It used an advanced technology low friction engine with the variable cam. This Corolla got 39 to 41 combined mpg. I was easy peddling the car like I do my TCH. Driving at 60 with cruise, I got 43/44 mpg highway during the Spring with the AC turned off. The car rode a little stiff on trips. With me being older, the TCH was the perfect answer with it's smooth ride and high mpg.