I apologize if this isn't an appropriate thread for this forum...

They ran a story on a few of the news stations here in West Michigan asking viewers to comment (or vote in a poll) on who owns a foreign car. Since this is Michigan, there is a large (but gradually declining) number of people who either work for the Big Three, or work for suppliers to the Big Three automakers in the U.S. The numbers I saw on one station put the number of foreign car owners at about 22%. Another station played back phone messages of people who called in to comment. Most of them were saying that they bought domestic cars because they wanted to support these automakers and their workers. One used the old "I would never drive a rice-burner..." statement.

I just smiled. I have nothing against supporting the local economy, but when you are building an inferior product, I think that buying a big ticket item like a car based solely on the fact that it is an "American" car is naive and shortsighted. Why would you exclude a great, reliable, economical car because it isn't "American"?

First of all, the term "american" car is no longer cut and dry. They are building foreign cars on American soil, and they are building American cars on foreign soil.

I have basically said to myself "I am done". No more domestic vehicles. I am tired of all the times I have to bring them in for service. My last car (a Chevy Trailblazer) was recalled about 5-6 times while I owned it, plus I had to bring it in for warranty work about 3 times. I complained about the transmission within about 6 months of buying it - saying that it shuddered when shifting from 1st to 2nd gear under very light acceleration, and of course they could never duplicate the problem. I have read that a lot of folks have had early transmission failures on these TB's as well.

I don't really have any brand loyalty (although a lot of these are GM vehicles - mostly my parent's doing)...

Since the age of 16, I have either driven (parent's cars) or owned/leased the following:
Driven:
Chevy Monte Carlo
Chevy Cavalier
Ford Mustang
Pontiac Parisienne (don't laugh - it actually got stolen, and then recovered)
Cutlass Ciera

Owned:
Honda Accord
Toyota Rav4 (leased - never again!)
Olds Aurora
Chevy Trailblazer
Toyota Camry Hybrid

Since we have been married, my wife has owned:

Geo Tracker
Honda Civic
Mitsubishi Eclipse
Honda Accord


I thought I would give the domestic brands another chance with the Olds Aurora and the TB, but they disappointed me (especially the TB - I only got rid of the Olds Aurora because I needed a tow vehicle for a pair of jetskis).

Anyway, I just wanted to vent, because those news stories really bothered me for some reason.

This is a link to the newpaper article that prompted the TV stations' stories:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...73251871789031

 

Actually, with ethanol, E85 and biofuels "rice burner" is getting pretty close to the truth.

 

The foreign/domestic thing is definitely a moot point these days. I used to work for a steel company. If you drove an "American" car, you were allowed to park in the covered parking garage. If you drove an "import", you had to park in the outside lot. Then they discovered that they actually supplied steel for some of the "imports" being built in the USA, and sold no steel to some of the "American" makers after they moved production to Mexico. They finally had to give up on the parking rules.

My experience has been pretty good with most cars I've owned, with a few exceptions. I bought a lot of GMs for a while, partly because I could get a good supplier discount with no hassle. Here they all are, in order of best-to-worst reliability. The last two really had lots of problems. (The new TCH is not on the list yet - too early to tell!)

1981 Toyota Corolla
1988 Chevy Silverado
1994 Chevy Silverado
1991 Buick LeSabre
1974 Toyota HiLux pickup
1999 GMC Sierra (still have this one)
2001 Buick LeSabre (still have this one)
1997 Buick LeSabre
(insert BIG reliability drop here)
1979 VW Rabbit
1986 Acura Legend (it hurts just thinking about it)

So, I've had good experience with many GM vehicles, and had a real rolling disaster of an Acura, the JD Power king at the time. Go figure.

 

True!

I never really understood the term "rice burner". Why would it burn rice? I didn't know rice was flammable before it turned into saki. And what would you call domestic cars? "Foreign-oil burners"?

 

I just had to comment on this one since I also owned an 1986 Acura Legend. I bought it new and it was easily the best and most reliable car I've ever owned. It was really amazing.

I've primarily owned cars from Honda, Acura, and Toyota and they have all been extremely reliable. By far the worst car I ever drove was a Pinto, but that should come as no surprise to anyone.

Will Mayall

 

I know how you feel. I live outside edge of Toronto in the home town of GM Canada. On my commute I drive nearby their HQ building (amongst the Cadillac Escalades on the way to the office), down to their assembly complex (1 truck and 2 car assembly plants in one huge facility that is about 2 or 3 miles long and 1 mile wide). When I reach it I have to circumnavigate it to get to my work on the opposite side. While doing so I often get mixed in with a convoy of brand new trucks coming off the assembly line on the way to the rail yards. Odd thing though, the roads going around the GM plant are perfect for e-mode so I get great gas mileage thanks to GM.

But because this is such an important part of the local economy, I was a loyal GM buyer for years. I've owned 4 new GM vehicles over a period of 14 yrs. 3 of them had to be towed back to the dealer under warranty. All of them required numerous warranty fixes of various sorts, some required multiple fixes for the same issue. A fifth GM car I had bought used, a Cavalier as a 2nd car wasn't too bad for a cheap little car, but I remember getting an "extended warranty" notice on the spark plugs and wires. The letter basically said they installed crappy plugs and wires and would replace them if trouble occurs beyond the normal warranty. Well sure enough the engine started running rough. So I took the notice in and the dealer was only willing to replace 1 plug and 1 wire. Guess what, a few months later same problem. Do I have to go back 4 times for each wire to get this fixed? I just bought my own and replace the whole set, got better things to do.

So I jumped ship and bought a Sienna in 2003 (2004 new model just like the TCH is now). It did have a number of early model recalls which were done at regular service visits so did not affect me, but not a single failure for over 3 yrs (I finally had one a couple of weeks ago, the horn stopped working). So although it had a few recalls, it has been the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned. So sorry GM, our Cavalier was sold and our 2nd car is now a Toyota too...

 

What makes a car an American car? There have been some interesting articles about this in the news. I read this one on MSN: http://autos.msn.com/advice/article....tentid=4021986. I mean, you could buy an American manufacturer's vehicle that contains 60% domestic parts that might not even be built in the US (my Chevy was built in Canada, which is North America, so maybe it was American?) or a Toyota with over 70% domestic parts that is also built in KY, which means Americans made it. In that article it states that the new Saturn VUE has more domestic parts now that it has a HONDA engine, because the Honda engine is made in the US. The old VUE engine wasn't made here.

 

I was surprised by my experience with my '86 Legend. My expectations were high. The engine computing module that controlled fuel delivery failed. The auto transmission had to be rebuilt twice. It had to be towed out of my garage on two occasions. All before the 36000 mile warranty was up. Needless to say, I dumped the car ASAP after 36k.

To make matters worse, the only Acura dealer in my area was incredibly rude and condescending. When I tried to give them detailed info on the symptoms, they just tossed my carefully prepared list in the trash , and said "We're the pros. Let us do the diagnosis." It took them three tries at diagnosis for the computer failure, even though I told them on the first visit that this was the only failure that could explain the exact combination of symptoms. They would not give me a loaner car, even during the transmission rebuilds, saying it wasn't their policy. Then I saw an Integra at work that said "Courtesy Loaner Vehicle" on the door, with the dealership name. When I called them and complained, they asked me if I had negotiated getting a loaner for service when I bought the car, like that owner had.

The final straw was when my letter to Acura/Honda went unanswered and unacknowledged. I'm sure Honda makes fine vehicles in general, and I just got a bad one. But their lack of response guarantees I'll never buy another one.

 

Here are all the cars I've owned, numbered from worst (11) to best (1) in terms of reliability/lack of maintenance (not considering fluids, wipers, tires, batteries, brake pads, hoses and belts).

The very high maintenance cars I've owned are:
11) 1984 Mercedes 300 TDT (sold at 6 years) (additional comments below)
10) 1972 Volvo DL (2 years) (bad, but I bought this 10 years old)
9) 1996 Volvo 850 (6 years) (constantly needing expensive repairs, but I really loved driving this car!!!!)
8) 1988 Ford Aerostar (6 years) (first two years were horrible, then average)

This car needed minimal unscheduled maintenance:
7) 1974 Ford Pinto wagon (4 years) (barely misses the "ultra reliable" category due to multiple clutch and replacements)

The ultra reliable (next to no unscheduled maintenance ever):
6) 1978 Honda Accord (6 years)
5) 1997 Toyota Camry (11 years)
4) 1998 Lexus GS (9 years)
3) 1986 Saab 900S (11 yrs) (tied with Volvo 850 for best driving car)

And my current stable has been perfectly reliable so far, but too young for fair comparisons:

2) 2005 Toyota Siena (my only "foreign" car built in the US!)
1) 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid (most fun to drive!!!)

Coincidently, all of my high maintenance cars (but none of the others) have required a new turn signal flasher! Cost for the flasher part was well under $7 for each of them, except for the Mercedes, which was $66 after a 20% "good customer" discount. I was able to easily change each of them myself, except for the Mercedes, which took the mechanic 1.5 hours to change. I'll save you the details about the window regulator, fuel injector, two transmissions, engine gasket, door locks, climate control, and many other exceptionally expensive and unexpected repairs on the Mercedes. My Mercedes experience was so horrible that I couldn't even fairly consider a BMW and bought the Lexus instead!

-- Alan