Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Hi,

I have a couple of questions for owners of 2003 through 2005 HCH who have had their IMA batteries fail.

1. CVT or Manual.

2. Did you use air conditioning in the summer?

I have a couple of thoughts about HCH battery failure. :lightbulb

Thank You.

Rick

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

2003 HCH battery failed at 120,000 miles (Honda replaced free of charge).

1. CVT (137,000 miles now, and still going strong)

2. Only when it's hot.


Howard

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

* Battery failed at 67,000 miles.

* Manual.

* Use AC on hot days in summer.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Interesting thread, what are your thoughts about the battery failures?

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

well, with the manual, I've heard that their batteries fail sooner. Probably because it lets the battery discharge more deeply. And then I have heard the same of driving in the mountains. When I drive, I charge it up going down, and then totally discharge it going back up, and then some.

But who knows...it seems like the computer system could be programmed to keep the car from discharging the batteries completely.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Here are my thoughts.

#1 Manual transmission IMA is driven harder for better acceleration and better gas milage. If you notice, you get a couple of more HP from the manual transmission HCH than the Automatic.

#2 Batteries like the same temperatures we like. Overheating the batteries can cause them to go bad quicker. There is a lot of time and money spent by the auto companies on battery pack thermal management. I think that AC use saves battery packs.

I came to these conclusions trolling around the Honda Insight chat rooms. It seemed when a battery pack went bad, the owner of the car had manual transmission and did not use AC. You really could get some great gas milage with the manual transmissions, but they were hell on batteries. This is why Honda no longer offers a MT in the Civic Hybrid.

Ford (I own a Mercury Mariner Hybrid) has deticated AC for the battery pack. I have heard their testing shows the battery packs last a really long time with the deticated AC in the battery compartment.

Wish I could get more owners to come forward, but hopefully this means there are not many failed battery packs.

Rick

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

have a 2003 HCH manual at 143000+ miles. Purchased it used somewhere around 90000. Original battery still going. I don't use air unless it is really hot and I drive to try and keep from draining the battery all the way (though it happens now ande then).

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Nightmare scenario here!

My 2003 HCH flipped on its IMA light on Monday at 108k. The dealer says its a P1447 "battery module deterioration". Oh, and by the way, that'll be $6,000!

I live in Texas, am the second owner and drive very sensibly.

I spoke with a civil but unhelpful person at American Honda who basically said, "Sorry. Nothing to do about it."

I've seen the note that battery pack prices are expected to come down tomorrow, so I guess the timing is good. But I still feel like I've got a balloon payment due on this car I didn't even know was looming! (Sure, I knew "someday"... but 108k? On a Honda?)

I honestly can't buy a new battery pack right now. So to all of you who are wiser than I am, I ask: Can I drive it anyway? Will I get stuck somewhere when the battery level drops to nothing? (Last check it was about 45% but it's been parked for four days.) What options do I have?

Anything and everything anyone has to say gratefully appreciated!

Newsweek (May 28, 2008) said:Anyone else out there upping this total to over 200?

Kris

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Greenyule, am new to the forum here, but whatever happened to your car? Could you get Honda to help you out? My IMA light has been on for 2 months, and I have 120,000 miles on it. I have been waiting to see if I can get Honda to help out, as the cat converter also needs replaced (I am on #3 cat converter now!). Honda said they can't help me out because I'm out of warranty but I'm not giving up yet.
My battery is still charging and is OK, but I also wonder if it will just die one day.....from reading the columns it sure doesn't seem like IMA battery failure is rare!!

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Well, I'm sort of 'waiting' as well! I'm at about 109,000 and 1,300 miles and two months past the point where my IMA light came on and my car was diagnosed as having 'battery failure'. While it's slightly more sluggish and it shows four green bars of charging when it probably shouldn't, it's otherwise charging, assisting and auto stopping as usual. I'm getting 41mpg with the A/C on in hot Texas, which is probably only one or two mpg less than before the light came on. The price I was quoted for replacing the battery was $6480 the end of May. Apparently, there was a price drop on June 1 as Newsweek reported, and the estimate I got in early July was $2475.

American Honda told me flatly that it was out of warranty and no go even though I drew a parallel to the Honda Insight batteries and driving in a hot place like Texas. (I've also had the catalytic converter replaced, at maybe 88k, and I only had to pay about $100 in labor not the $1700 quoted.)

At this point, I really can't afford to replace the battery and I figure 41mpg is better than anything else I can come up with. I've tried to get past a fear that it'll just stop somewhere (and when the charge dropped to two bars yesterday, that was reignited! but it carried on and charged more so it wasn't a problem).

Maybe if we band together and find others with a similar problem we can get American Honda's attention?

Anyone else out there?

Kris

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Yes, let's band together! I'll be constructing an informative letter to Honda when I come back next week. It seems some people are receiving help post-warranty. Good luck, I'm in hot Miami!!!

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

I am reporting back to the group that with my 2003 HCH with 122,000 miles, I tried a second time to get Honda to contribute to my IMA battery. It was noted to have corrosion, and I drove with my IMA light on for a couple months. At first they said they couldn't help, and when I called back in a couple weeks (just to make sure!) they talked to my dealer, and changed their mind, and only made me pay $250 toward the battery. I hope that doesn't upset anyone that had to pay the full price! I wanted to get my story out there, because I want you guys to know that Honda DOES sometime help us out. I think that would be unheard of with an American car company, but I'm not sure.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Persistence payed off, good going. It is good to see a car company help for a change. Might be a good time to up-grade, while the car is in good condition? Seems these older HCH have some built in problems! Cats for one.Only my observation, H

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Ford designed their hybrid battery pack with the AC and Heating system--that is correct it has an automatic heating and cooling system specifically for the hybrid battery and this system has it's own radiator--in an attempt to minimize if not prevent any hybrid battery problems due to temperature regulation. Ford was aware that the GM EV1 had some issues with this. The other item not mentioned in this post deals with the hybrid battery state of charge. In other words--how far does the system let the hybrid battery charge up and discharge. Ford's system is very conservative with the 40% discharge and 60% charge values. I could be mistaken but I believe Honda's hybrid battery has a 40-80% state of charge range. The larger range can provide more electric assistance and thus improve mileage but at the expense of durability. A battery repeatively fully charged and discharged does not last as long as one that stays in the middle. Think cell phone batteries and how long they last. As for the corrosion issue, Ford issued a recall in Aug/Sept 2007 to deal with this potential problem.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

One aspect of the failed battery issue I have not seen discussed is just what constitutes a "failed" battery. I know, it is failed when the little light comes on, but what does it actually mean in terms of remaining capacity (% of original capacity) and the nature of the failure.

The on board computer that makes the call is presumably sensing and evaluating battery related performance data and then "deciding" when the warning light goes on. What data is being evaluated? Is it simply its capacity to store a given amount of energy, or does it also sense the presence of bad cells, temperature fluctuations outside the norm, or other potentially catistrophic battery problems?

The reason I ask is that there may be factors other than simple aging and weakening of the battery pack that can trip the CEL. Also, when the light comes on for a "weak" battery, what does that mean? Is it at 50% of original strength, 70%, 25%?

I have rechargeable flashlight batteries that are clearly not working as well as they did when new, but they still work fine, only for shorter periods of time. In our HCH's it is Honda, through it's on board programing, is telling us when to replace the pack by turning on a warning light, but is there any harm in deciding to continue to use a "weak" battery pack longer. The only downside that comes to mind is that, if the warning light is always lit, we wouldn't know if a second problem pops up unless we have our own OBD reader.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

If you find Bob Wison's research and post's on this site, you will realize the individual hybrid battery cells are quite robust. He is quoted as saying something like "lasting three lifetimes" of the vehicle. That said, one needs to revisit how Honda programs usage of their hybrid batteries and thermal regulation. A rechargeable flashlight like a cell phone allows one to "fully" recharge and discharge it's capacity. Thus it wears out or as previously stated "holds a charge for a lessen amount of time". If I remember correctly, Wilson's data indicates the individual "Toyota" 2nd generation hybrid battery cells do not display any significant loss of "charge-discharge" capacities after 150,000 miles. The question becomes, does Honda program useage of their hybrid batteries differently from other vehicles? Or, what is the difference between Honda and others?

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

CVT
Use a/c nearly all year round
We live in the San Bernardino Mountains where we get snow in the winter. Our home is a mile above sea level. The car is used for commuting or long drives. The first 3 years the car went to Orange County twice a week (180 round trip) and North San Diego County 1-2 a week (120 round trip). Since those trips stopped the car has been driven to Redlands 5 days a week (70 round trip). Yesterday in Redlands it was 80 degrees and summer temps are in the high 90's.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

I have the ultimate in IMA failure. My Civic 2003 hybrid is at the Honda dealership right now with a IMA battery failure. It has 82,000 miles and has been in the shop twice for the IMA light going on. The dealership is trying to work something out with the company- but I have to wait and see. How do you like that?! 2,000 stinking miles over! Oh, I live in San Antonio, Texas- sweltering summers and constant AC use. I have an automatic. I read in California the IMA warrenties were extended because heat has been shown to limit the life of the battery. Hello! Does it not get as hot in Texas as it does in California?:confused:

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

You should be covered on two fronts:

1) They extended the warranty on hybrid components to 100,000 (I'm in a non-CA state). Call Honda if your dealership disagrees -- my dealership is the one that told me about it.

2) There was a class action suit against Honda about the odometer being off. Every warranty is extended by 5 or 10% I can't remember - I think 10%. I know it applies to my 2003 HCH. You didn't have to opt-in to get this benefit-- you could Google for more info.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Yes, the 2003 have a warranty extension due to a lawsuit regarding the odometer. Your 82K should still be covered as it is on 2.5% over 80K. The thing about the 2003's in California is that in order to get them certified for use in carpool lanes (without passengers) the state required 150K warranty for the battery and emissions components. When our catalytic went out the dealer wanted us to pay for it and we stood firm about the warranty and they finally checked with corporate and authorized the repair.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

regarding cell phone batteries: Don't know what phone you have, but we rarely have a battery that makes it past a year. We have 6 cell phones (4 new and 2 old).

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

I am another failed IMA Battery Owner. IMA light originally come on in December 08. My mechanic replaced the 12v car battery which worked until early February when the IMA light came on again. I was told by my Honda dealer that the codes were P1447 and P1449 battery module deterioration. This is a 2003 Civic Hybrid manual transmission with about 120K in mileage. The estimate for repair was $3530 and they wanted me to sign a waiver that if anything else was wrong they wouldn't be responsible. I can't afford the price and I was a little scared about the waiver business. I have chosen to just drive it although that choice leaves me with a nagging stress in the back of my mind. It seems to charge okay. It fully charged the last time I drove it. It also from time to time appears to be charging (about 4 bars) when I don't think it is.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Check Google. Your battery can be repaired for around $700. Search for IMA BATTERY REPAIR

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Please provide links for the inexpensive battery replacement or at least exactly what you searched for. I Googled and didn't find the price.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

I Googled "ima battery repair honda" and the first entry is:

http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Thanks for that link, Ron.
That's good information to have, just in case.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Add me to the list, 03 HCH CVT with 92K on it just got the failed battery code. Dealer wants $2400, down from the original price of $3100. I'm in Austin, TX. I'm going to check out the ima battery repair man. Thanks for the info.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Jeff:
Did you try taking the ground cable off the battery and re-installing it? This resets everything and it may work!! Worth a try! Hal

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Hal,
That will only buy him a few days before the error comes back.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

It's very strange, the IMA light is off and the car is driving great. I'll keep the board posted.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

I have a 2003 Honda Civic with 190K miles and the IMA light came on. The dealer told me it would cost $3500 (standard dealer quote for replacement). The car is barely worth $6,000K. There are a couple of idependent companies that offer re-built or re-furbished IMA batteries. Honda Dealers charge around $3500 - you can get a refurbished battery and replace it your self for around $1000. http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/hch/services.html is located out in NYC. Actual replacment is not that complicated.

For the more adventurous there are websites that explain how you can rebuild the battery yourself. However this takes special tools, meters, and takes at least a week or more according to some of the sites.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

It takes a minimum of 10 days just to run 4 cycles on all the cells. Additional tests pushes that up another week at least, and then you have to replace the bad sticks.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

I recently joined the ranks of HCH I owners getting their IMA batteries replaced. Miles on the odometer were showing just under 70,000 and it is a 2005. I live in a mountainous region and have an almost 2,000 foot climb and descent every day with my commute. The IMA battery gets either completely or nearly completely depleted each climb. Anyway, I had noticed battery performance had dropped off. At first it wasn't by much but got more noticeable until I knew something was wrong. It would discharge fast and when it should have been able to recharge during braking, the charge indicator would only show about 4 bars. On the way home the battery once again hit zero bars showing on the amount of charge meter during the long climb. But then my IMA and check engine lights both came on. What was bizarre was that my battery appeared to charge and discharge like normal again. I checked the ODB2 scan codes and got a 1600, 1433, 1600db, and 1433db. I'm not sure what the db suffix means but 1433 appears to be a battery pack problem. The P1600 code is apparently a keep-alive module power fault of some kind. I don't even know if this applies to Hondas in this way since I think it is a manufacturer-specific code, but the discussions I found on the web indicate that some memory module lost its history due to a power interruption and that might explain why the charging and discharging behavior seemed to go back to normal after the IMA and check engine lights came on. I took it in to my dealer and they replaced the battery under warranty and all is well again. No charge at all to me. I know that the 2,000 foot climb twice a day, 5 days a week is pretty extreme duty, and I am thankful that it failed under warranty and that Honda replaced it for free. I am a little worried that I will have to do this again - probably at 140,000 miles. Really not that bad I suppose - but that's what kind of lifetime I originally expected - 140,000 miles. So it has been a good experience for me. I wasn't stranded and the car seemed normal after the lights came on. Honda replaced it for free so I should get the exact battery life I originally expected anyway. I really do love my HCH I. While I still had the original equipment Bridgestone tires, my mileage was routinely between 50 and 54 miles per gallon. I needed to replace them, though, and went Michelin, and the softer rubber dropped my mileage to around 45 mpg. It's hard to argue even with 45 mpg. But I had to get my IMA battery replaced and a $4,000 price tag for that is a bit scary had it happened out of warranty. I definitely made note of the company that repairs IMA batteries and will probably go to them if I get caught outside of warranty. But I still thank Honda for standing behind my HCH. Other than this it has been a wonderful car.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

The P1433 error simply means that the capacities of the individual sticks in the battery pack (20 in all) are so un-balanced that the car has deemed the pack to be unusable. This is generally caused by a failure of one or two sticks that then stress the others until they perform poorly. The other ones can be brought back to life with battery reconditioners and the bad sticks can be replaced. This is what rebuilding a pack entails.

The P1600 error (and a P1601) is a placemark error that simply says that there is an IMA problem, and to go look for an IMA code.

Leaving your car sitting without driving it will do more to hasten your battery's demise than driving it up and down those mountains. The mountains are actually good for it.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

My Battery was replaced yesterday. Honda covered it.

2004 CVT, 89,500 miles, got Error Codes 1433 and 1600. I drive with AC on when it is hot is SoCal, and we do have hills but I can't say they are long and steep enough to drain the battery regularly.

I've only had it since 71k so I don't know what the previous owner did, but I have taken it on 8 long hauls (1,200 miles each) since I've had it and it also sits sometimes in between trips.

Here is my question: I feel like the car is peppier with the new battery, the acceleration seems better. Am I imagining this or will a new battery do this?

Thanks

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

Your MCM was definitely flashed to the latest software, so there may have been some updates that would affect the feel of the car (and the assist setpoints), but the most likely reason is you now have assist whenever you want it instead of your battery being empty all the time, or the car force-charging it constantly.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

That makes sense. And I have noticed that the engine shuts off at stop lights more frequently now.

But alas, the IMA light came on again yesterday. This time, without the little orange engine icon. Back to the shop i go... Hope it just needs a reset.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

No, it should not come on. Please let me know what the outcome is and what codes were set.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

I brought it back to the dealer and one of the cables came loose after he installed the battery. They fixed it no hassle.

Coincidentally, the "maintenance required" light came on at the same time but that was because it needed a 90k mile maintenance.

Re: Failed IMA Battery Owners!
 

I had the IMA light come on at 92K miles. Honda replaced the battery free of charge. Now it is creaking and banging when the car rocks side to side. Perhaps they didn't bolt it in correctly? I have a MT car, 2003, and use the AC whenever it is over 80 degrees outside which is pretty often.

Anyway, it is back at the dealer today.