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Building a HCHII grid charger
I wanted to share my grid charger build and detail some findings and some nice components.
My 2008 Honda Civic Hybrid has 130000 km on it recals happen if I floor it for a decent length of time or when going uphill for extended time. The SoC indicater rarely goes below 6 bars before recals. Only once seen it at 5 bars during a long motorway drive. So it may be beyond recovery with a grid charge/discharge but I am enjoying the project. If after grid charging fails i may buy a refurbished battery from a company here in ireland. I'll make this a few posts to make it easier to document. One question im still not quite sure of is the allowable grig charger voltage... Ive been reading in some places that you should not go over 190V but elsewhere 200v seemed to be fine and even read some commercial products with 205v rating. My current build was aimed for 190v but as with many chinese products the tech specs are a guideline, resulting in me having a 200v charger. So just wanted to know if there is anything I should watch for using this higher voltage. Still to do: believe this needs to be unidirectional) |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Parts List:
Old computer PSU case € 3,51 3A Switching Power Adapter Driver € 10,08 ( 18-25 ) LED Driver Power Supply AC100 - 265V to DC 54V -90V 240mA -300mA € 3,35 4bit DC 200V 10A Dual Display Voltage Amp Panel Meter € 0,75 5 Pcs Panel Mount Chassis Fuse Holder 10A 250V € 0,97 | 10 pcs 15*10mm 2PIN Boat Rocker Switch 3A/250V €1,45 Connection blocks € 2,40 straight waterproof connector 5 Pin IP68 Industrial power Male plug and Female socket € 7,00 Outdoor 4 core Cable 5 meters € 2,52 Signal Generator PWM Pulse Frequency Duty Cycle Adjustable |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Weird link behavior in Chrome. If I just click the links, I get a search page on ali express. I have to ctrl-click them to get to the actual items.
Some comments: The LED PS you linked are 90V meaning you will peak at 180V ± error. 200V minimum. Most packs will peak progressively higher as you recondition them with charges/discharges. In my experience, most peak around 195, but I have seen them go over 200. I prefer Meanwell APC-35-350 x2. Wider voltage range, 350mA. You could charge with a power supply capable of 500V and have no issue provided the PS is constant current and regulates its own voltage within the operating range of the batter. A battery voltage will only go as high as the charge current allows. Unfortunately, 240-300mA is definitely at the low end. Hopefully, yours are closer to 300mA. You will need a suitably rated diode to protect the LED PS from the battery voltage. If you do this in the harness, you won't be able to discharge the pack. When grid charging, you need to put in 1.6 * capacity = 1.6 * 5500mAh = 8800mAh each time you charge. At 300mA, that's 29-37 hours depending on your current. Calculate your charge time according to your actual current. Hopefully, they are pretty constant and not variable within that range. The WORST thing you can do is cut a charge short and then discharge it - great way to cells. Don't fall into the trap of these crazy deep discharges. They are a shortcut that increases risk of damage. Conduct 3X charge/discharge cycles to 132V, 119V and 106V. Again, 29-37 hours charging EACH TIME. Below 145V limit discharge currents to 200-400mA. You can use any current you like above that. To properly do this, you're looking at nearly a week of down time. You can compromise by doing one cycle per weekend. You can expedite the last charge before driving as follows: 1) Charge for 6 hours 2) disconnect 12V for 60 seconds, reconnect 3) Start car and idle charge until it stops 4) repeat 2 & 3 a total of 3 times 5) grid charge overnight until you have to leave for work on Monday. #2 may take 30+ minutes the first time, 3rd time will probably take very little time. NEVER grid charge without confirming you have battery cooling. IPU lid must be in place and secured, and you should confirm air is being sucked in from the upper deck. 3A will be insufficient to drive the cooling fan at anything greater than about 40% duty cycle, but that should be more than enough. Charging in very low temperatures is very inefficient. If it's much below 10°C, you may need to increase your charge times or use a small space heater to raise the interior temperature of the car. Otherwise, excellent work. I really like that PWM controller. Good luck! You've done the right thing by getting after it BEFORE you have an IMA light. |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Thanks for the feedback S. Keith, you seem to be one of the most knowledgeable people around here for these honda's.
Ive gotten some more of the final items finished from the list today, Wired the voltmeter to the 200v rail. tested the pwm controller with a cpu fan Wired the charge cable (box to connector) Verified the final voltage with the display With the pwm im planning to keep the pwm control board inside the car side harness as i did not account for the pwm signal when buying the charge cable. With only 4 wires im limited to 12v and 200v rail. I did not want to common ground these. So the pwm will recieve the 12v rail and from that the +- and signal to the nearby fan. One thing i realised was that when in normal use the car would likely power the pwm controller and cause conflicting pwm signal to the fan. I will get around this by putting a diode in line between the controller and the fan ensuring it does not get back powered . |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
After doing a trial run of opening the ipu compartment and checking where the harness could be routed I see that it could be possible to wire the fan without removing the IPU. But i guess wiring to the battery relay would be difficult.
I followed the hybrid automotive directions and from that im wondering if anyone has suggestions on diy splicing into the fan harness? Has anyone made an adapter that fits between the oem connectors? Other than that the hookup seems to be fairly easy. I was happy to see afterwards that the radio did niot need a code. |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Originally Posted by Kevinmce
(Post 267152)
After doing a trial run of opening the ipu compartment and checking where the harness could be routed I see that it could be possible to wire the fan without removing the IPU. But i guess wiring to the battery relay would be difficult.
I followed the hybrid automotive directions and from that im wondering if anyone has suggestions on diy splicing into the fan harness? Has anyone made an adapter that fits between the oem connectors? Other than that the hookup seems to be fairly easy. I was happy to see afterwards that the radio did niot need a code. Splice connectors: https://www.zoro.com/power-first-dis...saAk0QEALw_wcB Yes, Hybrid Automotive has made an adapter as part of their harness. Radio code is usually only necessary after a 12V disconnect. If you did disconnect, then maybe it's only on U.S. spec cars? Both of my '06s, 1 with and the other without NAV needed codes following 12V disconnect. |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Indeed as following the hybrid automotive instructions i disconnected the 12v battery, the radio lost its preset channells but no need for radio code. :)
The splice connectors look ok tho the pwm signal wire is smaller and require a different splice. I was really after a male/female connector to go inline with the oem harness. If its not available I might aswell cut and solder my connections. Edit, found the connector harness online, nice photo of it too, but not worth shipping to ireland. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...764cef7d40.jpg |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
So I've gotten some splice connectors in the auto store 4 for 75 cent. They will likely work for all connections, I'm building an enclosure for my pwm controller and going to get it wired up.
One thing I'm getting a little lost on is the best diode to use... The voltage drop I'm not worried about. I can adjust the supply to over volt a little. The max sustained current should be 3A at 12v and I'm havi g trouble reading this from the data sheets. Anyone with a bit of experience with diodes able to help? Diodes I have available are: 1N4148 1N4007 1N5819 1N5399 1N5408 1N5822 FR107 FR207 https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...4cba58b441.jpg |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
For example, 1N4007 would protect against 1000V and up to 1.0A. I checked a couple others, but I didn't see anything up to 3A.
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Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
After reading lots on diodes I see that a the 1N5822 is rated for 3A continuous, I did a test yesterday with it using a decent size DC motor and applying a load the diode did not heat up. So I think it's a safe bet. I'll do a test with the in car fan connected before closing everything up.
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Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Yep. That would do it.
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Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
So another thing I'm questioning myself on is the ground wire for the 200v & 12v. Since I wired in the volt/amp display the ground for both are common. This is because the display has an internal ground link of its power and sense inputs.
I'm not sure what the risk is here... I could still add a separate dc supply for the display, just wonder what could go wrong with both the display and fan(12v circuit) having common ground with the 200v? |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
The configuration you describe is pretty common. Should be fine. Just make sure the charger housing isn't part of the ground.
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Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Ahh, thanks for the info, I've confirmed the psu case and compete charger case are not part of the 12/200v rails, just the ac220v earth.
So just waiting for an opportunity to open the car again to hookup the harness. I'll report back once it's in and tested. |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
How did you get 200V out of those 2X 90V supplies? Where they that inaccurate?
I've purchased a similar version of one of those signal generators (came up along with the unit you purchased): https://www.ebay.com/itm/283294001111 Single channel only, screw down terminals and cut out mounting... more because it ships from a vendor in the states, but I'm okay with that... :) |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Yea those supplies where not accurate. At least they are 1-2v within each other. Maybe under load they may drop voltage, do you have any suggestions for a test load?
I'm guessing any incandescent bulbs would be too much? Maybe not...(BTW 220vac here) Really nice display you got, great for a professional looking charger! |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Pretty impressive they're that far off. You sure your meter is accurate?
Incandescent bulbs have lower resistance when they aren't white hot, and it varies with voltage, so it might work, but I don't know if it will allow you to verify peak voltage (probably not)... just whatever voltage the current/resistance combo permits. You'll find out when the pack peaks. Since you're also wired to monitor current, you'll know your max current when you first start charging. Hopefully, that will stay the same/near same until at least 195V. If they are actually only 90V, you'll never get the battery fully charged at 180V because the current will eventually slow to zero as the voltage maxes out the power supplies. |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
I've checked with three multimeters and the display. So certain of the voltage. I'll wire up a discharge cable and bulb socket tomorrow, will at least let me try the supplies against a bulb to see how they behave connected to a load.
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Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Tested the charger with a 40w bulb
The cold resistance of the bulb is 153Ohms Measured voltage after the bulb is 84.29v Current measured was 100mA Not sure what to make if the results, but at least the meter seems to be working. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...ea277b41f5.jpg |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Planning to finally install my harness into my car this weekend, I had been watching various videos of commercial harness installs(ha & maxx volts) and noticed a fuse installed neat the negative connection.
Would a normal 220vac 2a fuse work for this? |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Should be more than enough. You're only going to be pulling about .3A*200V = 60W max.
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Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Got the harness installed today, tested the fan control and was able to adjust the speed without any issues. Also read out the battery voltage (174v).
Did not begin any charging yet need to find a stretch of days to take it off the road. However I did notice that the fan is running constantly at the set duty cycle of the controller. The diode is wired in line with the 12v supply from the controller, maybe it could not handle the current and is already shorted. I guess a relay would be a safe bet but I'll need to wait for one. Did not get time to diagnose it today. If that diode failed I may try two in parallel. |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Before you get too crazy with it, I would just try a simple grid charge sufficient to input 6875mAh (8800 preferred) and assess the performance. Have you checked the tap voltages? Are you dealing with a P0A7F, or do you have other codes?
There have been instances of full blast fan operation following the installation of the maxx volts chargers even after harness removal. If the diode shorted, I would expect this operation, not that it runs at whatever speed at which the controller is set. A wiring diagram would help. |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Hi Steve,
I have not checked with an odb reader but I seen no check engine light. I'm not sure what "check the tap voltages" means but I have readout the battery voltage using the power supply volt display. 174v was the reading with a full 8 bars on the SOC in car indicator. I have drawn a schematic of the harness below. I could keep it as is but the fan at 50% is pretty loud, I can't say that I ever heard the fan on with normal driving(its not hot here in Ireland). I can access the controller easily as it's tucked in at the left side of the battery compartment. Once I at least have a look at the controller while the car is running will tell me of its getting power. The full charge will be at earliest this weekend due to a need for the car. FYI I used a crude mosfet diode as an icon for the fan controller. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...430f550217.png Harness schematic |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l4sj188ldwv88cz/HCH2%20BCM%20Connector%20Check.png?dl=0
Probing the back of the above connector (where the wires go into it, do not unplug) will give you the 11 tap voltages the car monitors for battery health. Each measurement is 12 of the 132 cells. More later |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Originally Posted by Kevinmce
(Post 267244)
Hi Steve,
I have not checked with an odb reader but I seen no check engine light. I'm not sure what "check the tap voltages" means but I have readout the battery voltage using the power supply volt display. 174v was the reading with a full 8 bars on the SOC in car indicator. I have drawn a schematic of the harness below. I could keep it as is but the fan at 50% is pretty loud, I can't say that I ever heard the fan on with normal driving(its not hot here in Ireland). I can access the controller easily as it's tucked in at the left side of the battery compartment. Once I at least have a look at the controller while the car is running will tell me of its getting power. The full charge will be at earliest this weekend due to a need for the car. FYI I used a crude mosfet diode as an icon for the fan controller. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...430f550217.png Harness schematic The only risk associated with running the fan at 50% all the time is burning out the blower... but... you're likely to extend the life of the battery as heat and hot-spots due to insufficient cooling are key factors in poor longevity. For simplicity, the signal generator shouldn't be in the harness but in the charger, i.e., when you disconnect the charger, the signal generator is disconnected as well. I forgot you were at the stage of recals and had not yet generated a code. It's worth putting it on charge even just overnight to see if the recals decrease. |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Indeed I intended to have the signal generator in the charger but I forgot I needed 5 core for when buying the cable. Ended up with a 4 core and tried to create a workaround.
I may just go buy a 5 core wire, wish I did that before installing the harness :) But on the bright side I was able to install the complete harness without removing the IPU or the battery. So should be an easy replacement. Will just need to redo the connectors and fuse. |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Confirmed today that the pwm generator is indeed getting power when the car is started, so the diode is probably shorted.
Looking at my options I've opted for trying a standard automotive relay, it will be less effort for now. I'll at least get it in and tested this week and hopfully move onto my first charge/discharge cycles next weekend. |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Or the diode is backwards? :)
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Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Hummm, If that was the case then I should not have been able to power on the fan using the charger.
I'll have it opened up tomorrow and have a closer look at the diode. |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Agreed.
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Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Edit: also just for reference yesterday I did a 100km trip back roads(hilly and sharp bends) 100km/h limit with the avg mpg reset at start. The car averaged 5.8 L/100km or 40.5 mpg. I was not hypermilling in any way probably averaged 70/80km/h
FYI, updated my schematic with the intended relay. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...f4f191a273.png Harness schematic with relay |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
So it seems the above resulted in the same issue....
I considered what the cause could be and decided to try a diode between the pwm generator and the fan. This did stop the fan running when the car was started but also stopped the pwn generator from running the fan. I then decided to connect the 12v permanently and instead switch the pwm wire with the relay. Finally the whole thing worked as expected!!! Woohooo! :D A short 5min test with the charger 200v supply turned on I seen a steady 295mA and a rise from 176 to 178v. I also built a new enclosure for the pwm generator, see a new schematic and some photos below. (uploading) https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...19faccccbb.png Final working schematic https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...b4368ffba5.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...f91ca403e2.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...25104977e0.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...5d60698435.jpg Voltage before charge https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...b49e52a237.jpg Voltage after 5 mins |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
looking good.
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Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
So onto charging and discharging.
I have a 36 hour window twice a week. Planning to start 6pm and have till 6am two days later. 1. 6:00pm - 6:30pm 3x reconnect 60sec 12v and start the car between to get highest SOC via car. 2. 6:30pm - 12:00pm grid charge, expected 180v -> ~190v note voltage and current. 3. 12:00pm - 8:00am continue charge overnight and expect little to no change in voltage. Current should be minimal >30ma by the morning. 4. 8:00am - ~4:00pm discharge 60w till 157v and 40w till voltage drops below 90v 5. 4:00pm - 8:00pm grid charge expected 90v - <157v 6. 8:00pm - 8:30pm 3x reconnect 60sec 12v and start the car between to get highest SOC via car. 7. 8:30pm - 12:00pm grid charge, expected 180v -> ~195v note voltage and current. 8. 12:00pm - 8:00am continue charge overnight and expect little change in voltage(maybe up to 198v). Current should be minimal >30ma by the morning. Steve I'd appreciate your input. I think I have the sequence correct. Maybe some steps I have planned too little time or too much time. And I'd also like input on the discharge voltage. Thanks! |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
I'm I'm seeing about 13.5 hours of grid charge time following the 12V reset/charges? I would add 4+ hours to that and cut your discharge time short for the first charge.
Confirming you have 220V rated bulbs, so current based on wattage should be about half expected. If that's the case, I would run the highest wattage bulbs possible down to 158V. Up to 100W down to 145V, 60W to 132V and 40W to 106V. Those are maximums. You can always choose to go lower. If you stick with your plan, you may not be able to do a meaningful discharge at the current that 30W of power yields. Limit total discharge time below 132V to 5 hours no matter what voltage you hit. #2, you should peak higher, though you may not in the 5.5 hour given. #3, you should be > 190V, and the only way current will reduce is if the voltages raises above the power supply voltages, i.e., if they perform like normal power supplies, they will deliver their constant 292mA of current until their max voltage is reached. #5, increase to 5 hours to ensure > 20% SoC. The first 1-2 hours of charging won't yield any usable capacity. #8, see #3. Try to allow about 30 minutes of sit time prior to driving after the final topping charge. During your first drive put it in neutral during engine braking/braking until you see the SoC bar move down by 1. You want to minimize/prevent regenerative braking when the battery is poked full of juice. The car will sense it, but there is a small delay where the car may spike the pack with 30-50A when it's full before it realizes it's full. Best to avoid that. |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
1 Attachment(s)
I've created a new list for myself with your input, it's linked below as an xls to calculate your key times based on a start time and duration of each step.
Based on this I'll likely need to do it over the weekend. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...0d2463747e.jpg |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
Concerning step 5 in the sheet, do not be surprised if the voltage exceeds 157V.
The 30 minute wait prior to driving is optional, but it gives the voltages a chance to settle. Wait or not, the most important thing is to limit regenerative braking until the SoC meter drops, so you have some confidence that the car has a grasp of the true state of the battery. Best results are obtained by logging time, voltage and current on a reasonable frequency - maybe hourly for charging and every 30 minutes for discharging. A mutimeter in 10A ammeter mode can be put in series with the discharge bulb. With time, voltage and current log data, you can calculate the capacity of the pack. If you couple pack log data with the 11 tap voltage readings, you can identify possible problem subpacks. Wrapping my head around the 220V bulbs... a 100W bulb will likely only pull about 350mA in the operational range of this exercise (based on 450mA @ 220V). That's 16 hours of discharge time assuming a perfect pack. A 60W bulb will be about 0.2A at the prescribed change over voltage. Given that, I would skip the 40W bulb and just use the 60W bulb. Again, if you can get higher wattage bulbs OR put two 100W in parallel, I would recommend that to ensure you can do some meaningful work in the allotted discharge times allowed. Again, you will only see a decrease in the charging current if the battery voltage hits the 200V peak of the PSU assuming they operate likely normal CC LED drivers. Since they are so much higher than the rated 90V, I would not be surprised by abnormal behavior above 180V. Along those lines, if you do not hit a peak voltage while maintaining the 292mA or so of charge current, the battery may never reach full charge, and discharging below 145V may be risky due to perpetual imbalance and excessive polarity reversal of the least full cells. |
Re: Building a HCHII grid charger
I'll do my best to log regular voltages and current during charge/discharge and for now put my multimeter in line during discharge(wanna figure a way to use the charger display in both directions.)
I'll pay particular attention when charging to max voltage to see that the mA remains high. I'll likely get two 100w bulbs running in parallel till 157v. Also could it be a quick option to take the car out for a drive after charging and drain as much as I can using neutral during breaking to speed things up? |
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