HCH-II PWM Frequency - Grid charger in the making - GreenHybrid - Hybrid Cars


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Old 07-13-2018, 07:07 AM
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Question HCH-II PWM Frequency - Grid charger in the making

I am building a grid charger for a 07 Civic Hybrid, and would like to have a variable fan control for the blower fan, as 12v10a is a little excessive, even at high charge / discharge. I found a cheap PWM controller that would work on Amazon (
Amazon Amazon
), but it runs at 12khz, and have a feeling this fan is not standard frequencies.

I understand I can short the pin and force a 100% fan speed, but looking for something less, jet engine like. I guess another solution would be to have a potentiometer with those pins already grounded, and then reducing the voltage that way, but I am not sure how the IC on the fan will like having a lower voltage, normally something this strong will be little more picky, esp for a starting surge load.

Grid charger will be pretty basic though, I will be creating a harness that leads to the trunk, and depending on how the fan is connected, will have a bypass board hooked to a switch, Car controlled vs manual control for charge, and the normal 350mah LED drivers running in series, and a 130w 12v psu for the fan, of course a fancy 5$ amazon volt meter built in.

If you have any info for me, I'd greatly appreciate it! Worst case I just rip the pack out and charge it inside with a normal fan, but I plan on being able to do a quick top up as needed with minimal effort in the future.

Cheers
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Old 07-13-2018, 08:41 AM
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Default Re: HCH-II PWM Frequency - Grid charger in the making

It won't like lower voltage at all. It will not work.

That frequency is probably fine, and it would work with lower frequency. It's not looking for a specific frequency, it's looking for the 12V pulses.

The **** on that unit adjusts the duty cycle, which is what controls the speed. if you always run it at a lower duty cycle, you can get away with a lower power PSU.
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:48 AM
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Default Re: HCH-II PWM Frequency - Grid charger in the making

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Originally Posted by S Keith View Post
It won't like lower voltage at all. It will not work.

That frequency is probably fine, and it would work with lower frequency. It's not looking for a specific frequency, it's looking for the 12V pulses.

The **** on that unit adjusts the duty cycle, which is what controls the speed. if you always run it at a lower duty cycle, you can get away with a lower power PSU.
Thanks again S. Keith,

As always, full of knowledge! I will likely get a 120w PSU as the price is negligible between the two, ~5$ from 50w to 120w, and I'll still run the volt meter with it, as, like you said, I still won't be pushing it at 100% anyway, but I like being on the safer side, as my GF will be the one using it and want it to be as painless as possible for her to use and not worry about a bad setting, just plug and play.

I may also get a AC-DC PSU, and see if I can't create a self discharge unit, but that will be after dismantling the unit and seeing what kind of control I can get on the discharge / blower fan. If I can get it to draw no more than 40w during discharge, I'm laughing (43w after loss).

I'm not sure if you remember my old thread, but that 12v battery light is still coming on, and from what I can tell, it's the DC-DC converter that is causing issues, so hopefully I can find a cheap one at a scrap yard, after that the car is going to be top notch, but that 51r is a big upgrade anyways, so if it does come on, she has a little more headroom in case we can't get it working again.

Cheers
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:33 PM
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Default Re: HCH-II PWM Frequency - Grid charger in the making

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Originally Posted by jeb101 View Post
Thanks again S. Keith,

As always, full of knowledge! (1) I will likely get a 120w PSU as the price is negligible between the two, ~5$ from 50w to 120w, and I'll still run the volt meter with it, as, like you said, I still won't be pushing it at 100% anyway, but I like being on the safer side, as my GF will be the one using it and want it to be as painless as possible for her to use and not worry about a bad setting, just plug and play.

(2) I may also get a AC-DC PSU, and see if I can't create a self discharge unit, but that will be after dismantling the unit and seeing what kind of control I can get on the discharge / blower fan. If I can get it to draw no more than 40w during discharge, I'm laughing (43w after loss).

(3) I'm not sure if you remember my old thread, but that 12v battery light is still coming on, and from what I can tell, it's the DC-DC converter that is causing issues, so hopefully I can find a cheap one at a scrap yard, after that the car is going to be top notch, but that 51r is a big upgrade anyways, so if it does come on, she has a little more headroom in case we can't get it working again.

Cheers
(1) Agreed
(2) I don't follow you at all.
(3) Revisited it. Still not sure what the issue is. IIRC, a failed DC-DC converter has a code associated with it, but the seemingly appropriate voltage response followed by what appears to be an inability to charge the 12V suggests something's up with the Dc-DC.
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: HCH-II PWM Frequency - Grid charger in the making

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Originally Posted by S Keith View Post
(1) Agreed
(2) I don't follow you at all.
(3) Revisited it. Still not sure what the issue is. IIRC, a failed DC-DC converter has a code associated with it, but the seemingly appropriate voltage response followed by what appears to be an inability to charge the 12V suggests something's up with the Dc-DC.
As for number 2, basically, the idea is to have a switch that takes the Pos / Neg leads like you would the discharge, and use the blower fan as the discharge load instead of the bulbs. The Meanwell EPS-120-12 is in spec for the fan, as well as allowing not only AC input but DC also, meaning if I install a switch, I could basically only power the fan with the IMA battery, but I'd need to look deeper into this device, as it doesn't specify the amperage I can put into this machine with DC. It would not stand to do anything more than be a loud discharging device, really, more I think of it, it's kind of a dumb idea as I'm trying NOT to have a loud blower fan going... Neat, but dumb...

Number 3, the battery light issue is very weird, this is it's behavior.

1a. Turn car on, Red 12v light comes on
2a. drive until ~40mph, pop in neutral, turn off car, turn on car, 90% success if going above 40mph.

1b. Turn car on, Red 12V light comes on
2b. Car decides it can charge on it's own, light turns off, battery charges, IMA functional again

Now, it makes the issue worst if AC is on, so we kill it before turning on the car, and also try and keep the car running until IMA is charged, this will slow down this issue, but not fix it.


I've noticed there was a recall for these DC-DC, but this VIN is not part of it, I've also seen that this is a bundle of stuff, and not just a single device, it has your IMA controller, DC-DC, and AC compressor starter, individual moduals, but still one piece when bought from official channels.

From the reading material I have on the civic, it's a tough issue to diagnose as I can't find sensor data, as well it's hard to diagnose a sporadically failing part that you don't have the nominal values for, so I'm just running around with my head cut off.

Local dealership basically said 1000$ for us to open the hood, and then we will decide how much to charge you from there, but my quote was "It definitely won't be under 3000$ (CAD) and we won't be able to guarantee it'll fix it", so they are out of the question...
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Old 07-13-2018, 03:23 PM
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Default Re: HCH-II PWM Frequency - Grid charger in the making

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Originally Posted by jeb101 View Post
Number 3, the battery light issue is very weird, this is it's behavior.

1a. Turn car on, Red 12v light comes on
2a. drive until ~40mph, pop in neutral, turn off car, turn on car, 90% success if going above 40mph.

1b. Turn car on, Red 12V light comes on
2b. Car decides it can charge on it's own, light turns off, battery charges, IMA functional again

Now, it makes the issue worst if AC is on, so we kill it before turning on the car, and also try and keep the car running until IMA is charged, this will slow down this issue, but not fix it.


I've noticed there was a recall for these DC-DC, but this VIN is not part of it, I've also seen that this is a bundle of stuff, and not just a single device, it has your IMA controller, DC-DC, and AC compressor starter, individual moduals, but still one piece when bought from official channels.

From the reading material I have on the civic, it's a tough issue to diagnose as I can't find sensor data, as well it's hard to diagnose a sporadically failing part that you don't have the nominal values for, so I'm just running around with my head cut off.

Local dealership basically said 1000$ for us to open the hood, and then we will decide how much to charge you from there, but my quote was "It definitely won't be under 3000$ (CAD) and we won't be able to guarantee it'll fix it", so they are out of the question...
Ah... sorry. That makes sense. I forgot the meanwells can frequently take AC or DC power. That's a good idea if you can make it work.

Generally speaking, you can't control current except with a resistor, and that also creates a voltage drop. All you need to do is supply the correct voltage AND deliver enough current to meet the devices demand, i.e., it doesn't matter if the battery can supply 100A, the PSU will only pull whatever is needed based on its ratings and the load attached to the PSU.

In other words, if you feed PSU the necessary 120VDC+ and the battery can supply 1A of current, the PSU will provide 12V up to 10A based on demand.

I would recommend the LRS-100-12 to keep the power drain at lower voltages below 1A by default. Slightly more expensive, and it includes a housing. I also like the idea because, it will cut-out below 120VDC input. You should be able to regulate/reduce the drain with the fan controller as well. It would make deep discharges impossible, but multiple discharges to 120V will absolutely give you substantial benefit.

The more I think about it, the more I like it. Concerning noise, if you've ever heard the IMA fan on full blast, it's really not very loud at all.

Just thought of something... This could be ground wire related. There are 3 ground straps: 1) main (-) terminal cable, 2) flexible ground strap from CVT to driver side engine mount, 3) flexible ground strap from engine to passenger engine mount. Memory may be failing me on their locations (or I'm getting it confused with a different vehicle), but I'm certain there are three. The CVT strap is on the top of the CVT, and the engine strap is on top.

This is a common problem on Hondas. Best to ensure:
1) 12V is 100% healthy and fully charged
2) all 3 ground cables are new, and they are secured to ground points with a clean metal to metal connection.

Once you've confirmed the above, you can troubleshoot the 12V issue in earnest.

If we've discussed this before, or you mentioned it, please dismiss me as an old fool.

Thanks,

Steve
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Old 07-14-2018, 07:21 AM
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Default Re: HCH-II PWM Frequency - Grid charger in the making

Would anybody have pictures or a link to where I could find the fan header for the IMA blower? I don't have access to her car presently and hoping to get a last minute Mouser order in with a compatible connector if possible, simply make a bypass board in the trunk, simply unplug from the IMA and connect it to the discharge setup, no switch. I'd have a board with 3 headers.

1. Normal operation
2. Grid charge
3. Discharge

For discharge I will likely make a switch in the back that requires me to kill the master AC switch using the PSU switch to allow DC going in, I need to be safe so I don't blow something up. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure 120V AC and 160v DC don't play well together..

Cheers
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Old 07-14-2018, 08:56 AM
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Default Re: HCH-II PWM Frequency - Grid charger in the making

https://photos.app.goo.gl/5T6ZzbTN8TEypQpN7

I'm a little concerned. I'm a n00b at electronics, but it seems that I've explained some of the absolute basics that you didn't understand. I feel like you're being a little overzealous.
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Old 07-15-2018, 05:23 PM
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Default Re: HCH-II PWM Frequency - Grid charger in the making

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Originally Posted by S Keith View Post
https://photos.app.goo.gl/5T6ZzbTN8TEypQpN7

I'm a little concerned. I'm a n00b at electronics, but it seems that I've explained some of the absolute basics that you didn't understand. I feel like you're being a little overzealous.

Wicked, thank you so much for the picture! This will absolutely help with finding a proper connector.

Don't be concerned though, I understand the risks and safety behind this, I've done my own electronics stuff in the past, normally I draw it out and get my buddy to vet it if I am not confident, English is not my main language and some times I don't reply clearly. But I feel confident in doing this with the fan, it's actually pretty straight forward, just a little extra wiring, and ensuring the components are compatible with the amount of current, as well as AC / DC.

I do appreciate the concern though, thank you for looking out!

Cheers


Edit: Little digging around, I believe I found the part you linked me, could you confirm if this is correct? One step closer in finding the supplier, but if this is the case, I believe it's a JPW connector.

Amazon Amazon

Last edited by jeb101; 07-16-2018 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 07-16-2018, 02:40 PM
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Default Re: HCH-II PWM Frequency - Grid charger in the making

That is not the part I linked you, but it may be the part you need. You'll have to confirm by searching for that P/N on parts websites.
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