As a Canadian, I can't be in this suit. But the mere fact that this suit exists tells a reasonable person that Honda Canada is well aware of a technical issue with the IMA battery and the software technique to mask the problem.

Personally, after reading all the documents, if you settle now, that absolves any future claim you may have (i.e. being rear-ended because your IMA was not assisting you in accelerating) against Honda. I wouldn't settle unless it meant a new IMA battery as required.....

Yes. Some possible symptoms: less bars of assist than you once got under the same acceleration circumstances; loss of stop/start when logically you should have it (i.e. fully warmed up, modulate the brake to a glide/stop, no "defrost" on, at least 4 bars showing in the SOC meter, etc); a couple of recals a week/day/hour i.e. after 2 or 3 assisted accelerations, the SOC meter drops to 1 or 2 squares, you see 2 or 3 green bars and have no assist and no stop start until the meter then bounces back after 3 minutes to what appears as a 'full' charge (actually, the new full charge of a weaker battery)....

If under very light (in city) acceleration, if all you get is a consistent 3 bars of assist or less, I'd say you have the latest software update that really limits any assist to try and save the battery.....

 

what is a 'recal'?

 

Long winded answer (gets me ready to explain things to a judge if required): the car and software was all designed based on the assumption that the large Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) battery has a "given amount of stored/potential energy".

When your new car IMA system initially starts your internal combustion engine (ICE), you do so by 'borrowing' a tiny bit of that "given amount of stored/potential energy".

As you begin to drive your new car, that state of charge (SOC) thermometer has all the white squares showing (i.e. battery SOC is full).

Next, you press on the accelerator to get up to desired speed. You see some white assist bars showing as the IMA motor adds its power to the ICE. You have now 'borrowed' some more of that "given amount of stored/potential energy".

The car software treats the battery pack like a checking account. You continue to accelerate to 62 mph (100 kph). You see alot of white assist bars showing, thus you continue to borrow from that "given amount of stored/potential energy" bank account.

The SOC starts to drop a few squares, not from a direct reading of the battery, but by figuring how long and how many white assist bars did you use in the aforementioned acceleration.

You begin to coast and you see some green re-generation (re-gen) bars. You are slowing down, but you are regenerating i.e. depositing some "given amount of stored/potential energy" back into that bank account.

The software compares all of those first withdrawals you made against that first deposit. Then you accelerate again (withdraw) and slow down (deposit).

Days, weeks, months, years go by. You have assist when you want it. Your SOC meter gradually goes up and down as the car software "dead reckons" every single withdrawal and deposit you make from/into that IMA bank account.

As long as the initial software engineered assumption of the ability for that large IMA battery to bank and HOLD any available deposits holds true, then that "dead reckoning" counting of every single assist and re-gen for the last couple of years holds true and your SOC meter goes up and down 'gradually' on a day to day, drive to drive and minute by minute basis.

Now assume your IMA battery can no longer soak up and hold as much energy as it used to. You keep withdrawing from the bank account and you keep depositing into it. The software thinks all that deposit has been soaked up and its 'dead reckoning' count of your battery SOC is happy as a clam. The problem is, your software THINKS it has more stored energy in its bank account that it really does.

Your SOC meter shows six or seven squares, (its been counting for years) and you must make an emergency acceleration.

You floor it. You see all your white assist bars for about 1/2 a second before they disappear, or you see two or three bars for a second or so before they disappear, or you see no assist bars before they disappear.

Instead of the IMA assisted 123 ft. lbs. of torque you wanted, needed, expected to propel your 1304 kg (2875 lbs) Honda Civic Hybrid.....someone almost rear ends you because all you got was 89 ft. lbs. of un-assisted torque.

Sidebar: (for when Honda says all you need is the hybrid ICE): why does a basic Honda Civic weighing 1227 kg (2705 lbs) come with an ICE that produces 128 ft. lbs. of torque (for a Civic that is 77 kg//170 lbs lighter than the Civic Hybrid)?

A software "IMA battery safety mechanism" just cut you off. This battery safety mechanism is designed such that in any circumstance, when a specified IMA battery low voltage threshold has been reached, to prevent polarity reversal in one, some or many cels, no further withdrawals are allowed until a software "audit" of the bank account takes place.

This is the "recalibration" or "recal".

Your IMA battery "account" is overdrawn. Not your fault. All those green bar re-gen deposits you and your cars software thought were being accepted and stored in the IMA battery "account" were lost due to a deteriorating battery.

So for the next three minutes, your SOC meter shows none, or one, or two white squares and you have no assist while you see a few green re-gen bars as your car now does a 'forced re-gen'. This is the mid phase of a re-cal.

The bank examiners (your cars software) take three minutes to sort the count and force as many deposits (regen) into your account AS IT WILL NOW HOLD.

The deposits stop because the software knows when there is no more uptake. Your weaker than new (or last recal) IMA battery just will not take any more deposits. So now your SOC meter zooms back to read 'full'.

But it is 'full' only because the weaker battery will not uptake any more electricity to store. So the dead reckoning count begins again. You start making withdrawals (ICE start, idle stop/start, assisted accelerations) and deposits (gentle coasting, light/moderate use of the brakes).

The SOC meter keeps count, but it does not know its count started on a bank account at a new lower 'normal full'.

As time goes on, you begin to have more of these re-cals.

Honda uploads a new software package that simply limits how many withdrawals you can make.

Obviously, if your withdrawals are curtailed, that account (even one with a lower 'normal full') will take longer to reach that software "IMA battery safety mechanism" to cut your assist off and bring in the bank examiners and have another re-count (re-cal).

Does this crude example make sense to you?

 

[quote=P180;239947] I'm beginning to suspect that the software "update" may be the cause of the reduction in mpg's.quote]

Looks as if I was correct. I spoke to Honda America (HA) about my issue and was told that the update issued by them was configured to take pressure off of the battery. My response to that was that this would mean that more stress was put on the engine resulting in fewer mpg's. HA agreed that this would be the result. When I told HA that this is an unacceptable fix because the car was advertised to get between 42 and 48 mpg and their software update interferes with the ability of the car to get that mileage. I am now getting between 32 & 35 mpg. HA had no reply to this and would not enable me to talk to a case manager because, 'Now that there are no indicator lights on and the car is running, there is nothing wrong with the car.'

I did receive HA's offer of $200.00 to resolve this issue. I find that offer hardly worth mentioning and only do so to note that I am aware of it. I find an offer of $200.00 to resolve a problem that will cost in excess of $3,000.00 to be offensive in that it suggests that, if I accept it, I must be an idiot.

Coincidentally, there was a story about this very issue today on the morning news program Good Morning America.

 

As I suspected, the software update did nothing more than mask the problem. Your turn to prove me wrong Honda.

 

P180: What is needed is someone with a known good IMA battery in their Civic to go with you in yours and have a side by side driving demonstration.

When the good battery Civic gets more than 3 bars of assist, no re-cals and expected mileage results and yours does not, be sure to get them to explain the discrepancy.

Or better yet, why not set-up a test with the EPA and have that directorate do the formal road test for fuel economy. If "nothing is wrong with the car" and yet it suddenly will only get 32 mpg on the formal EPA test, would this not have an over-all effect on the C.A.F.E. numbers that Honda claims to have met for the model year of your car?

 

navguy12 - i'm an accountant so your checking account analogy made me smile. good explanation -thanks. so the clue for a recal is if the white squares on the SOL are down to 2-4? I have noticed a distinct lack of accelleration over the past few months. i;ll check the SOC when i drive home tonight.

alot of good publicity yesterday and today about the honda problems and the woman in LA that has taken Honda to small claims court. Lets hope something good comes out of it that forces Honda to fix the problem.

 

I'm glad someone can follow my erratic view of the world and smile!!!!

Not all the time. Usually what happens is the State of Charge (SOC) squares quickly go down to zero, or one, or two showing along with a forced regeneration (one, or two, or three green bars) for the next two-three minutes immediately thereafter followed by the SOC meter suddenly showing all available white squares (to the top) i.e. a 'full' state of charge.

Agree. If you call for full acceleration and the software is also calling for a re-cal to start a micro-second before hand (or the real state of voltage in the battery pack is at 'the tipping point'), you and the ICE expect the IMA assist but don't get any......

I'm a mild hyper-miler. Over the life of my car I have gotten (US conversion) 49 miles per US gallon. I use AC less than 10% of all city driving in the summer and only about 50% of highway trips in the summer. I always select the absolute lowest fan speed for this. I never exceed the legal speed limit (!) or 62 mph (100 kph). I treat the accelerator peddle like an un-cooked egg is between my foot and the peddle. With the software update, I have had to dial back my rate of acceleration even more to get 3 bars of assist. Naturally I always look ahead and glide to the next stop light. I'm always in the right lane as that is where slow drivers belong.....

This link shows the actual US government fuel economy test criteria:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

In detailed test information, it shows in city driving tests, the maximum acceleration rate of 3.3 mph/sec (5.3 kph/sec) is used. In other words, for one to accelerate from a full stop to 30 miles per hour and get the EPA city rating requires (30/3.3) nine (9) seconds (!). If everyone in the North America drove in the fashion stipulated in the test criteria I bet oil imports would be cut in half, but I digress

 

Excellent Discussion! Thank you Navguy12 for the great explanation of recals.
I would like to share my story in the hopes that it will be useful to someone.

I own a 2006 HCHII that I bought in June 2011 at 79K miles in Houston, TX. The IMA battery was mostly bad when I purchased the vehicle and as time progressed it became ridiculously bad with multiple recals occurring in the course of my 17 mile commute to work. No warning lights ever came on.

I took the car to a local dealership before it reached 80K miles (still within the original warranty) to have the DC-to-DC converter replaced under a recall notice and at that time I complained about the recals and asked the service rep to record my complaint in his notes. No warning lights were on, but I was persistent and talked with the service manager about my battery problems. The dealership had almost zero experience working with hybrids, so I was basically teaching them about the HCHII using information gleaned from online forums (not a good sign). The service manager asked one of his techs do a quick diagnostic on my IMA system and battery. It showed that it had 18% charge capacity. The manager told me to just keep driving it and as it got worse the light should come on then bring it in.

Well, over the course of the next five months the frequency of the battery recals increased, but no light would come on. It was obvious that the battery was deteriorating, so I took the car in every month to have another diagnostic done (happily they didn’t charge me for any of the diagnostics) and have a tech look at the charge capacity of the battery, but the results were always the same. It would show 18%, which I knew was wrong, because the recals were getting worse.

Side note: I would love to know the standards of deviations or error limits for the internal diagnostic system on the HCHII, because I believe they are quite large. I think that the software of the internal diagnostics is only reporting results based off of the most favorable assumptions. I am an experimental physicist and know that with any complex system involving electronics, mechanical components, software, etc. there are always assumptions and approximations.

The manager told me that the capacity would have to fall below 15% before he could talk with the regional Honda rep about replacing the battery, which by then was outside the warranty. He told me that even though the problems started while it was under warranty I would have to pay for the battery out-of-pocket, but he would try to goodwill as much as possible.

Finally, in mid-November 2011 when I took the car in for a diagnostic it briefly showed a charge capacity of 13%. Just one minute later the tech ran the IMA diagnostic again and low-and-behold it showed 18%. Crappy diagnostics! Luckily he had saved the data from his first diagnostic and we used that to convince the regional Honda rep that the battery needed to be replaced. They good willed 75% of the cost of replacement, but that still left me $680 out-of-pocket.

The old NiMH battery was replaced with a lithium battery on 17Nov2011 at 88K miles. I was very happy that they installed a newer lithium battery instead of the old heavy NiMH version. I walked away happy to have resolved the problem, or so I thought. The car and the IMA system were working great for about four months then the recals started again. I have recorded every instance that I’ve noticed, which doesn’t account for the times it has probably recaled while my wife was driving (she drives our HCHII about 30% of the time).

Battery Recalibrations

- 12Mar2012 --- 9am, about 65 degrees, AC off
- 22Mar2012 --- 6pm, 73 degrees, AC off
- 4Apr2012 --- 6:30pm, 72 degrees, AC off
- 12Apr2012 --- 6:30pm, 75 degrees, AC off
- 13Apr2012 --- 1pm, 78 degrees, AC on
- 14Apr2012 --- 2:30pm, 77 degrees, AC on
- 16Apr2012 --- 9am, 65 degrees, AC off

I averaged around 42 MpG with the old bad NiMH battery and around 48 with the new lithium battery, but this has been falling as the recals occur more often.

Now I’m concerned that I’m going to have to battle with Honda and the dealership all over again to get the new battery replaced, which obviously has problems. They will probably say something like no warning lights are on and your battery has 50% of charge capacity, so we won’t replace it. If that happens, my response will be IT’S A NEW BATTERY! It’s not even six months old and already showing advanced deterioration. I’m willing to fight hard to get this fixed. I dropped the car off at the dealership this morning so that they could examine it and perform another diagnostic. We’ll see what they say.

Second side note: The class action lawsuit extended the warranty by 12K miles, so happily just a few weeks ago I received my $680 back. But unhappily, my car is now at 95K miles and I was told by a Honda customer service rep over the phone that because I am now out of the new 92K mile warranty that the battery is no longer covered. So even though the battery isn’t yet six months old and only has 7K miles under its belt it is out of warranty and I am potentially liable for any repair costs.

 

Are you certain you have a Lithium Pack? I have read that the lithium packs are not compatible with the old IMA system. You probably have a NiMH pack! H