Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

Hello all,
I have an interesting problem that just got better today. Background: I live in Laramie WY 7220ft and cold 9 months out of the year! My Ford Escape Hybrid '08 is a great snow car but due to the cold doesn't get nearly the fuel mileage our southern friends get (maybe 24mpg in the winter if lucky).

Problems this winter:

1. Transmission groans/grinds/ slips / wont really go forward or reverse without stepping on throttle in extreme cold maybe 0 degrees F and lower. Really noticable when under -15 F . Eventually after 10 to 20 mins of driving it returns to normal. Any idea if I am tearing something up?

2. Today while driving on a -25 F morning I get on a highway and attempt to go 65 mph. Well, when the rpms hit around 3800 the engine shuts down. This went on for 25 miles! Of course had I been on the Interstate that would have been dangerous only going 65 mph here!
When the car finally warmed up (40 miles later at the ski area) it was running fine and tranny was quiet. Oh, and no check engine light or anywarning chimes/signs.

Before anyone says I should 'use a block heater' I do, however I believe it isn't working now for whatever reason.

My guess is there is a rev limiter in the program for cold motor/tranny fluids? I had heat in the cabin btw.

Having been a mechanic a decade ago I feel like I am tearing stuff up!

Anyone else having issues like this?

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

Hi prstone50,

I have the same issue with my 08 FEH here in Calgary, AB. We had a cold snap a few weeks ago where it was -35c (-31f) in the morning and I experienced the same issues as you. Yes, I plugged in the block heater overnight and although it warmed up the engine to the point where it would start easier, the transmission felt like it was slipping.

My fuel economy has taken a huge hit as well. In the summer I get about 7ltrs/100km (not sure what that works out to in MPG) however now, i'm averaging about 13ltrs/100km which in my mind, blows any fuel savings out of the water from the summer.

I've found that if I start my FEH up in the morning, let it idle for about 10 mins to warm up that its fine once I leave. The vehicle sure as hell doesnt go into EV at that temp though which completely defeats the purpose of a hybrid vehicle.

Overall i'm very happy with my 08 however looking back, I probably wouldn't buy another hybrid unless I lived somewhere warmer where the winters weren't 8-9 months of the year.

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

Of course, the most beneficial way to secure your car during these several month is to opt for regular maintaining you car. A effectively working coolant program will keep your car from overheating. But, it also is accountable for defending it against engine corrosion.

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

What was the purpose of this post?:confused: It has no connection to this thread and should be deleted.

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

have an interesting problem that just got better today. Background: I live in Laramie WY 7220ft and cold 9 months out of the year! My Ford Escape Hybrid '08 is a great snow car but due to the cold doesn't get nearly the fuel mileage our southern friends get (maybe 24mpg in the winter if lucky).

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

The main benefit of a hybrid system is regenerating energy during braking. You reuse that energy later when the car needs it. Driving in ev mode doesn't "save" any energy. Any energy in the battery pack that allows ev mode driving, has gotten there by burning gas and running the gas engine one way or another. In fact, if you force the ev mode more than the car tends to do on its own, you lose efficiency due to conversion losses: excessive conversion of energy into electricity stored in the battery pack and then taken back out for propulsion.

In addition to the energy regeneration, an Escape hybrid also benefits from the CVT, engine shut-down, a relatively small gas engine and the LRR tires. I suspect at such temperatures those with non-hybrids are suffering just as badly.

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

The main benefit of a hybrid system is the hybrid SYSTEM. Regenerative braking is a small percentage of the "system" of saving gas. Think about it. How many miles a year is your foot on the brake pedal and how many miles a year is your foot NOT on the brake pedal?

Second, it's not the number of miles in EV mode, it's the number of MINUTES a year you are in EV modd that really saves a lot of gas. In warm weather there is almost zero idle time. In the cold there is a lot of idle time. Idle time = 0 MPG and very quickly lowers your average fuel economy per tank.

Third, there are NOT huge losses in converting energy from gas to electricty. Every large modern train locomotive burns diesel to turn a generator. The generated electricity turns an electric motor. The electric motor(s) turn the wheels on the locomotive. Every train locomotive is a hybrid. And has been since 1950's. There are greater losses when an internal combustion engine is connected to the wheels of a vehicle. Why? Because vehicles need to start and stop, and travel at speeds that constantly varry. Engines are most efficient only at certain speeds. Engines have very little torque at slow speeds when you need it most.
Electric motors have the most torque at slow speeds.

BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POST

The transmission IS NOT SLIPPING IN COLD WEATHER. It can't do that. Not possible.
Your senses are being fooled by your past driving experience. This is like no other car!
What is happening is at very cold temperatuers is you are not getting any battery assist.
You are driving with a part of your hybrid "system" not working.
It is working properly, just not what you are used to. No damage is occuring.
Any battery is a chemical process. Chemical reactions are inhibited at cold temperatures.

In warm weather that battery adds about 40 horsepower to your system.
More importantly, it adds about 400 pound-feet of torque to the system to launch you from a dead stop. Now freeze the battery, and you loose that "help" to the small, low torque, high effieciency Atkinson engine, that now has to do all the work.

It "feels like" the transmission is slipping based on your past experience. The engine revs and the car doesn't move much because A) it is trying to generate the power the battery can't provide at cold temperatures [the why] and B) the engine revs and the car doesn't speed away because of the planetary gear transmission [the how] is sending engine power to the generator to make electricity, not turn the wheels. The generated electricity (not stored battery electricty) then gently drives the wheels.

What you feel is odd, but totally normal, and by design.

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

Perhaps you could tell me how the hybrid battery gets charged, other than by regeneration? It's by using some of the output of the gas engine to generate electricity. This is not a Rube Goldberg device; it puts load on the gas engine and so it burns additional gas.

The difference in mileage for a hybrid vs a non-hybrid in stop-and-go traffic is exactly because of the recovery of the energy normally wasted during the stops. Same for going up and down steep hills.

Today I drove up a road that rose 2000' total vertical. At the top it flattened out, and the FEH immediately went into ev mode. That's kind of dumb because it means it was putting extra load on the gas engine to generate electricity to charge up the traction battery even though there was already plenty of load required to climb the hill. Probably the SOC was at 53% at the top. And when I started back down, I needed all the battery capacity available for engine braking. But at 53%, it was 13% above the minimum 40% and so it went to the maximum, 60% sooner than it would have from 40%. So I got half the engine braking I could have used and had to resort to using the friction brakes to keep the speed under control.

After sitting at the top for a couple of hours at 32F, I started down. The FEH would not go into ev mode during any of the three brief flat sections (tight 25mph corners) on the way down. The traction battery was charged to the maximum limit because the grade for the 2000' vertical descent requires prolonged engine braking. Despite the battery being at full charge, it would not go into ev mode because the gas engine was not working hard enough to keep itself and the catalytic converter warm. On a summer day on this same descent, it will go into ev mode on those corners. In turn, this depletes the traction battery and so makes more capacity available for more engine braking when the grade resumes. So warm weather also reduces wear on the brakes.

Again, ev mode does not happen by magic and the traction battery does not get charged by magic. Any charge in the traction battery is there because of burning gas. That can be done by using part or all of the output of the gas engine to act as a generator, by regenerative braking, or regenerative engine braking. Any charge gained by the traction battery by braking from faster speed or engine braking down a hill, got there because the gas engine was run to reach the speed or climb the hill.

The more minutes you are in ev mode OR the more distance you do in ev mode, the more the gas engine has to be run to create the electrical charge to power that ev mode.

It doesn't make sense to equip cars with both gas and electric motors UNLESS there is a regeneration system. And that requires a battery or capacitor or some means to store energy. Otherwise cars would have had both long ago, and, unlike a locomotive, you never see a car with both that does not have a regeneration system. Even the KERS system on most Formula 1 cars, that makes them hybrids, uses a battery.

Even in warm weather, there is several minutes of idle time following a "cold" start. Even if it's warm enough that there's no need to heat the traction battery, the gas engine and catalytic converter need to be heated to operating temperature. In cold weather the engine needs to run a lot, when in cold weather it would not, to keep these things warm. That's in addition to keeping the traction battery warm.

I didn't say or imply that the losses were "huge". It's basic physics that converting energy from one form to another involves losses. So unnecessarily "forcing" the hybrid system into ev mode more that it would do so just on it's own, will be less efficient than just using the gas engine directly for propulsion. Even the FEH's owner manual says that you probably will get worse mileage if you cause the ev mode to operate more than it would by itself.

But, and this is a big but, diesel locomotives have no provision for regeneration. They have no storage battery. If they did, it would have to be massive to be of any value. Instead, they have large banks of resistors to dissipate braking forces, from the wheels to the generator, as heat.

The performance characteristics of trains are well suited to electric motors and are extremely different from the operating characteristics of cars. That's why trains in Europe are run straight with electricity and don't bother with the inefficiency of diesel motors on the locomotives.

Which is why non-hybrid road vehicles have transmissions. And clutches. Yes, gas engines have sweet spots. That's why more and more cars have more gears or cvt's. But the efficiency of the engines with multiple fixed gear transmissions outside the sweet spots are not compromised a huge amount. That's why non-hybrids get highway mileage competitive with hybrids. Where the mileage difference is large, which is in urban driving, is because of the hybrid's regeneration system.

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

xspirt,

Several items I take issue with...

1) Coasting will also charge your traction battery just like regenerative braking will. This is an often missed point.

2) The engine needs to get up to temperature after a cold start (and even a few minutes for warm start) to get the engine and converters up to the correct temperature. The engine might as well be charging the battery during that time as it will have MORE than enough capacity to move the car.

3) The electric motors will supplement the gas engine as required to increase the operating efficiency while moving.

4) Non hybrids of the same size and power range will still be an order of magnitude less efficient on the highway due to most hybrids using an Atkinson cycle engine and supplemental power from the electric engines.

5) While using the gas engine only, the increased fuel burn to additionally charge the battery is minimal as the ECU will look at the engine load and adjust it accordingly.

Modern hybrids are not simple, not easy to decipher and will be a constant source of arguments until long after we are gone.....

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

Yes, but any speed that can be retarded by generating electricity while coasting, was attained in the first place, directly or indirectly, by running the gas engine. This is not true of a plug-in hybrid, of course. Generating current while coasting simply has to reduce speed, and regaining that speed either depletes the battery and/or uses gas to run the engine.

The FEH has two modes of coasting. On is in D, and you don't see the charge instrument needle move into the charge range. I think it moves a bit, but it's so little it's hard to tell. It would be a violation of the laws of physics for this to happen without reducing the vehicle's speed.

The other coasting mode is in L. You can feel the vehicle slowing down and the charge indicator will obviously be in the charge range. The loss of speed in either mode can only be recovered by burning more gas, or by depleting the battery (which can only be replaced by burning more gas).

I'm lucky to live at the top of a slight hill, so I try to arrive at home in ev mode. This depletes the traction battery, so that when the gas engine is idling after the next cold startup, it is also recharging the battery to the neutral or midpoint of capacity. What you describe is also why FEH drivers are advised to not let the car sit and warm up, to drive off as soon as the engine starts. I release the parking brake and put on my seatbelt before starting it.

I've noticed that while the car warms up, it idles at a constant speed and the charge needle stays in the neutral spot. So the propulsion must be coming from the engine generating electrical power. When I brake during this phase, the charge needle shows no regeneration. This must be because the gas engine must be run to warm things up. Soon, the engine speed will vary, and soon after that braking will result in charge being generated. And after that, engine shutdown can happen and ev mode is available.

Here I have to disagree. The electric propulsion motor can increase the power available to propel the vehicle, but does not make it more efficient. Any power provided by the electric motor came from the battery, and ultimately that energy got to the battery by burning gas in the gas engine. The hybrid system does not create energy anywhere by itself. Any energy used by the FEH comes from the gas burned by it.

The charge gauge will indeed show boost coming from the electric system while speeding up or climbing a hill. And that helps efficiency. But that boost is available only because something charged the hybrid battery at some point. And that charging required burning gas, either to gain speed or to climb a hill, or to overcome engine load added for "background" charging of the battery.

But an equivalent non-hybrid could have exactly the same engine running the Atkinson cycle, and could even have the same or equivalent eCVT. Highway driving is where the hybrid system has the least effect, and it certainly does not create or contribute energy from thin air. As I said above, any contribution by the traction battery via the electric propulsion motor originally, one way or another, came from burning gas. And it's more efficient to burn gas to power the gas engine to power the wheels, than it is to burn gas to power the engine to turn a generator to charge a battery and then use the battery to turn an electric motor to turn the wheels. And note that diesel locomotives don't work either of these ways.

WHATEVER amount of energy is used to charge the battery or is provided by the battery, originally comes from burning gas in the gas engine. The hybrid system and/or the ECU have no ability to create energy, large or small amounts, by itself.

While the minute detail of how systems such as the FEH's hybrid system works certainly is complex, the basic principles are quite simple and have been understood for a long time. The disagreements seem to come from the idea that many have that the propulsion provided by the hybrid system in ev or combined mode comes out of nowhere. They somehow have this impression that ev mode comes for free. I don't know why people see it that way and why they can't see that any propulsion expressed by a hybrid vehicle entirely originally came from burning gas.

I want to add that ev mode in the FEH is more like a "party trick" than something earthshaking. It's not that useful since it's not very powerful, and any propulsion provided came, one way or another, from burning gas. What makes hybrids more efficient than non-hybrids is their ability to capture and re-use the energy normally lost while braking.

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

Please re-read the last line in my post.....

You know what they say about opinions.....

I do understand kinetic and dynamic energy levels, propulsion systems, energy use under load and energy recovery. A car that is at a high altitude has stored kinetic energy that has ALREADY been expended to get there. It makes no difference if you use a hybrid electric motor/gas engine, diesel engine, gas engine or a team of wild donkeys to get it there. All a hybrid will do is recover that kinetic energy into a usable form instead of dissipating it as heat lost during braking. I'm not sure about your Ford but the Toyota's I'm familiar with will recharge the traction battery while the engine is warming up and the car is moving forward.

A non hybrid running an Atkinson cycle engine is NOT comparable to a hybrid as the engine will be underpowered during maximum acceleration unless it is either supercharged or has forced induction by a turbo. Either of those solutions will increase fuel consumption.

As far as the electric motors making the car more efficient at interstate speeds, going uphill, the electric motors will supplement the gas engine and cause LESS fuel to be burned and that extra kinetic energy is then recovered on the downhill side resulting in a net gain over a non hybrid car.

The hybrids we drive are not "party tricks", just well engineered vehicles that extend the distance traveled by using basic engineering principles to maximize energy use.

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

Georgia- Love your statement: "Modern hybrids are not simple, not easy to decipher and will be a constant source of arguments until long after we are gone....." I agree. They are NOT simple machines at all. The idea is old. It took modern computer power under the hood to make it all work reliably.

Gpsman1: 3525+ posts and has been explaining, experimenting, and deciphering the FEH since 2005.

xspirit: 47 posts and has obviously not read many posts because he already thinks he knows it all. (maybe should take a bite of humble pie?)

About the only fair truth (from xspirit's unique ability to state the obvious) is every mile traveled in a FEH comes from gasoline or a gasoline/alcohol mixture.
No sh1t Sherlock.

While I only stated generally speaking before, now I will get specific. I know you want specifics.

A same size & weight Escape gets an average of 24 MPG on a CITY test course. The Hybrid Escape gets 36 MPG on the same course.

That's 12mpg more. Why?

It is NOT from regenerative brakes alone.
And let's clear up that tapping the brake pedal, coasting in D, and coasting in L, with or without the gas engine turning is the exact same form of regenerative braking. And to be crystal clear, you don't get ANY "regeneration" from the gas engine, only generation.

From materials published by FORD at the time of vehicle launch in 2004-2005:

41% of that 12 MPG gain is from regenerative braking. Not all. Not most. Some. 41% to be EXACT.

23% of that 12 MPG gain is from the Atkinsen engine.

16% of the 12 MPG gain is from engine off time at stops.

8% of the 12 MPG is from the eCVT.

5% of the 12 MPG is from specially designed LRR tires.
( while possible to put on any car, they are not due to added cost.)

The balance 7% comes from a total of many small factors, including the electric motors ability to act as a load leveler, allowing the gas engine to stay in the most advantagous "sweet spot" more of the time, and so on.

Please note that while the above figures are for the published, official, city test drive cycle, the following is true on the highway:
You hardly ever tap the brakes, so regeneration is reduced to times of coasting or significant downgdade.
You STILL HAVE the benefits of the Atkinsen engine.
You STILL HAVE the benefits of the eCVT.
You STILL HAVE the benefits of the special LRR tires.
You STILL HAVE the benefits of the motors load leveling and engine governing.

This hybrid SYSTEM is giving us all lots of gasoline savings without a single watt-hour of regeneration.

In fact, while not technically feasible in the Ford Hybrids for a number of reasons, one being there is no 12 volt starter, it IS POSSIBLE to drive a HONDA hybrid without a functioning HV battery. I have a 2000 Honda Insight with the orginal battery pack. At 14 years old my pack is all but dead..... (for you Honda owners, I'm at about 150,000 miles, Have had the IMA light and "battery end of useful life" code for over 3 years now, and I still drive it almost every day, and have about 30,000 miles since my IMA light came on.) I still get 63 - 65 miles per gallon in that hybrid car without a fuctional hybrid battery. All possible because Honda included a 12v starter. The MPG did not change much at all without having the ability for regen, but PERFORMACE is reduced. Much less pep... slower acceleration without battery boost.

The fact is, a gasoline otto cycle (typical) is only 20% efficient. 80% of all gasoline btu's, calories, whatever energy unit you like, goes into heat that is dissapated into the environment. 20% is pushing you down the road. But when you are STANDING STILL 100% of the gasoline is going into waste heat (or a trivial amount charging your 12v underhood battery.) Burning gas is converting chemical energy into heat energy at 80% and into mechanical energy at 20%. (diesels a little better)

For comparison, an electical motor converts chemical energy (battery ions) to mechanical energy at greater than 90% and less than 10% goes into waste heat. And when you are standing still there is zero wasted energy!

Having the gas engine off for as many MINUTES as possible should be everyone's goal, not miles "propelled" by battery power in EV mode.
This can only be done at the lower speeds in Fords, but at higher speed in some cars.
It is HUGELY advantagous to run the car from the battery as much as possible.
I choose my words deliberatly. I mean RUN all the sub systems of the car, power steering, power brakes, water pump, even the climate control from the HV battery pack only, gas engine off, in EV mode whenever possible..... you are saving gas every minute you do so without breaking any laws of physics by not dumping all that waste heat to the environment.

For what it is worth, I can repeatedly and consistently achive 53 to 54 MPG city in the FEH by "tricking" the stock system into EV mode as much as possible, and using many small energy saving techniques bundled together. It is not magic... Anyone can do it, and I know many who have. On a one hour, 24 mile drive I have the engine on for 14 minutes and off for 46 minutes. A complete round trip to the same parking stall, no elevation change, in real city driving, in the middle of the day. Ideal weather. So it is a fair, realistic trip. How's that for a nice party trick and 700 miles per stock fuel tank sometimes.

Hope you found that helpful.

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

A) No. A non hybrid could not (usefully) use the Atkinson cycle engine the FEH. There is not enough torque from the engine to launch the vehicle from a dead stop. Hence the integrated 94 HP electric traction motor that gets your Hybrid Escape rolling from zero to about 10 mph each and every time. Engine on or not.

B) Oh how much you have to learn. :angel: While any car can have a form of CVT which means "continuously variable transmission", only a parallel hybrid, (Ford, Toyota) can have an eCVT. See that little "e" there? That makes this case special. That "e" means electric(motor) continuously variable transmission. Only hybrid cars with electric motors can have one of these puppies, which are different animals.

Now I may confuse you, but every FEH has a fixed gear ratio between the engine and the generator and the traction motor and the wheels. Sounds contradictory to the above, but its not.
If you can explain what I mean by that, you'll get much street cred.

C) I'll let you talk to the Chevy Volt people about your fear of "burning gas to generate electricity to power a motor to turn the wheels" not being efficient- Since it does that full time.

D) Any time you drive your FEH in reverse it drives EXACTLY the way a locomotive does. What? disagree? Try draining your HV battery to the minimum so its removed from the picture. Hint: Betcha still can drive in reverse! ;)

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

Your description of "stored kinetic energy" is more properly called "potential energy". Other than that, your description of it is the same as mine rather than being a contradiction.

Yes, the Escape recharges the traction battery while warming up as long as the battery is not mopre than "half" capacity. When it is moving forward and there is no demand for electric assist, and the battery is below half charge, the gas engine will be used to raise the charge to half charge. There is no way this charging does not require burning additional gas, if that's what you are implying. The gas needed is not fairly characterized as "minimal" or otherwise. It's whatever it takes. If the boost provided by the system is significant, then so is the gas needed to create that boost.

No, you can also increase trip time by having a lower average speed. And you and gpsman1 should agree on whether a non-hybrid can use the Atkinson cycle.

Here is what you said the first time: "The electric motors will supplement the gas engine as required to increase the operating efficiency while moving. I think your meaning would be more clear if you referred to the electric boost being the prime contributor to this efficiency. Without it, the electric motors can't contribute anything.

You've twisted my words. I didn't say hybrid cars are "party tricks". I said the ev mode has similarities to a "party trick". The ev mode in the Prius, Escape Hybrid etc. is of relatively trivial utility compared to what a Tesla does. Not that it isn't beneficial, and not that it can't impress people when you demonstrate it, but we all know how limited it is. You would be aware that newer hybrids have more capable ev modes.

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

And what I said sounds remarkably similar: "While the minute detail of how systems such as the FEH's hybrid system works certainly is complex, the basic principles are quite simple and have been understood for a long time. I am quite aware of the complexity of computerized control systems and modern electronics.

Surely you are aware there are very prolific posters on some forums who post garbage, and the inverse is true also.

No more insults or personal attacks please. It is not becoming and does not enhance your obvious depth of knowledge of these subjects.

It's true that rather than use L to slow down, I could be using the brakes and the same thing would be happening. I never suggested otherwise. I suppose using the brake pedal would waste a bit of energy to light the brake lights while using L when coming to a stop delays engine shut-down.

Whether you want to call it regeneration or generation seems like a moot point. We both know we're talking about the same thing.

The 47% number for regenerative braking will depend on specific parameters of the test. You could do a test with only one instance of braking, for instance. Therefore your use of the word "EXACT" to describe the percentage is improper, and therefore also all the percentages depend on the particular test regime.

So the gain from regenerative braking is the largest source of the hybrid's efficiency in city driving, and the only one of these features that a non-hybrid could not have (assuming a general equality of a hybrid having an eCVT and a non-hybrid having a CVT).

You don't live where I do, where highway driving involves sharp corners and huge elevation gains. A return trip betweeen Vancouver and Whistler includes hundreds of corners and a net elevation gain of 11,000 feet.

Our problem is that you're including more things as part of the hybrid system than I do. I include only those things covered by Ford's 8-year warranty on the hybrid system. Anything that a non-hybrid could have, such as LRR tires, should not be considered part of the hybrid package for the purpose of this discussion.

In response to people worried about hybrid batteries having to be replaced, part of my comments have been that they are outlasting the cars. (Maybe not for your Insight, but almost no batteries are being replaced in Prius' and Escape Hybrids. You would know how much mileage is being put on these cars used as taxis.) My other response has been that the hybrid cars don't suffer greatly by degraded capacity of the hybrid battery.

In fact, elsewhere in this forum I recently posted:

"Even if the traction battery loses capacity, it helps to estimate the effect. Even with no traction battery capacity, you still have the benefits of the CVT, smaller than normal gas engine, LRR tires, airflow tweaks, engine shut-down and Atkinson cycle gas engine. So the hybrid electric system is only part of the gas-saving aspects of the vehicle. I have no idea what proportion of the gas savings is due to the regeneration system, but an estimate might be 65%. So if your battery loses 15% capacity, that should mean a loss of 15% of 65%, which would be a 10% difference in the mileage benefits provided by all the car's features. Note that this is not a 10% mileage loss, just 10% of whatever the FEH achieves over a non-hybrid. Which would amount to very little."

So you can see that we're on the same page on this stuff. You can also see that my uninformed estimate for the contribution of the regeneration system, 65%, was high compared to the 47% you've quoted, but in the same ballpark, not bad for a guess, and would depend on the driving cirucumstances.

Not all of the gas engine's energy is wasted when idling at a standstill. When idling at a standstill the gas engine is also warming itself, the cabin, catalytic converter and traction battery as needed. And recharging the traction battery if it's below a certain charge level.

Other than that, I agree with you, and agree that the distinction between having the gas engine off and being propelled by battery power in ev mode are two different things. You can coast or sit at a stop with the engine off but not be using ev propulsion.

Thank you for clarifying the intent of your previous statement: "it's not the number of miles in EV mode, it's the number of MINUTES a year you are in EV modd that really saves a lot of gas."

How you drive may be utterly impractical for many or most hybrid owners. Where I live, using ev mode more than minimally is going to severely piss off a lot of other drivers, and flat roads are rare. If we want more people to buy into this technology, there's no sense making hybrids and their owners look like turkeys by impeding traffic.

We agree it's good to keep the gas engine operation time to a minimum. Where we disagree boils down to determining if beyond a certain point, those gains are offset by conversion losses caused by overly forcing ev mode. You may be correct, but it may be a matter of the test conditions. I kow that conversion losses are not fiction, and that the owner manual for my FEH warns that excessive forcing of ev mode can reduce mileage.

Why don't you do an experiment: do all the same things except tricking the car into ev mode for the same drive, and see what effect this has on mileage.

Are you saying that if an FEH had a "dead" traction battery it could not move from a standstill? Your claim that the Atkinson cycle engine cannot be used without a hybrid system is utterly wrong. The Atkinson cycle causes the engine to produce less power but runs more efficiently. It has nothing to do with starting torque except that it may be reduced. Atkinson cycle engines are more suitable in hybrids than non-hybrids because of the efficiency gain can be utilized while the electric motor can provide the missing power when needed. But there's nothing to prevent using an Atkinson cycle engine in any car.

"eCVT" is more a marketing term than the proper name for a planetary gearset or power sharing transmission.

But let's say the comparable car uses a CVT instead of an eCVT. That does not alter the substance of my point. It may not make sense to use an eCVT or electronically controlled planetary gearset in a non-hybrid, but I don't know that it's impossible. Some multiple-speed bicycles use planetary gearsets, after all.

I'll admit to not fully understanding how the power sharing transmission, or planetary gearset, works in the Prius and Escape Hybrid.

Your quote attributed to me contains a significant error. I said: "to burn gas to power the engine to turn a generator to charge a battery and then use the battery to turn an electric motor to turn the wheels."

Your incorrect version says: "burning gas to generate electricity to power a motor to turn the wheels"

See the difference? The scenario I listed includes more conversion steps and so would suffer more conversion losses. The FEH's ev mode works as I described, not as you mistakenly attributed to me.

But since you raise the Volt, let's take a look at it.

First, it uses premium gas while the FEH uses regular.

Consider this from Wikipedia about the Volt: "Under the gasoline-only scenario (never charge), the 37 mpg-US (6.4 L/100 km; 44 mpg-imp) figure results from 35 mpg-US (6.7 L/100 km; 42 mpg-imp) city driving and 40 mpg-US (5.9 L/100 km; 48 mpg-imp) on the highway."

I'm not the first to point out that the Volt does not have very impressive gas-only mileage, and some have speculated that it is because of conversion losses. These are not stellar numbers for a car that has various other mileage tweaks, so the numbers do not back up your position that the Volt's system is efficient in gas-only operation and do not support a claim that gas->generation->battery->propulsion is more efficient than gas->propulsion. Once again, there have to be conversion losses.

You're correct that the FEH does work like a locomotive in reverse. The snark is not needed. I'd venture that the FEH works the same way for a while immediately after a cold start. I certainly don't drive in reverse enough to affect my mileage. Does this mean you are agreeing that the FEH does not work like a locomotive the vast majority of the time?

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather
 

OK, I don't have time to write novels and tried to keep my explanation simple to allow more readers to follow but it's apparent you are arguing just to see your words in print. No matter how high you pile it, it's the same material...

I'm done and moving on as it's obvious that you don't want to learn, don't understand how they work, just want to be argumentative and I'm tired of your BS. At he very least, try to read up and understand how MG1 and MG2 make up the star and ring gear on your hybrid and the motor is on a planetary gear set between the two.

Re: Ford Hybrids and cold weather