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Jaime 01-02-2019 09:56 PM

Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
2 Attachment(s)
I swapped 40 low-mileage modules into our 2008 Tahoe battery pack and now my brother says it drives like a completely different car. I bought Two 2016 Prius C battery packs with 20 modules each. They were removed from salvaged cars with 16K and 20K miles from Sacramento and San Diego, CA.

Here are some of the problems experienced with the original battery pack:
  • Sluggish acceleration from a stop
  • Had to be light on the gas pedal from a stop to prevent the Internal Combustion Engine from stalling during the Auto-stop to ICE transition. Previously suspected the Aux Transmission Fluid Pump but it hasn't happened since putting in the “new” battery.
  • Unable to go very far in electric mode
  • Unable to go more than about 10-15mph in electric mode
Some of the codes that appeared with the original battery:
  • P0AC4 - Powertrain Control Module Requested MIL Illumination
  • P0BBD - Battery Pack Variation High
  • P0C32 - Battery Cooling System Performance
The original battery pack has a build date of November 8, 2007 (based on the serial number) making it more than 11 years old. The original modules inside had a build date of October 31, 2007. They were taken out at 165,000 miles.
Here are the results of the tests I did on the original modules:
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...9b4cd704b7.png

The first discharge column is the capacity that was discharged from each module to 6V at 6 amps just as the modules came out of the Tahoe. Note that due to using 18AWG 3 foot leads, there was about a 0.3V drop so when the charger was reading 6V, the modules were actually at 6.3V. This results in slightly lower capacity numbers, but in the grand scheme of things, it does not make much of a difference. Thirty-nine of the modules are total junk, with only one module at half the original capacity of 6500 mAh.
The second discharge column is the actual capacity of the module after doing a full charge. This is the number I attempted to improve with reconditioning of some of the modules (as seen in the column on the right). The 3 modules with the highest capacity actually gave me lower overall discharge capacity after doing the reconditioning. The lower capacity modules I did reconditioning on did improve slightly, but they are still junk.

Here are all the capacities in a chart:
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...fbe97ffdad.png
The best modules are the ones closest to the fresh air intake. Heat = Bad.

Here is the chart of the internal resistances. I'm not too sure I would trust the accuracy of the internal resistance measurements taken by the Reaktor charger.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...f23806363e.png

Here's a chart of the module voltages after they were taken out of the Tahoe (minus one I forgot to measure before beginning the discharge process):https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...d54a7c3a58.png

I found it interesting that the modules with the highest and lowest voltages were all junk. The highest capacity modules close to Module #1 all had voltages in the mid-range. Not quite sure how to interpret this, or if it has any significance. Take a look at my post from last year. You can see Blocks 1 and 2 were the two blocks where voltage didn't swing as much under discharge/charge. This is due to them having the highest capacity modules.

I'd like to thank S. Keith for the guidance he provided during the compilation of this data and the installation of the "new" modules into the Tahoe battery pack.

S Keith 01-03-2019 06:18 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
Nicely done!

Hands down the worst battery I've ever seen built with Toyota prismatic modules. I've often stated that GM does a poor job of battery management, and the above data support my claim.

The capacity error associated with a cut off at 6.3 is pretty small. On modules with far more usable capacity, it's around 300mAh at 20A. It should be notably less on these modules due to their absurdly low capacity. You can always confirm by discharging a module to 5.7V from full.

You are correct. The IR values are untrustworthy.due to your test leads. For a module with healthy resistance with short 12awg leads with ring terminals and a solid bullet connection (they rarely are), it's about 15mΩ.

Lower capacity modules are more likely to be at an extreme particularly when their state of charge is masked by the other module in the block. It's not uncommon for this to occur in batteries that are horribly deteriorated and/or out of balance.

Heat is the biggest killer of all Gen3 batteries. It seems everybody screwed up the cooling system as they made the packs more compact and left the temperature management the same as the Gen2.

I would encourage you to repeat the data gathering process in-car, so we can get an idea of what a known good battery looks like.

Hillbilly Hybrid should devise a means of controlling the battery fan... :)

SonomaGTLS6 01-03-2019 09:18 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
This is great data. Did you have any issues getting a balanced voltage across all of the new battery packs, especially coming from two separate Prius packs? Did you charge them up individually to the same voltage before installing into the Tahoe battery pack? Any diagnostics trip as soon as you rebuilt the pack? Inevitably rebuilding our powerpacks like this will become the way of the shadetree mechanic as our vehicles age (or at least for me ;)).

As for controlling the fan, if we could get HPTuners to support PCM or Hybrid controller programming I'm sure the thresholds could be manipulated just like the A/C and e-fans. Someone started a thread on their forum asking for support but it doesn't seem to have gone anywhere (https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...brid-support&p). Maybe just go oldschool with a thermostat controlled relay or PWM circuit that's independent of the current fan's control. I am reluctant to try anything at this point as my vehicle is still under warranty.

S Keith 01-03-2019 09:49 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 

Originally Posted by SonomaGTLS6 (Post 267054)
This is great data. Did you have any issues getting a balanced voltage across all of the new battery packs, especially coming from two separate Prius packs? Did you charge them up individually to the same voltage before installing into the Tahoe battery pack? Any diagnostics trip as soon as you rebuilt the pack? Inevitably rebuilding our powerpacks like this will become the way of the shadetree mechanic as our vehicles age (or at least for me ;)).



As for controlling the fan, if we could get HPTuners to support PCM or Hybrid controller programming I'm sure the thresholds could be manipulated just like the A/C and e-fans. Someone started a thread on their forum asking for support but it doesn't seem to have gone anywhere (https://forum.hptuners.com/showthread.php?58429-2008-Chevrolet-Tahoe-Hybrid-support&p). Maybe just go oldschool with a thermostat controlled relay or PWM circuit that's independent of the current fan's control. I am reluctant to try anything at this point as my vehicle is still under warranty.


I'm going to jump in here since I have a lot more experience doing what Jaime did, and I provided him some guidance in this area.

Before I get into the details, the bottom line is that a low mileage pack as-removed from a vehicle is frequently always in the 50-60% SoC range and can be installed without concern. What most don't know is that a HEALTHY battery actually has a tendency to self-balance within about a 5% range.

"balanced voltage" is meaningless, and too many people fall into this trap. I feel rage and pity when I see someone paralleling a bunch of modules together...

The only thing that matters is "Balanced State of Charge (SoC)."

Here's a test I personally conducted:
2 modules of 6000mAh capacity
Both discharged to 6.0V @ 20A.
ONE charged to 4000mAh input @ 20A.
Modules attached in parallel with buss bars at both ends for 24 hours.
after 24 hours:
Charged module, "A", had about 2600mAh in it.
Emptied module, "B", had about 1000mAh in it.

A is at 2600/6000 = 43% SoC (started at 4000/6000 = 67% SoC)
B is at 1000/6000 = 17% SoC (started at 0/6000 = 0% SoC)

When disconnected, they sat for an hour before testing, and their voltages were within 0.01V of each other.

However, when subjected to a load, their voltages were dramatically different and well outside what is desirable, and one had less than 1/2 the amount of charge as the other.

Voltage stabilizes almost immediately due to NiMH voltage funkiness. Current flows according to the voltage difference and the resistance. These batteries have very low resistance, so even a small voltage difference will flow a decent current, e.g., 0.05V difference would flow about 4.2A... problem is the voltage difference narrows to almost nothing. Over the 24 hours, 1000mAh was transferred at an average current of 42mA, which yields an average voltage difference of 0.0005V. What really happens is a lot of capacity transfer very early on and then nothing but a trickle thereafter.

A key thing to understand is that my example is extreme... a normally charged module paired with a completely empty one. Imagine how different it would be if they were only 650-1300mAh (10-20% SoC) difference. There would be almost no capacity transfer.

Additionally, a module that has been sitting for 6 months with a resting voltage of 7.55-7.60V MAY have more retained charge than a module that was partially charged (to about 60% SoC) 7 days ago with a resting voltage of 7.75-7.85V.

NiMH resting voltage exists only to confound you. It is minimally useful.

Now... WTF is the answer to your question?

If you procure two comparably aged packs (within 10K miles of each other, and they've both been sitting for a period within about 3 months of each other), if all modules WITHIN A PACK are within a 0.03V range (will likely be 0.01V or 0V) AND if total variation between packs is less than 0.10V, just build the dang thing.

SonomaGTLS6 01-03-2019 11:31 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
Good explanation S Keith, thank you. Helps me understand the fundamentals a bit more.

Doing a little more reading on the Prius Gen 2 vs Gen 3 individual packs, I see a main difference is the internal resistance of the Gen 3 pack is lower. Would you expect this to render any performance advantages in the Tahoe application?

To the OP - Jaime - can you share any comments on the improvement in distance traveled in autostop mode? How is the acceleration to 25-30 MPH?

S Keith 01-03-2019 11:54 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 

Originally Posted by SonomaGTLS6 (Post 267058)
Good explanation S Keith, thank you. Helps me understand the fundamentals a bit more.

Doing a little more reading on the Prius Gen 2 vs Gen 3 individual packs, I see a main difference is the internal resistance of the Gen 3 pack is lower. Would you expect this to render any performance advantages in the Tahoe application?

To the OP - Jaime - can you share any comments on the improvement in distance traveled in autostop mode? How is the acceleration to 25-30 MPH?



I have personally measured the IR of thousands of modules... While only a few hundred have been Gen3, there is no data to support that the internal resistance is in any way meaningfully lower than Gen2. There was a massive difference betweeen Gen1 and Gen2, and there may indeed be some measurable difference using laboratory grade instruments, but I have personally seen 10+ year old Gen2 modules measure the same as brand new Gen3 modules.

From a battery builder's perspective, I would take a 2004 Gen2 pack with 200K on it OVER any 2010-2014 Gen3 pack with 100K+ on it. Period. Hands down. Not even a question. I wouldn't even take the 2010-2014 for 1/2 the price.

Of principal concern is the age and mileage. Gen2 is getting old in the tooth given that they are 10-16 years old and high mileage. If you find a low mileage one, that's not good either as they've likely sat a lot, and you may find it won't hold a charge well.

Your best bet will be to find the lowest mileage packs ( < 60K ) FROM A MILD ENVIRONMENT (upper 1/3rd of the country IMHO) that your budget will accommodate.

EDIT: Concerning your request of Jaime, while it may be relevant to the perception of performance, efforts to extend EV operation only serve to damage the battery and shorten its life. It also frequently causes an reduction in overall fuel economy because the battery must be recharged using the gas engine. Simple conservative driving is the best approach. To give you perspective, the usable ENERGY in the hybrid battery is approximately the SAME as the total energy stored in the 12V battery under the hood. I don't think you'd expect much range or economy operating it solely off the 12V. :)

Jaime 01-03-2019 07:05 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 

Originally Posted by SonomaGTLS6 (Post 267058)
To the OP - Jaime - can you share any comments on the improvement in distance traveled in autostop mode? How is the acceleration to 25-30 MPH?

I didn't take any exact measurements when I did this with the new battery, but I'd estimate the distance to be about a quarter mile and at speeds over 20mph. The old battery would never have achieved those speeds and it would have turned on the gas engine after a few hundred feet. The acceleration is night and day. Previously we couldn't just step on the accelerator and go fast from a stop, since it would have stalled most of the time when the gas engine attempted to start. Had to slowly accelerate and give the engine time to start properly and then step on the gas more to accelerate.


Hillbilly_Hybrid 01-04-2019 12:09 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
"As for controlling the fan, if we could get HPTuners to support PCM or Hybrid controller programming" The service scan tool can control that fan.

My advice is re-wire it to full blast all the time.

S Keith 01-04-2019 12:15 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
I assume it's a 4 wire PWM controlled fan? +12V, ground, PWM and tach?

Could you ground the PWM and force full blast? That would be my approach on a Honda Civic Hybrid (1 and 2).

If that won't work, can you provide guidance?

SonomaGTLS6 01-04-2019 04:12 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
Would there be any concern with the battery not getting up to temp properly in winter?

S Keith 01-04-2019 04:31 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
No. It would probably help. As you warm the interior of the car, you would warm the battery faster. Personally, I would like to see a switch in the console... shouldn't be too hard. If I'm right about the method of control via shorting the PWM line, the current there is tiny, so small gauge wire would be fine.

Jaime 01-04-2019 10:58 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
Since I'm not sure if sharing the actual schematic image is allowed and I don't want this post to be deleted, I'll just share the knowledge I gained by looking at the service manual:

Battery Fan Connector (FC)
Pin # - Name - Wire Color
Pin 1 - "Not Used" - D-GN
Pin 2 - "B+" - PK/D-BU
Pin 3 - Ground - BK/YE
Pin 4 - PWM Input - D-GN/BK

BECM X2 Connector
Pin # - Name - Wire Color
Pin 2 - PWM output - D-GN/BK
Pin 3 - "Not Used" - D-GN
Pin 7 - Fan Relay Control - WH/GN

Signal Descriptions
  • The battery control module (BECM) grounds a relay to apply 12V to the fan on FC Pin 2.
    • This would need to done externally if we wanted to even command the fan to 100% all the time, not just when the BECM decides the battery pack needs to be cooled.
  • The BECM also sends a PWM signal to the fan on FC Pin 4.
    • This signal is pulled up to 5V inside the fan. The BECM grounds the line to generate a pulse width modulated signal to control the fan speed.
  • The ground wire on FC Pin 3 connects to the battery case somewhere.
  • The wire on FC Pin 1 that you would expect to be a fan speed output signal says "Not Used" both in the Fan and the BECM pins.
    • This "Not Used" may not be true because in the battery cooling system description it says "The battery vent fan motor also supplies an additional 5 volt signal that indicates vent fan speed back to the BECM, the lower the voltage the greater the fan speed."
    • The P0A81 trouble code will be set if the fan has been commanded to 35% or higher and the "Fan control signal monitor voltage to BECM is greater than 2.3 volts or less than 0.5 volt for 5 seconds."
    • The P0BC1 trouble code will be set if the "fan has transitioned from either ON to OFF or from OFF to ON" and the voltage is above 0.9V for 1 second.
Possible Control Method #1
In order to run the fans at 100% with the flick of a switch and not throw error codes, it would be necessary to come up with a circuit that disconnects the BECM PWM signal, the fan speed feedback signal, and possibly also the relay control line from the BECM.
  • The PWM signal input at the fan would have to be grounded to make it run at 100%. If the BECM monitors the PWM output, it would need to be pulled up to 5V with a resistor to make the BECM think the fan is still connected.
  • The speed signal input from the fan to the BECM would need to be simulated to make the BECM think the fan is running at the commanded speed. This may be the showstopper, unless we use a microcontroller (Arduino for example) to read the PWM signal duty cycle and feed back an appropriate fake fan speed voltage to the BECM so it will think the fan is running at the commanded speed.
    • If the fan ever had a real failure while our circuit is active, the BECM would never know. The microcontroller would also need to detect this and stop fooling the BECM when S&@t hits the fan. :D
  • The fan relay control signal may not need to be disconnected if the BECM does not monitor the voltage at the output. Simply connecting it to ground externally may be enough.

Possible Control Method #2
Coming someday. Need to think some more.

SonomaGTLS6 01-05-2019 08:06 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
Seems simple enough to run the fan if you can get around the diagnostics tripping. Why not just have an ignition line drive a low side FET to ground the PWM signal to turn the fan on at key on.

For the diagnostic workaround and since the depth of my microprocessor knowledge stops at PIC16’s and I’ve avoided Arduinos just because I don’t feel like learning something new, I’m thinking a simple solution of either using a PWM to voltage conversion circuit and an Voltage/analog to Frequency converter might work well enough. Would have to do some digging on setting up ranges of Fan RPM diagnostics compared to PWM input.

Or it literally could be a simple as taking a 3” computer fan that has a PWM input and tach output and tuning it so the fan spins at the expected RPM then tucking that up in the battery space somewhere to trick the computer while the squirrel cage fan runs on its own.

dnt1010 01-30-2019 06:41 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
Very informative and also very depressing thread for the GM Two Mode owners. After seeing this I have lost all interest in wasting time trying to save any modules in my 10 year old + 200k miles pack. Probably not much better than the results shown by jaime.in this thread. I never did like the game of wack-a-mole.
I am on the hunt for a great deal on a NEW battery for my HYHO. Got a line on one for well under dealership parts asking prices right now, just trying to verify that it has NEW modules before I complete the transaction.

S Keith 01-30-2019 06:47 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
Glad you finally made it.

dnt1010 02-06-2019 02:33 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
Jaime that is fascinating data. I have ordered a replacement hybrid battery for my 09 Tahoe (it should be in this week) . After I pull the old battery (201,000 miles) and get it on ,my work bench I would be willing to gather data from the old battery and post it on the forum. You seem to have developed a good data base there.
Hate to bother but can you please provide details of exactly what equipment you used and step by step of how you went about gathering your data and applying it to the spreadsheets?
My truck actually still drives pretty good with long EV mode and autostop functioning normally EXCEPT for one incident a few weeks back where it hesitated from takeoff and had a couple of codes.That incident happened right after I had utilized the rear power supply to run an air compressor and has not happened since. The consensus here and other forums seems to be that the GM battery management uses the modules up until they are useless to recondition. I do not expect to see many use-able modules but I figured if it was not a major PITA I would try to contribute back to a great and informative forum.
If I use the same equipment or equivalent and equivalent procedures as you did, then maybe the data will actually be useful to the forum and others. All these GM Two Modes are starting to show their age and the hybrid battery packs are a major expense item for owners, so interest is only going to increase over the next few years.

Jaime 02-09-2019 03:39 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
5 Attachment(s)
TESTING THE OLD MODULES

Equipment Used:
  • Turnigy Reaktor 30A 1000W Balance Charger (Hobbyking link)
    • There are many similar chargers in the marker with an almost identical user interface. The most important aspects are that it is capable of charging 6 series NiMh cells (7.2V) at 2 Amps and discharging at 6 Amps. Many chargers can charge at 2A or more. The tricky part is finding one that can discharge at more than 0.7A like most cheap ones do. This Reaktor charger and 1 or 2 other models lower can discharge at up to 80W which when divided by the battery voltage gives you the max discharge current capability. You can use any discharge current but the lower currents will give you a higher module capacity and wont be comparable to my testing.
  • Turnigy Reaktor 350W 23A Power Supply (Hobbyking link)
    • Any 12V or higher power supply with minimum 3A current will work (Up to the max input of whatever charger you use. 36V max for the 1000W reaktor)
  • Digital Multimeter (any decent 4-digit multimeter should work, Here's the one I used)
  • 3 ft Pomona B-36-02 Banana Plug Patch Cord ( )
    • Ideally you would want to use the shortest, thickest possible wires to charge your modules to ensure a minimum voltage drop and power dissipation in the wires, but this is all I had so I used it. If you want to be able to compare your results to mine, I would use the same or similar 18AWG 3ft wires.
Instead of connecting the charger clamps directly to the module studs, stack 2 bus bars and put them on each end of the module with the original nut tightened to 48 inch-pounds of torque. Then clamp the charger clamps on the bus bars. Connect the banana plug wires from the clamps to the banana jacks on the charger.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...f4eb8eed76.jpg

Take some time to navigate the menus and get used to the key-presses necessary to do things. If you press the wrong button while charging/discharging, you'll interrupt the process and have to start all over again.
The left most button is usually to Go back or cancel a selection. The two middle buttons are usually to increase/decrease values or change menu pages. The right-most button is usually to select or start testing by holding it down.

NiMH battery Menu
NiMH DISCHARGE, 6.0A 6.00V Here is what the NiMH DISCHARGE page will look like before starting a discharge. You can set the discharge rate (6.0A) and the final voltage (6.00V) by pressing the right-most button and using the 2 middle buttons to increase/decrease the value. Then press the right-most button again to go to the next value adjustment. Once ready to start, hold down the right-most button.
NiMH CHARGE Aut, 2.0A CUR LIMIT Be sure to use the Auto charge mode and not the manual mode which is next in the menu. You can set the charge rate (2.0A) by pressing the right-most button and using the 2 middle buttons to increase/decrease the value. Once ready to start, hold down the right-most button.




SPECIAL MODES Menu
The option to measure internal resistance is under the "Special Modes" menu. Hold down the right button to begin the measurement. This Internal resistance measurement does not have must meaning other than to compare each module to all the rest. Since your wiring and setup will be the same for all, if one has a very low or very high internal resistance measurement, that may tell you something about it when taking all the gathered data into account.

SETTINGS Menu <-- these options need to be set before doing any charging/discharging
NiMh Sensitivity, Delta V Default. I left the DeltaV sensitivity at 4mV which is the Default.
NiMH/NiCd Check Delay 0min I'm not too sure on what this setting does but I believe it is related to the DeltaV above. I left it at 0min.
Safety timer ON 230min Set the time limit to 230 minutes. At 6A discharge rate, it will only take a max of 1 hour to discharge a brand new module with 6Ah capacity. Obviously your old modules will take much less time to discharge. For charging at 2A, it will allow a module to charge up to 7,600 mAh which no module will ever reach unless you are doing some type of reconditioning, which i wont get into for this post.
Capacity Cut-Off ON 6000mAh I highly doubt any of your modules will ever reach this value while charging/discharging but this will be a safety cutoff.
Watt Limit (W) CHG:AUTO DCHG:80 You need to go into this menu page to verify the Discharge limit is set high enough to where it wont limit your max discharge current. I set it to the max of 80W.

Directions
Download the attached blank Excel spreadsheet. I changed the last column of the spreadsheet to add a third discharge column (second full discharge). Only 1 full discharge is necessary to know the capacity of the module, but if you have time and patience, a second full discharge will confirm the first full discharge results.
When you open your battery pack, take a permanent marker and number the modules 1 to 40 starting with the one closest to the fan.
I recommend gathering the measurements in the first two columns at the very beginning (internal resistance and initial voltage) for all the modules and then discharging/charging/discharging/charging/discharging one module at a time. If you can delay your initial measurements until 1 or 2 weeks after removing the battery from the car, that will give the worst self-discharging modules some time to discharge.
So once you have measured all the initial voltages and internal resistances, you'll begin performing the following steps for each of the 40 modules:

Initial 6A discharge to 6.0V. (Spreadsheet 1st Discharge) This will give you the capacity as removed from the car, not the FULL module capacity. The battery control module tends to keep the modules charged somewhere around 60-70% of their full capacity. Once this discharge is done, write down the mAh value given on the second line of the charger display. Wait 10 minutes before continuing to the charge step.
Auto Charge at 2A. (Spreadsheet 1st Charge) This will fully charge the module to prepare it for the next discharge. Write down the capacity (mAh value) given on the second line of the charger display in the appropriate column. This is how much power over time was input to the module. Wait 10 minutes before continuing to the next discharge step.
First Full Discharge (Spreadsheet 2nd Discharge). Same 6A to 6V as before, but you should expect to see a higher discharge capacity. This is the important measurement, so write down the capacity given on the second line of the charger display.

Now you have 2 options:
1) Repeat previous 2 steps on this same module to verify capacity and enter the charge/discharge capacities given by the charger into the spreadsheet in the 2nd Charge and 3rd Discharge column, or
2) Continue to the next module.

I did not select option #1, but did spend time trying to recondition some of the modules. If you do decide to verify the capacities, it will be beyond what I did and serve to provide better data.

To help you make a decision, calculate how long it took you to do the 2 previous steps and multiply that time by 40. Are you willing to spend that additional time overall for extra verification of capacity? if your modules are as bad as mine were, the discharge/charge process wont take very long (<1 hour). but if they take any considerable amount of charge, you will struggle to get through even the minimum first 2 steps for all the modules. Maybe you can decide on a threshold capacity that will trigger an additional verification. Like if you were to get any with over 3000mAh capacity, that might be worth verifying.
You can decrease the time required by using multiple chargers, but unless you have other uses for these chargers, you would need to buy and then sell them.







dnt1010 02-09-2019 04:21 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
That is perfect thanks. I am printing this off right now as a guide.
I might have to order the Turnigy equipment (not sure if there is anywhere here locally that sells it) so it might be next weekend when I get deep into it. I just took some basic voltage readings on the old battery to see if they were all pretty close to each other, it is penciled in on the sheet in the pic below. I know that the standing voltage data means very little but it satisfied my curiosity and helped me get familiar with the interior of the battery.
Please allow me to do my "SAFETY FIRST" Speech for anyone who is uninitiated thinking about doing battery disassembly.
A great deal of caution must be used when working on these batteries. I taped up my sockets / used electrical rated gloves / used safety glasses / long sleeved denim shirt and used general steady slow moving caution watching every move carefully. I found multiple spots around the pack where the HIGH voltage is 100% live with the busbar covers off!! These things are not play toys and are not for anyone unsure or careless. Please take this serious. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...cd87d26004.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...0528153625.jpg


dnt1010 02-11-2019 06:32 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
Gentlemen I wanted to relay to the forum an issue that popped up after my Hybrid battery replacement was completed this last Saturday afternoon. After completion and reconnecting the under-hood 12V battery I noticed that I did NOT have a time display on the head unit! Going to the menu and set clock on the basic menu it would not allow anything to be set. A little bit irritating, so of course I diod an internet search and finally figured out that there is "hidden" menu for the GM head units in these 2007 thru 2013 Tahoe/Yukon and Escalade units that allows you to reset the time. i guess the head unit has lost its time memory completely, what is really weird though is that all my radio stations were still programmed. According to what I read this loss of time can happen when the 12V battery is disconnected or becomes completely discharged. I have actually written the procedure down and put it in my glove compartment for future use, hopefully this will help someone dealing with the issue.
i could see someone driving for years without a time display thinking it could not be fixed or maybe thinking it just did not have a time display on the screen if they bought a used vehicle......................
Step 1 Punch Menu button
Step 2. Punch Display button
Step 3. Touch and hold your finger on the blank area at bottom left of touchscreen for 5 seconds. A screen with pop up to enter numbers.
Step 4. Enter code 295660 and push "Done" then the options menu should pop up.
Step 5. Go to 2nd page of the options menu (RESIST THE URGE TO PUNCH AND CHANGE ANYTHING EXCEPT FOR THE TIME SETTING LOL) punch "set time" menu on 2nd page and it will pop up a screen to enter date and time Please Note: You need to calculate your time difference from GMT the head unit uses strictly GMT and for me I had to add 6 hours to get the correct time to display. There is not a option to pick a time zone! you have to adjust your time to GMT and add or subtract hours as needed.
I really wanted to mess with some of the other settings in there but I had already read where other people had totally messed their head units up changing settings so I resisted. Time is displayed now Life is Good. .

Jaime 02-11-2019 07:25 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
The exact same thing happened to me. The clock digits were blank and when you went into the settings menu to change it, there were no digits either. I thought a Nav software update would fix it so I bought a 2015 Map DVD on ebay. Did the update and the clock was still blank. Finally found a reference to that secret menu and was able to set the time there after a couple tries. I put local time instead of GMT, so I had to redo it. The code I used to access the secret menu was 295660.

dnt1010 02-14-2019 07:26 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
got 2 out of 3 of my testing pieces today (leads and power supply). charge/discharge unit scheduled for Monday delivery. Bummed out a bit, I really wanted to do some testing this weekend.....

dnt1010 02-17-2019 01:10 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
1 Attachment(s)
It is raining here this afternoon so I decided to spend a few minutes in the ole workshop. Went ahead and ran another standing voltage test. (xls sht attached)
I understand that the test is pretty much meaningless but it is interesting that they have all dropped a little bit, just waiting on the Reaktor charge/discharger unit to continue. Will maybe have some time during the week to start if the Reaktor comes in Monday. I can hardly wait!

dnt1010 02-20-2019 08:45 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
Reaktor 1000W 30A charger/discharger unit showed up monday but the neighbors well pump went out and I spent my battery testing hours helping them for two days . Now tonight I finally unboxed the new unit and set it all up. I have done 1st discharge and 1st charge on module #1 Seems to take a very long time to run a complete cycle (hours) #1 module showed 59ohm 7.91V discharge 2999mAH charge 4998 mAH currently running 2nd discharge cycle and then quitting for the night. at this rate it will take over a month to do all 40 LOL. The Reaktor does require some attention but does not need to be constantly watched Once I see about how long each cycle takes I can do other things in between cycles, right now I am just drinking beer and staring at the readout screen LOL. This is going to be a fun project but will require several cases of beer.....................

dnt1010 02-23-2019 12:16 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
So making some progress but I need to figure out how to make the Turnigy 1000W 30A Reaktor log the data and then figure out how I can access it. The Reaktor instructions are not clear on all this. Anyone got any tips???
No way that I will be able to monitor this charge/discharge cycle and catch the aMH readout at the end of each cycle and get it written down.......................

dnt1010 02-27-2019 02:34 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
1 Attachment(s)
Jaime I have been running the discharge/charge/discharge/charge and have 22 out of 40 modules done. I have read your write up a few times but I cannot figure out Exactly how you generated the data for the Excel spreadsheet column marked Final Cap Recond??. Is that generated from just running the same discharge/charge/discharge/charge program a 2nd time and listing the 2nd discharge capacity there? Just trying to match up the best that I can so the data it is more comparable. Let me know if you get a chance. i still have a few days of gathering the base data anyway.
Oh by the way my son helped me set up the data logging program, that is a cool feature and saves all the discharge/charge/discharge/charge data in a file so it can be easily accessed without babysitting the Reaktor. You just have to swap leads once a cycle is complete. This would not be doable for me without the data logging, it would be too time consuming. It has been taking taking about 2 to 3 hours to run the 2 cycles on these module (10 minute delay between D and C) I just swap the leads whenever i see that a cycle is complete and hear the Reaktor Beeping.
Here is your Excel sheet partially filled out. I am also going to test the 6- modules that Bumblebee had sent me for comparison. iI will be very impressive if they are close to full capacity modules at over 10 years old (mine look severely deteriorated so far) ........... I might be done with all modules by the end of the upcoming weekend.
Phrase of the day "We Make It Real"

Jaime 03-01-2019 04:43 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
That "Final Cap Recond" column is not very useful. It was my attempt to recondition the cells using a variety of methods but there was not much of an improvement. Even if you were to somehow double the capacity of your lowest cells, they would still be too low in capacity to be useful. That is why I changed it to another Discharge cycle in the blank worksheet I provided, since it was a waste of time to try to recondition them.

dnt1010 03-03-2019 10:04 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
2 Attachment(s)
BAM done with the 40 modules in my old 10 year old +200k mile GM Two Mode Hybrid battery pack. Spreadsheet "attached" Looks like the modules are degraded quite a bit. Now I am wondering if I should try to recondition a few to see what happens?
NOTE: The Discharge/Charge time for 2 complete cycles varies widely by the modules health, on the better modules towards each end of the pack it took over 4 hours, other weak ones in the middle of the pack were less than 2 hours. If a person did this very much they would definitely want to have a Turnigy Quattro or some additional single chargers so that multiple modules could be done at the same time. I will try to remember to keep the thread update as I try some reconditioning on the weak modules + also test the bought modules for comparison. I just hooked up the first bought module a minute ago, if they are "Like New" it might take over 5 hours to run the cycle!! This will be very interesting.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...e2fc8fda22.jpg

dnt1010 03-07-2019 05:47 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
1 Attachment(s)
Used module testing spreadsheet "attached" . Note: these are older modules but still seem to still have pretty good capacity for their age. Would probably be good in an older pack that has lost a few modules and the remainder are pretty equal. I saw no need to post the graph curves but they are very interesting. I am sure that some of these companies that refurbish the packs have some very sophisticated machines that can match the old modules together properly and easily.
My feeling from my very limited testing and internet searching is that most refurbished packs out on the market will end up at around 60 to 70% of a new packs capacity but will probably run a few years if done properly.

Tahoe_08 03-08-2019 12:06 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 

Originally Posted by Jaime (Post 267052)
I swapped 40 low-mileage modules into our 2008 Tahoe battery pack and now my brother says it drives like a completely different car. I bought Two 2016 Prius C battery packs with 20 modules each. They were removed from salvaged cars with 16K and 20K miles from Sacramento and San Diego, CA.

Here are some of the problems experienced with the original battery pack:
  • Sluggish acceleration from a stop
  • Had to be light on the gas pedal from a stop to prevent the Internal Combustion Engine from stalling during the Auto-stop to ICE transition. Previously suspected the Aux Transmission Fluid Pump but it hasn't happened since putting in the “new” battery.
  • Unable to go very far in electric mode
  • Unable to go more than about 10-15mph in electric mode
Some of the codes that appeared with the original battery:
  • P0AC4 - Powertrain Control Module Requested MIL Illumination
  • P0BBD - Battery Pack Variation High
  • P0C32 - Battery Cooling System Performance
The original battery pack has a build date of November 8, 2007 (based on the serial number) making it more than 11 years old. The original modules inside had a build date of October 31, 2007. They were taken out at 165,000 miles.
Here are the results of the tests I did on the original modules:

I'd like to thank S. Keith for the guidance he provided during the compilation of this data and the installation of the "new" modules into the Tahoe battery pack.

What is your top speed before it switches to ICE my tops out at 29MPH before it switches over then I have E-assist to about 40MPH it has a battery pack from 2009 based on the serial number digit L with 84,300 miles on it :) California Binned Batteries

How much caked on dirt on the FAN i thought about taking it apart to clean everything(esp the BUS bar) for maximum battery performance.

dnt1010 03-08-2019 06:09 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...9318f6b2d4.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...4b611675cb.jpg
I believe that 29 mph is the automatic cutoff for EV mode? I have seen E-Assist kick in quite a bit, it just seems to kick in randomly. (I think there is an algorithm in the control computer) I have never noted the top speed at which E-assist will work. I was thinking that L = 2010 but would have to check that? I am going out of town for a bid walk-through today so I will try to remember to check on the E-Assist at highway speeds. On the dirt on my cooling fan blade wheel, it is fairly clean but my screen had some dirt built up on it. I had some very minor corrosion on the bus bars Note: mine appear to be SS material bus bar, not the copper bars like in a lot of the youtube videos. Battery reconditioning seems to have improved a couple of my very end modules but does NOTHING for the bad ones in the middle of the pack, I guess the middle ones are just "used up"
Interesting that I did not have any specific modules that had a dead cell or really any indication of them being that much different from each other. 90% of them appear to just be old / worn out and unable to hold good capacity. One thing I have learned from all this is that anyone with fair mechanical skills and that are safety conscience can replace modules. I plan on posting a few pics of where the voltage build back up when i put the bus bars back on. IT IS ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE to electrocute yourself if you are not careful with the bus bars on and the covers removed. You would have to be pretty careless though.........As Will Smith says in getting jiggy wit it "watch you step you might fall if you try to do what i did"
1:12

Tahoe_08 03-11-2019 03:34 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
I went on the freeway and it seemed to still have e-assist at 75mph it might be higher but there was a lot of CHP so I did not want to push my luck

class 0 gloves are required when taking it off

but once the bus bars are off the volts drop to 7-8 volts
but i have been shocked by 600volts DC (CCFL inverter )touched a live part I did not get burned or anything

but you can feel the power in your hand... not enough current in those things to do anything.
I really wish they had manual control over the EV and auto stop...and engine mode

this way the driver could optimize their fuel savings.. what if i'm on a down hill ? I could run on EV mode pretty much the whole way and run normal mode on the way back.. etc..

un like the traditional auto stop we got Electric power steering and AC etc


basically it's configured for areas with 25mph speed limit in mind.. and if you don't live in this areas you can't get the full benefits.

S Keith 03-11-2019 09:37 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 

Originally Posted by Tahoe_08 (Post 267595)
I went on the freeway and it seemed to still have e-assist at 75mph it might be higher but there was a lot of CHP so I did not want to push my luck

class 0 gloves are required when taking it off

but once the bus bars are off the volts drop to 7-8 volts
but i have been shocked by 600volts DC (CCFL inverter )touched a live part I did not get burned or anything

but you can feel the power in your hand... not enough current in those things to do anything.
I really wish they had manual control over the EV and auto stop...and engine mode

this way the driver could optimize their fuel savings.. what if i'm on a down hill ? I could run on EV mode pretty much the whole way and run normal mode on the way back.. etc..

un like the traditional auto stop we got Electric power steering and AC etc


basically it's configured for areas with 25mph speed limit in mind.. and if you don't live in this areas you can't get the full benefits.

You're working on a lot of invalid assumptions - 1) GM spent a lot of time optimizing this system. You're highly unlikely to do better. 2) the usable capacity of the HV battery is about the same as the total capacity of the 12V battery under the hood (how far do you expect to drive on the 12V alone?) and 3) This car is 100% gas. Period. Every joule of propulsive energy comes from gas. Any "EV mode" battery consumption has to be replaced with either recovered kinetic energy or most often gas.

12V/70Ah = 840Wh of electrical energy
288V/6.5Ah (40% utilized) = 749Wh of electrical energy.

The HV battery is not for propulsion in the EV sense. It's for kinetic energy recovery, release, for supplemental power where the ICE is least efficient and for power during auto-stop.

Just because the ICE is running, it doesn't mean it's providing any significant power or burning much gas. On a downhill, the ICE is still running, but depending on the gradient, you may even be charging the HV battery.

If you were to record your drives, you would find that every single drive results in more capacity being put into the HV battery than being extracted - due to inefficiencies. Where did that come from? Gas.

Concerning the bolded bit above, that is patently untrue. I'm guessing you're new to hybrids. This type of "MOAR EV mode!" thinking is common for those that don't understand how they work.

Tahoe_08 03-11-2019 01:08 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 

Originally Posted by S Keith (Post 267604)
You're working on a lot of invalid assumptions - 1) GM spent a lot of time optimizing this system. You're highly unlikely to do better. 2) the usable capacity of the HV battery is about the same as the total capacity of the 12V battery under the hood (how far do you expect to drive on the 12V alone?) and 3) This car is 100% gas. Period. Every joule of propulsive energy comes from gas. Any "EV mode" battery consumption has to be replaced with either recovered kinetic energy or most often gas.

12V/70Ah = 840Wh of electrical energy
288V/6.5Ah (40% utilized) = 749Wh of electrical energy.

The HV battery is not for propulsion in the EV sense. It's for kinetic energy recovery, release, for supplemental power where the ICE is least efficient and for power during auto-stop.

Just because the ICE is running, it doesn't mean it's providing any significant power or burning much gas. On a downhill, the ICE is still running, but depending on the gradient, you may even be charging the HV battery.

If you were to record your drives, you would find that every single drive results in more capacity being put into the HV battery than being extracted - due to inefficiencies. Where did that come from? Gas.

Concerning the bolded bit above, that is patently untrue. I'm guessing you're new to hybrids. This type of "MOAR EV mode!" thinking is common for those that don't understand how they work.

ev mode is good for 2 miles. if iwas able to get it to 40-45 then ICE kicks in it would benifit so much more ..


my city speed limits arr 40 to 60mph with traffic lights. initial start is when you waste the most amount of gas. if iwas able to to get to 40mpg before ice kicks in id be crusing at or near optimal speed for maximum
​​​ MPG

dnt1010 03-16-2019 08:49 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
These GM Two Mode SUV vehicles are heavy 5,270 to 5,527 lbs curb weight. It requires a lot more energy to make it move than a Prius (aka penalty box) which weighs 2,932 lbs about 1/2 as much. Best I can tell the GM Two Mode control systems utilizes a good portion of the battery systems potential as programmed from GM. it seems that after a few years the battery pack is pretty much USED UP. If you started utilizing even more of the battery potential below the threshold SOC and charging above it you would probably only have your stellar performance for a short period of time and then have a trashed battery pack............ Now that I have gotten interested in Electric vehicles I am thinking about ordering myself a Tesla Y SUV they look pretty cool.

Tahoe_08 03-21-2019 06:25 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
no the problem with AC motors is the in rush current I don't think they dealt with it with large enough capacitors 60KW and the inrush peak current will be 65-70kw or so. yeah it is PWM controlled

I know gm claims it's a delicate system as they claim it is
But if that is the case why is the DC to DC converter is 185amps (13/15v DC) to run accessories
185amps is pretty beefy system considering 145/160 amp is a "stock unit"...

The A/C runs straight off the 300VAC 3 phase (it's more reliable this way anyways then running a lower voltage air conditioning)..


a large 350V capacitor (does not have to be a single cap)(has to be rated higher then the input since that will be about 320-325v) buffer system would help in the longevity of the battery. placed in parallel with the battery ..

??? 09-05-2022 10:31 AM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 

Originally Posted by Jaime (Post 267080)
Since I'm not sure if sharing the actual schematic image is allowed and I don't want this post to be deleted, I'll just share the knowledge I gained by looking at the service manual:

Battery Fan Connector (FC)
Pin # - Name - Wire Color
Pin 1 - "Not Used" - D-GN
Pin 2 - "B+" - PK/D-BU
Pin 3 - Ground - BK/YE
Pin 4 - PWM Input - D-GN/BK

BECM X2 Connector
Pin # - Name - Wire Color
Pin 2 - PWM output - D-GN/BK
Pin 3 - "Not Used" - D-GN
Pin 7 - Fan Relay Control - WH/GN

Signal Descriptions
  • The battery control module (BECM) grounds a relay to apply 12V to the fan on FC Pin 2.
    • This would need to done externally if we wanted to even command the fan to 100% all the time, not just when the BECM decides the battery pack needs to be cooled.
  • The BECM also sends a PWM signal to the fan on FC Pin 4.
    • This signal is pulled up to 5V inside the fan. The BECM grounds the line to generate a pulse width modulated signal to control the fan speed.
  • The ground wire on FC Pin 3 connects to the battery case somewhere.
  • The wire on FC Pin 1 that you would expect to be a fan speed output signal says "Not Used" both in the Fan and the BECM pins.
    • This "Not Used" may not be true because in the battery cooling system description it says "The battery vent fan motor also supplies an additional 5 volt signal that indicates vent fan speed back to the BECM, the lower the voltage the greater the fan speed."
    • The P0A81 trouble code will be set if the fan has been commanded to 35% or higher and the "Fan control signal monitor voltage to BECM is greater than 2.3 volts or less than 0.5 volt for 5 seconds."
    • The P0BC1 trouble code will be set if the "fan has transitioned from either ON to OFF or from OFF to ON" and the voltage is above 0.9V for 1 second.
Possible Control Method #1
In order to run the fans at 100% with the flick of a switch and not throw error codes, it would be necessary to come up with a circuit that disconnects the BECM PWM signal, the fan speed feedback signal, and possibly also the relay control line from the BECM.
  • The PWM signal input at the fan would have to be grounded to make it run at 100%. If the BECM monitors the PWM output, it would need to be pulled up to 5V with a resistor to make the BECM think the fan is still connected.
  • The speed signal input from the fan to the BECM would need to be simulated to make the BECM think the fan is running at the commanded speed. This may be the showstopper, unless we use a microcontroller (Arduino for example) to read the PWM signal duty cycle and feed back an appropriate fake fan speed voltage to the BECM so it will think the fan is running at the commanded speed.
    • If the fan ever had a real failure while our circuit is active, the BECM would never know. The microcontroller would also need to detect this and stop fooling the BECM when S&@t hits the fan. :D
  • The fan relay control signal may not need to be disconnected if the BECM does not monitor the voltage at the output. Simply connecting it to ground externally may be enough.

Possible Control Method #2
Coming someday. Need to think some more.


old thread but this is interesting. cooling seems to be everything. I haven't had mine apart, but do we know if this is a brushed or brushless cooling fan? being gm I wonder if you can cross reference it to a newer brushless fan, or at least one that's designed for more rpm per the given voltage. we used to call this kv in the rc world. so it would then put out the same info to the bcm just spin faster giving the same pwm signal and using more power. also they make boxes now for cars with dead headed fuel systems, controlled by pwm, they can step up the voltage at wot for more fuel flow needed and then return to normal. it's adjustable, so you might be able to adjust it just before it sets a code. most 12v fans will handle 16v without hurting anything.

on another cooling thought. again I've not had the battery apart but is there enough room to put very thin aluminum or copper plates between each pack, and have it stick out some as a heat sink, using the same amount of air already there, just cool the center packs better? I did this once to an rc plane motor, it was very overly proped for its size to make the plane fly well, it would come down over temp, but a quick flat piece of aluminum between the motor and the mount, and some cuts to make fins. there was no noticeable drag flying but came down well within normal Temps.

just a thought I had while reading thru.

dnt1010 09-14-2022 08:00 PM

Re: Analysis of an 11 year old, 165K mile battery pack
 
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gre...eb835235c8.jpg
Zero room between modules for a cooling plate


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