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  #1  
Old 02-09-2008, 06:18 PM
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Default Hybrid Diesels

Just read an article in Popular Mechanics how VW has two diesel models available in Europe (Polo Bluemotion 1 & 2) that get 73.5 hwy mpg (converted to US gallons from 88.3 mpg imperial).

Given the increased energy density of diesel, I think its only a matter of time before we see diesel hybrids arrive. Anyone have any info or links for those?

I could see a VW Polo Hybrid Diesel smoking an Insight in fuel efficiency (and it seats 4).
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  #2  
Old 02-09-2008, 06:49 PM
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Default Re: Hybrid Diesels

VW et al. can't sell diesels here because they can't meet EPA emissions.

I think this year or next, VW will have the diesel Jetta up to USA standards. They had to quit selling the TDI here two years ago because of the new regs.

I'm sure that a diesel-electric hybrid would get supreme mpg, but diesel has a few probs:

It's more expensive than gasoline for much of the year. Diesel fumes stink. Also, the new EPA-friendly diesels will be expensive.

Personally, I'm a fan of diesel cars. But they've been around much longer than hybrids, yet Americans have never warmed up to them. I doubt they'll catch on in any meaningful way.

.
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Old 02-09-2008, 07:33 PM
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Default Re: Hybrid Diesels

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Originally Posted by 1stpik View Post
Diesel fumes stink.

Personally, I'm a fan of diesel cars. But they've been around much longer than hybrids, yet Americans have never warmed up to them. I doubt they'll catch on in any meaningful way.

.
BMW is also coming out with the 3-series diesel here (335d), with some pretty impressive mpg figures (22/33, for a 280hp car with TONS of torque--425lb/ft).

Diesel fumes no longer stink with ultra low sulfur diesel. I've seen a demonstration where they put a cloth over the exhaust for one of these ULSD engines and it looks completely clean when they remove it. They are more expensive just as gas engines became when catalytic converters came out.

I don't know though I could see diesel offering a compromise spot between mileage and performance. 425lb/ft of torque in the low band is ridiculous. Its also much friendlier on emissions.

I think its a matter of time before we see diesel hybrids offering 80+ mpg.
They should have pretty solid torque figures too as all diesels.
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:07 PM
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Default Re: Hybrid Diesels

Now if they could put a diesel engine in a Volt...

Full electric power around town, then high mpg while highway cruising. Win win for GM!
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Old 02-16-2008, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: Hybrid Diesels

The Polo Bluemotion (1.4L 80PS) costs 12,210 GBP and gasoline Match SE Dune (1.4L 80PS) costs 9,625 GBP.
They will require additional diesl premium to meet the US EPA certification plus hybrid premium.
Toyota is saying their next gasoline hybrid premium will be as half as the current model.
We would like to see more competition and look forward to seeing the best cost/mileage-performance vehicle.

Ken@Japan
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Old 02-17-2008, 07:31 AM
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Default Re: Hybrid Diesels

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Originally Posted by 1stpik View Post
...I'm sure that a diesel-electric hybrid would get supreme mpg, but diesel has a few probs:...
As far as that goes, gasoline has a few problems also...

Gasoline is extremely volatile and anthropogenic VOC emissions are the main reason why ground-level ozone (smog) persists in urban locations in the U.S.

Gasoline engines stink worse than diesel after cold starts (in my opinion).

Diesel fuel is currently more expensive than gasoline but it appears to be because of a supply and demand issue, not because gasoline is fundamentally less expensive to produce than diesel fuel. As a matter of fact, diesel fuel requires much less energy to refine than gasoline (also a CO2 emissions issue). At least two refineries have announced plans to increase diesel fuel output relative to gasoline, so there may be less of a supply/demand issue within the next few years (the relative amounts of gasoline:diesel refined from a barrel of crude oil is actually quite flexible).

Regarding the cost premium of a diesel hybrid, Ricardo has demonstrated that they can reduce the premium (over gasoline hybrids) to about $1000 ( http://www.dieselforecast.com/Articl...?articleID=321 ). Not sure if emissions equipment is factored into this, but it should be easier to meet emission regs with diesel hybrids anyway since most NOx emissions with diesel occur during power transitions, and hybrids smooth out the transitions.
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Old 02-26-2008, 10:58 PM
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Default Re: Hybrid Diesels

@WXMAN: Yep, but actually diesel is a low on fuel consumption, but as a hybrid diesels? hmm I dunno about that one (even there are some issues that the wear and tear of the car parts are high)
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Old 02-27-2008, 06:10 AM
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Default Re: Hybrid Diesels

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1stpik View Post
VW et al. can't sell diesels here because they can't meet EPA emissions.

I think this year or next, VW will have the diesel Jetta up to USA standards. They had to quit selling the TDI here two years ago because of the new regs.

I'm sure that a diesel-electric hybrid would get supreme mpg, but diesel has a few probs:

It's more expensive than gasoline for much of the year. Diesel fumes stink. Also, the new EPA-friendly diesels will be expensive.

Personally, I'm a fan of diesel cars. But they've been around much longer than hybrids, yet Americans have never warmed up to them. I doubt they'll catch on in any meaningful way.

.

Diesels have some hurdles to overcome with consumer acceptance here in the US. I think part of the problem is that a lot of us are old enough to remember the previous attempts to put a small diesel engine in autos and light trucks. The "diesel bunny" (VW Rabbit) back in the 80s was pretty bad and so were a lot of GM's diesels that that company put in light trucks. The concept is sound enough, but only the heavy duty engines manufactured for the big rigs seem to be really worth a **** and that seems to hold pretty much true even today from what I've heard from current diesel owners. These folks are forever going on about how great their diesels are and then in the next sentence they launch into a litany of apologies for "the few" repairs their vehicles have had.

And then there are issues with the "smell" (a complaint from a former Mercedes diesel owner who now owns a Prius). The inconvenience of purchasing fuel, the waiting times in cold temps at start up/glow plugs, etc. No one wants to mess with that s**t except certain guys who are diehards for the technology.
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  #9  
Old 02-27-2008, 10:30 AM
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Talking Re: Hybrid Diesels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterook View Post
Diesels have some hurdles to overcome with consumer acceptance here in the US. I think part of the problem is that a lot of us are old enough to remember the previous attempts to put a small diesel engine in autos and light trucks. The "diesel bunny" (VW Rabbit) back in the 80s was pretty bad and so were a lot of GM's diesels that that company put in light trucks. . . .

The inconvenience of purchasing fuel, the waiting times in cold temps at start up/glow plugs, etc. No one wants to mess with that . . . .
One of the interesting aspects of hybrid systems is the limitation of existing combustion engines can be dealt with very nicely. Ultimately, I'm expecting to see small, highly-optimized engines that under computer control have only one task, the efficient conversion of fuel to electrical power. The rest of the vehicle, a basic electric vehicle, handles the ordinary driving tasks.

Bob Wilson
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  #10  
Old 02-27-2008, 11:39 AM
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Default Re: Hybrid Diesels

CitroŽn have been saying for some time now that they will produce a diesel hybrid, it should be available this year. We'll see. And if so, it's very likely that it will also be available for Peugeot soon. (And Ford, Volvo, possibly Mini, who are also using the 1.6 l PSA diesel.)

In any case, when comparing mpg figures for diesel and gasoline, keep in mind that one litre of gasoline weighs 740 g, diesel 890 g. The relation for CO2 emissions per consumed litre is the same as the weight relation (or very close). - Unless of course if you like many others are only interested in the financial consequences, then you only need to bother with mpg and per litre (gallon) prices.

(Footnote: the european manufacturers discussed years ago producing cars with CO2 emissions less than 90 g/km. With gasoline, that's around 3.8 litre/100 km. With diesel, it's 3.2 l/100 km. So the idea became known as the "three-litre car". Everyone soon forgot about all this, and then VW launched their Lupo 3L with a consumption of 2.99 l/100 km. Diesel.)
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