Coping with 10% Ethanol
#1
04-03-2008, 05:27 PM
Coping with 10% Ethanol
By the end of the year, automobile fuel across Oregon is required to contain a 10 percent mix of ethanol, according to legislation passed in 2007 designed to promote renewable energy. Central Oregon’s deadline to convert to the blend is mid-September, although the E10 mix is now in some local gas stations.
I live in Central Oregon, where we are soon going to have 10% ethanol. I have read the post about blending fuels, but I don't see any information for Oregon that states that we will have anything higher than 10% ethanol, at least not in Central Oregon. I will make a mental note to look up stations and if they will carry any higher ethanol. Anyway, do any of you have any thoughts on how I can maintain decent mileage when I start using E10? After reading how E10 reduces mileage here in GH and the above referenced link, I think I will be stuck for a while with reduced mileage. The following quote concerned me, and I drive a TCH, not a Prius.
When Maren Craig drove her Prius to Portland in late January, she didn’t pay much attention to the fuel mileage her hybrid car was getting. The computerized display on her dashboard showed somewhere between 50 and 55 miles per gallon, typical for her highway mileage, said the Bend resident.
In Portland, she filled up, noticing the station carried a blend of gasoline and 10 percent ethanol, and then headed south on I-5 toward Medford.
Along the way, her gas mileage dropped more than 20 percent.
“I got 38.9 miles to the gallon,” she said. “I was just horrified. I thought something must be wrong with my car. That had never happened before.”
In Portland, she filled up, noticing the station carried a blend of gasoline and 10 percent ethanol, and then headed south on I-5 toward Medford.
Along the way, her gas mileage dropped more than 20 percent.
“I got 38.9 miles to the gallon,” she said. “I was just horrified. I thought something must be wrong with my car. That had never happened before.”
Jason
#3
04-03-2008, 07:28 PM
Re: Coping with 10% Ethanol
http://www.bendbulletin.com/apps/pbc...&nav_category=
I live in Central Oregon, where we are soon going to have 10% ethanol. I have read the post about blending fuels, but I don't see any information for Oregon that states that we will have anything higher than 10% ethanol, at least not in Central Oregon. I will make a mental note to look up stations and if they will carry any higher ethanol. Anyway, do any of you have any thoughts on how I can maintain decent mileage when I start using E10? After reading how E10 reduces mileage here in GH and the above referenced link, I think I will be stuck for a while with reduced mileage. The following quote concerned me, and I drive a TCH, not a Prius.
Thank you for any incite,
Jason
I live in Central Oregon, where we are soon going to have 10% ethanol. I have read the post about blending fuels, but I don't see any information for Oregon that states that we will have anything higher than 10% ethanol, at least not in Central Oregon. I will make a mental note to look up stations and if they will carry any higher ethanol. Anyway, do any of you have any thoughts on how I can maintain decent mileage when I start using E10? After reading how E10 reduces mileage here in GH and the above referenced link, I think I will be stuck for a while with reduced mileage. The following quote concerned me, and I drive a TCH, not a Prius.
Thank you for any incite,
Jason
I don't rely on the Prius display, but us GH's database. Right now I'm in TX. Don't know if AZ and NM use E10, but my calculated mpg is 53, 54, 57. I've never got less than 45 mpg, and that was on a single tank.
Come to think of it,, I'm not even sure Cal is an E10 state, tho I think that is the case.
#4
04-06-2008, 09:22 AM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Coping with 10% Ethanol
E10 has 3% less energy.
E10 should give you 3% lower MPG. This is expected.
However, E10 adds more oxygen to the fuel. The exhaust O2 sensors see this increase in oxygen, and say to the engine "you can add more fuel to use up that oxygen".
So not only are you getting less energy in each gallon, now, your car is injecting more fuel at the same time. This "feedback loop" will cause some cars to see 10% lower MPG.
If your car gets more than a 10% drop in MPG when using E10, you should look deeper for other causes such as wind, terrain, and temperature.
It turns out at E30, 30% ethanol, most cars give the same, or better MPG than E10.
If your mileage is the same, you might as well save a few cents with E30, and send some pocket change to a mid-west farmer vs. mid-east shiek.... but unless you live in the just handful of cities that have E30 pumps, you need to fudge this blend on your own by mixing gas or E10 with E85. It's not exactly easy, nor an exact science either.
Most cars with electronic fuel injection can handle up to 50% ethanol without issues.
It is best to move the ethanol % up or down in small steps if possible. It takes cars more than 30 miles / 30 minutes to adjust to a new ethanol percentage, and your MPG, and car's performance will suffer, sometime dramatically during the adjustment process.
I've used 6 or 7 tanks of E85 in my normal car. It runs very, very well on E85.
There is more power, and it climbs hills at lower RPM.
It starts easily at 15'F.
But it idles rough if I change the ethanol by more than 25% in one "jump".
-John
P.S. California uses 5.75% ethanol which was an exact replacement, oxygen wise, for MTBE. Calif. will move to 10% ethanol soon.
Even if your MPG goes down ( and it will ) 10% ethanol produces 30% to 50% lower emissions than pure gas, so it's more of an environmental thing, than a MPG thing!
E10 should give you 3% lower MPG. This is expected.
However, E10 adds more oxygen to the fuel. The exhaust O2 sensors see this increase in oxygen, and say to the engine "you can add more fuel to use up that oxygen".
So not only are you getting less energy in each gallon, now, your car is injecting more fuel at the same time. This "feedback loop" will cause some cars to see 10% lower MPG.
If your car gets more than a 10% drop in MPG when using E10, you should look deeper for other causes such as wind, terrain, and temperature.
It turns out at E30, 30% ethanol, most cars give the same, or better MPG than E10.
If your mileage is the same, you might as well save a few cents with E30, and send some pocket change to a mid-west farmer vs. mid-east shiek.... but unless you live in the just handful of cities that have E30 pumps, you need to fudge this blend on your own by mixing gas or E10 with E85. It's not exactly easy, nor an exact science either.
Most cars with electronic fuel injection can handle up to 50% ethanol without issues.
It is best to move the ethanol % up or down in small steps if possible. It takes cars more than 30 miles / 30 minutes to adjust to a new ethanol percentage, and your MPG, and car's performance will suffer, sometime dramatically during the adjustment process.
I've used 6 or 7 tanks of E85 in my normal car. It runs very, very well on E85.
There is more power, and it climbs hills at lower RPM.
It starts easily at 15'F.
But it idles rough if I change the ethanol by more than 25% in one "jump".
-John
P.S. California uses 5.75% ethanol which was an exact replacement, oxygen wise, for MTBE. Calif. will move to 10% ethanol soon.
Even if your MPG goes down ( and it will ) 10% ethanol produces 30% to 50% lower emissions than pure gas, so it's more of an environmental thing, than a MPG thing!
#5
05-01-2008, 08:29 PM
Re: Coping with 10% Ethanol
E10 has 3% less energy.
E10 should give you 3% lower MPG. This is expected.
However, E10 adds more oxygen to the fuel. The exhaust O2 sensors see this increase in oxygen, and say to the engine "you can add more fuel to use up that oxygen".
So not only are you getting less energy in each gallon, now, your car is injecting more fuel at the same time. This "feedback loop" will cause some cars to see 10% lower MPG.
If your truck part gets more than a 10% drop in MPG when using E10, you should look deeper for other causes such as wind, terrain, and temperature.
It turns out at E30, 30% ethanol, most cars give the same, or better MPG than E10.
If your mileage is the same, you might as well save a few cents with E30, and send some pocket change to a mid-west farmer vs. mid-east shiek.... but unless you live in the just handful of cities that have E30 pumps, you need to fudge this blend on your own by mixing gas or E10 with E85. It's not exactly easy, nor an exact science either.
Most cars with electronic fuel injection can handle up to 50% ethanol without issues.
It is best to move the ethanol % up or down in small steps if possible. It takes cars more than 30 miles / 30 minutes to adjust to a new ethanol percentage, and your MPG, and car's performance will suffer, sometime dramatically during the adjustment process.
I've used 6 or 7 tanks of E85 in my normal car. It runs very, very well on E85.
There is more power, and it climbs hills at lower RPM.
It starts easily at 15'F.
But it idles rough if I change the ethanol by more than 25% in one "jump".
-John
P.S. California uses 5.75% ethanol which was an exact replacement, oxygen wise, for MTBE. Calif. will move to 10% ethanol soon.
Even if your MPG goes down ( and it will ) 10% ethanol produces 30% to 50% lower emissions than pure gas, so it's more of an environmental thing, than a MPG thing!
E10 should give you 3% lower MPG. This is expected.
However, E10 adds more oxygen to the fuel. The exhaust O2 sensors see this increase in oxygen, and say to the engine "you can add more fuel to use up that oxygen".
So not only are you getting less energy in each gallon, now, your car is injecting more fuel at the same time. This "feedback loop" will cause some cars to see 10% lower MPG.
If your truck part gets more than a 10% drop in MPG when using E10, you should look deeper for other causes such as wind, terrain, and temperature.
It turns out at E30, 30% ethanol, most cars give the same, or better MPG than E10.
If your mileage is the same, you might as well save a few cents with E30, and send some pocket change to a mid-west farmer vs. mid-east shiek.... but unless you live in the just handful of cities that have E30 pumps, you need to fudge this blend on your own by mixing gas or E10 with E85. It's not exactly easy, nor an exact science either.
Most cars with electronic fuel injection can handle up to 50% ethanol without issues.
It is best to move the ethanol % up or down in small steps if possible. It takes cars more than 30 miles / 30 minutes to adjust to a new ethanol percentage, and your MPG, and car's performance will suffer, sometime dramatically during the adjustment process.
I've used 6 or 7 tanks of E85 in my normal car. It runs very, very well on E85.
There is more power, and it climbs hills at lower RPM.
It starts easily at 15'F.
But it idles rough if I change the ethanol by more than 25% in one "jump".
-John
P.S. California uses 5.75% ethanol which was an exact replacement, oxygen wise, for MTBE. Calif. will move to 10% ethanol soon.
Even if your MPG goes down ( and it will ) 10% ethanol produces 30% to 50% lower emissions than pure gas, so it's more of an environmental thing, than a MPG thing!
#6
05-02-2008, 11:29 AM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Coping with 10% Ethanol
Yes, ethanol is environmantally friendly. The production process removes CO2 from the air, and burning it puts less CO2 back compared to gasoline. Pure ethanol is non-toxic, and you can drink it. Fuel ethanol is always mixed with gas, so it is poisonous. It's Octane is about 115 for pure ethanol ( which you can't get ) and the Octane of E85 ( 85% ethanol ) you can get is 105. Ethanol is often used to make "regular" gas into premium gas, but this varies from state to state.
The main problem with ethanol is not with the engine. The engine will usually perform better with ethanol in the mix. You will always get lower harmful emissions with ethanol too. The problems, if any, stem from the electronics... those pesky O2 sensors primarily, and the computer program in the car that does not know how to deal with ethanol.
In old cars ( 1980 and older for example ) ethanol should not be used with natural rubber parts, natural cork gaskets, fiberglass tanks, or lead-lined tanks. These things you will not find in newer cars.
#7
05-02-2008, 04:21 PM
Re: Coping with 10% Ethanol
It is an alternative fuel. Better or worse is up to individuals to determine.
Yes, ethanol is environmantally friendly. The production process removes CO2 from the air, and burning it puts less CO2 back compared to gasoline. Pure ethanol is non-toxic, and you can drink it. Fuel ethanol is always mixed with gas, so it is poisonous. It's Octane is about 115 for pure ethanol ( which you can't get ) and the Octane of E85 ( 85% ethanol ) you can get is 105. Ethanol is often used to make "regular" gas into premium gas, but this varies from state to state.
The main problem with ethanol is not with the engine. The engine will usually perform better with ethanol in the mix. You will always get lower harmful emissions with ethanol too. The problems, if any, stem from the electronics... those pesky O2 sensors primarily, and the computer program in the car that does not know how to deal with ethanol.
In old cars ( 1980 and older for example ) ethanol should not be used with natural rubber parts, natural cork gaskets, fiberglass tanks, or lead-lined tanks. These things you will not find in newer cars.
Yes, ethanol is environmantally friendly. The production process removes CO2 from the air, and burning it puts less CO2 back compared to gasoline. Pure ethanol is non-toxic, and you can drink it. Fuel ethanol is always mixed with gas, so it is poisonous. It's Octane is about 115 for pure ethanol ( which you can't get ) and the Octane of E85 ( 85% ethanol ) you can get is 105. Ethanol is often used to make "regular" gas into premium gas, but this varies from state to state.
The main problem with ethanol is not with the engine. The engine will usually perform better with ethanol in the mix. You will always get lower harmful emissions with ethanol too. The problems, if any, stem from the electronics... those pesky O2 sensors primarily, and the computer program in the car that does not know how to deal with ethanol.
In old cars ( 1980 and older for example ) ethanol should not be used with natural rubber parts, natural cork gaskets, fiberglass tanks, or lead-lined tanks. These things you will not find in newer cars.
Unfortunately the referenced URL is not responding, therefore I'm withdrawing it.
Last edited by centrider; 05-02-2008 at 05:05 PM. Reason: URL not responding.
#8
05-19-2008, 08:12 PM
Re: Coping with 10% Ethanol
I live in Central Oregon, where we are soon going to have 10% ethanol. I have read the post about blending fuels, but I don't see any information for Oregon that states that we will have anything higher than 10% ethanol, at least not in Central Oregon. I will make a mental note to look up stations and if they will carry any higher ethanol. Anyway, do any of you have any thoughts on how I can maintain decent mileage when I start using E10? After reading how E10 reduces mileage here in GH and the above referenced link, I think I will be stuck for a while with reduced mileage. The following quote concerned me, and I drive a TCH, not a Prius.
Thank you for any incite,
Jason
We've been using E10 here for years in Missouri... never really had any problems. I wouldn't worry about it too much.. the reduction in economy you probably won't even notice.
Ethanol actually has a higher octane than gasoline, so no need for any additives.
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