[quote=CopperJP;182095]Beyond the lower energy content of ethanol, readers should also consider the use of oil in creating and transporting the ethanol (almost equaling what is being "saved") in addition to the financial ramifications - ethanol is artificially driving up the cost of corn (good for corn farmers, bad for anyone with livestock to feed - and bad for a good portion of the third world who relies on corn as a major food staple). Increased ethanol use had increased US and global food prices about 3-5% in the last year alone (per the EPA) - not great for inflation in our already precarious economic position.
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Good grief! Ethanol is made out of field corn. We don't eat field corn. For each bushel of field corn used: (2.8 gal of ethonal and 18 lbs, or about 1/3 of a bushel, of distillers grain is produced in an average ethanol plant. Distillers grain has more calories, energy and is easier for a cow to digest then corn. In 2007, the United States produced more corn than ever, made more ethanol than ever and exported more corn than ever! How much corn is in a box of Corn Flakes? Not much when you compare it to the bushel of corn. Blaming ethanol production for significant increases in the 10 cents worth of corn in the Corn Flakes does not make sense. It is likely the sky rocketing cost of oil plays a larger role in food costs than ethanol.

 

Ethanol in my opinion is a waste of energy. watch King Corn.
However your right, the cost of oil is driving up the cost of groceries for the most part however using corn for ethanol is a waste of time and energy as it will solve nothing.
Over time is we continue to use it it will also drive food prices up.

 

I always thought that livestock ate field corn, oh well..... I have been conducting an ongoing comparison of reg 87 vs 91 octane fuels and FE. It appears that using 89-91 octane fuel (here in MA all fuels must contain ethanol up to 10%). I get better FE, on the order of 5-7mpg better with the higher rating than using 87 reg. I filled up with 89 octane at a bargain Gulf station on my previous tank and noticed that the FE was only as good as when I used 87 octane. They may be labelling it 89 but my thoughts are that they are only selling 87 at the 89 price to make a few more bucks. Just filled up at Citgo with 89 and FE is back up to 50+ mpg vs the 44-45 of previous tank....under similar driving conditions. The 89-91 octane must have more ethanol to boost the rating.??? Or I wonder how they blend it from the underground tanks??? By the way, there is only 1 ethanol E85 station in MA at the present time. So much for all the flex fuel vehicles I see on the roads here. They will all have to fuel up in Chelsea to reap the benefits....

 

http://www.goodfuels.org/2008/07/usda-chief-ethanol-does-not-equal-high-food-prices/
Critics of renewable fuels link ethanol production to rising food prices. These attacks normally fail to point out the factors that determine the Consumer Price Index (CPI) for food, with the price of corn just part of the equation. A 33 percent increase in crude oil prices, results in a 0.6 to 0.9 percent increase in the CPI of food while an equivalent increase in the corn price cause the CPI to rise only 0.3 percent.

Ethanol uses field corn. This field corn is processed at the ethanol plant where ethanol is produced, CO2 is captured for sale to beverage companies, corn syrup is produced and sold, distillers grain is produced and sold to farmers for cow/cattle feed and believe it or not, an anti-icing product (alternative to highway road salt) is produced.
drymillingethanol.jpg?t=1216949729
wetmillingethanol.jpg?t=1216949762

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distillers grain

Then there is cellulose ethanol production that is seeing its first plants under construction.

 

WE don't eat much field corn directly... however COWS and CHICKENS DO! We also eat a great deal of items containing High Fructose Corn Syrup and Corn Syrup.... All of those come from Field Corn. So just counting the corn meal content of a box of corn flakes isn't the whole story.... Eggs, chicken, beef, almost all sweetened products, etc. It does have an effect on price because so much of it is being diverted....if it wasn't driving the price up why are farmers getting more for it? It'd be nice to think they can "pass the cost of fertilizer and gas" on to their customers... but my family is a bunch of farmers and I've got to say... they've never been able to pass increased costs on before... they've had to live with it. This time however the price is going up because demand is up. It has an effect on your food costs, the question is how much...

In the end I'd have to agree that the larger majority of the cost of food that has increased probably has more to do with oil prices than anything else. Transport of the goods and raw materials consumes alot of energy...

 

The cost of corn on the market has dropped $2.00 a bushel this month on the Chicago Board of Trade. Could it be due to drop of oil prices? Could it be due to readjustment of production and demand ratio? Oops, no evidence that ethanol or corn is in short supply. Could it be due to market speculation and abuse of the naked short selling rule?

Something tells me market speculation abuse is playing a much larger role in prices increases then it should be lawfully allowed to be.

 

Watch it sometime, its at your normal rental places.

 

Doesn't have to be in short supply to drive prices up... just needs more demand. Like I said though.... I think food cost increases have more to do with oil prices than anything. I agree by the way....I wouldn't be suprised if there is a WHOLE lot of speculation going on, just like for oil. As for adjustment of supply/demand.... Supply can only be "planned on" once a year. When you plant. Then its up to the weather.

The thing that bugs me is that even if we used our entire crop of corn for ethanol... we'd only replace about 12% of our gasoline usage. (thats from a national geographic article I read I believe but it might have been from NPR) We really need to be looking for something far more efficient than corn for making ethanol. Cellulose, switchgrass, etc. Right now the big push for ethanol production from corn has a lot more to do with the government bowing to special interests and the farm lobby than any realistic estimate of how much good it does for gas consumption. It helps... but I wish the government would invest a lot more on better answers.

 

[quote=TeeSter;183559]... We really need to be looking for something far more efficient than corn for making ethanol. Cellulose, switchgrass, etc.

At the opposite end of your state, a cellulose ethanol plant is under construction in Madison, Pa. Links:

http://earth2tech.com/2008/04/24/coskatas-pilot-plant-to-bring-1-a-gallon-ethanol-closer/

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f81/gm-announces-location-coskata-cellulosic-ethanol-plant-63660/
Yes, an ethanol plant that can make ethanol out of sewage! and other municipal waste products. Cost for this ethanol? $1.00 a gallon for the producer. There is a future for ethanol. It can be part of the overall solution for transportation needs. It would be stupid to use transportation fuel to ship corn based ethanol from the Mid-West into your area.

 

Argonne National Laboratory Ethanol Study:
Link: http://www.ncga.com/ethanol/pdfs/Wang2005.pdf

ethanol comes out way ahead when you are looking at either 1) the amount of fossil energy needed or 2) the amount of petroleum energy needed.

Study doesn't include any military cost related to protecting oil shipments!