How to Blend Your Own Fuel, and Why You Should - Page 2 - GreenHybrid - Hybrid Cars


Alternative fuels Running biodiesel, E85, Natural Gas, Propane? Chat here!

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #11  
Old 12-28-2007, 12:13 AM
gpsman1's Avatar
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Thread Starter

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,588
Default Re: How to Blend Your Own Fuel, and Why You Should

#1 Did you know that "HEET" is mostly alcohol? Alcohol is what removes water from gas tanks / gas lines.

#2 Ethanol (alcohol) fuel is not made from "food corn" directly, as humans only eat a small % of the corn produced in any year, but it can be argued that the ethanol corn is animal food, and the animals ( cattle, pigs ) are used to feed humans, but there are many people who say the U.S. in particular eats too much red meat anyway.

( for the record, I eat more than my fair share of red meat... )


So far, in my car I get:

About 31 MPG Highway (Winter) on pure gas.
About 27 MPG Highway (Winter) on 10% ethanol.
About 27.5 MPG Highway (Winter) on 30% ethanol.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-28-2007, 05:17 AM
bwilson4web's Avatar
Engineering first

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 5,613
Question Re: How to Blend Your Own Fuel, and Why You Should

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpsman1 View Post
. . .
So far, in my car I get:

About 31 MPG Highway (Winter) on pure gas.
About 27 MPG Highway (Winter) on 10% ethanol.
About 27.5 MPG Highway (Winter) on 30% ethanol.
The 27.5 is an important result but somewhat difficult to measure. Could you go over how you measure it? What sort of driving terrain?

Do you have instrumentation to look at the ICE rpm, torque and fuel flow? This would make it easier to read out the efficiency.

I live in North Alabama. Would you have a recommended URL that might point me at regional sources of E85?

Thanks,
Bob Wilson
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-28-2007, 07:39 AM
Active Enthusiast

 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 95
Default Re: How to Blend Your Own Fuel, and Why You Should

Bob: http://www.e85refueling.com/

I found an E85 station that's only a few miles from my house, near the Pentagan. I tried the mix ~E30, but still only about 120 miles into the first tank. So far I'm about 1.5mpg below my long term average average ... I do see the car learning already the new mix. My first day driving I was down 5mpg below average driving the same. I'm going to give it 2 tanks to see what the results will be to see if it's worth the hassle.

Last edited by MiaTurbo; 12-28-2007 at 07:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-28-2007, 08:25 AM
bwilson4web's Avatar
Engineering first

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 5,613
Default Re: How to Blend Your Own Fuel, and Why You Should

Quote:
Originally Posted by MiaTurbo View Post
Bob: http://www.e85refueling.com/

I found an E85 station that's only a few miles from my house, near the Pentagan. I tried the mix ~E30, but still only about 120 miles into the first tank. So far I'm about 1.5mpg below my long term average average ... I do see the car learning already the new mix. My first day driving I was down 5mpg below average driving the same. I'm going to give it 2 tanks to see what the results will be to see if it's worth the hassle.
It looks like the nearest is Nashville TN. If I pickup 5 gallons of E85, I can brew up 14.1 gallons of E30. That would be enough for a tank and a half. I would just need three, 5 gallon cans and they run about $10/each. For $30, I could test the mixture.

What I'm more interested in is why E30 vs. E10, E15 or E85? What is the 'theory' behind this ratio versus any other?

Thanks,
Bob Wilson
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-28-2007, 08:47 AM
Active Enthusiast

 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 95
Default Re: How to Blend Your Own Fuel, and Why You Should

here is the study that a lot of people are refering to: http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmg...inal_12507.pdf

30% seems to be a sweet spot for most vehicles tested. E85 gas is about 15% cheaper, so I figured I had nothing to lose by testing it myself. The only variable here is the human one as outside of a lab, 30% in the tank is hard to get accuratly. but if things are going to improve on the car, i doubt if it's not 30% exactly; ie 25-35%, it will matter much. I'm mixing in tank, so I know i'm a little off, but like i said, doubt it will alter testing outside of a lab much with all the other variable: weather, driving condition changes, etc.

How i mix: My first tank I know I've been using E10 for a few weeks, and know that's at the pump. So I added to the 13gl tank about 3gl of E85, and topped it off with regular. As soon as this tank is low (I'm going to wait until the gauge has 2 bars on it which is about 10gl low) I'll add ~2.25gl of E85, and top off with regular. This will maintain the ~30% mix taking account the 30% mix that's already in there.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-28-2007, 09:26 AM
bwilson4web's Avatar
Engineering first

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 5,613
Default Re: How to Blend Your Own Fuel, and Why You Should

Thanks for the info. I've got a full plate of things to test: (1) next transaxle oil flush and change, (2) exhaust mods, (3) battery experiments, and (4) tire experiments. However, I may be able to squeeze in an ethanol test in the spring. I need 'standard days' and that is at least four months away.

What I can measure is the speed, fuel trim, air flow, injector timing, ICE rpm and ICE torque while the car is running. I have a standard hill that I climb at 55 miles per hour to get reproducible energy data. In the spring, I can do the fuel tests just after my spring oil change and maintenance.

Thanks,
Bob Wilson
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-28-2007, 11:51 AM
gpsman1's Avatar
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Thread Starter

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,588
Default Re: How to Blend Your Own Fuel, and Why You Should

Bob- I used cruise control repeatedly over a ~100 mile section of interstate at 65 miles per hour. All days were cold, in the teens and 20's outside. No significant wind... not enough wind to bump the car around that I was aware of. Winds were light, and a cross-breeze.

E10 Sold for $2.899
E85 Sold for $2.169 during one tank of testing.

That makes E85 about 25% cheaper cost in my town.

3.5 x $2.169 = $7.59
11.5 x $2.899 = $33.34

15 gallons of E30 fuel cost $40.93 or $2.728 per gallon.
A savings of $2.565 per tank

15gal x 27.5 MPG = 412.5 miles traveled at 65 MPH cruise control, E30.
15gal x 31.0 MPG = 465.0 miles traveled at 65 MPH cruise control, gas only.

52.5 extra miles, if from pure gas would equal 1.7 gallons and if from E30 would be 1.9 gallons.

So really, E30 is costing me more than gas I think.

But the whole point is, E10, which is what most people are forced to use will cost more extra per tank, when compared to gas only.

This is a "premium" fuel with a premium price. E30 is about 97 octane, and has a large effect on cleaning up emissions, and you will also use 30% less gasoline, which equals about 10% less foreign oil use, since some foreign oil is used to manufacture the ethanol, of course. E10 is only saving about 3% oil, and costs more per mile than E30.

I just mixed 3.5 gal of E85 with 11.5 gal of E10, since all gas in MN is 'supposed' to be E10. The Ford Escape reads "empty" at about 14 gallons, but really holds about 17 gallons.

To use, or not to use E30 is a personal, and complex question.
However, I think E10 is currently a bad choice.
My personal choice is to use 30% if possible, as there are more benefits to it than E10.
-John

P.S. I'm visting So. Cal. and "regular" gas here has 6% ethanol and costs $3.359 near my folks house.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-28-2007, 01:27 PM
Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 11
Default Less foreign oil and better emissions - reason for me

I'd like to again say thanks to everyone for their info on Ethanol enhanced fuel. I will be mixing my own as soon as I can - to see for myself, and the nearest station that sells E85 is still 40 miles from here.

I posted earlier about the horrible effects 10% ethanol had on my 86 EFI Toyota 4x4. I forgot to mention that this engine already had a number of mods to get some HP out of an archaic 2.4L 4 cylinder.
A huge number, actually including a custom cylinder head (not a Toyota casting), camshaft, header, injectors, a decked block and milled head to increase compression, custom pistons, flywheel, K&N filter element, 2.5" exhaust system, etc. And while all this means I have enough power to move the truck well, it gets horrible mpg and won't run on anything that isn't good ole' full oil unleaded. Maybe I'll try testing it again someday soon - I kinda broke the rear axle awhile back LOL.

So readers - please don't think that your stock 22RE equipped 4 cylinder Toyota truck won't run on ethanol blends - they probably will. I think we owe it to ourselves to try this, even by guess-timating a mix level at the pump. Maybe sometime soon we'll be able to push an E30 or E40 button on the pump and help our economy and our air quality. I'd buy it today if it was 5 bucks a gallon .
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12-28-2007, 02:24 PM
gpsman1's Avatar
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Thread Starter

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,588
Default Re: Less foreign oil and better emissions - reason for me

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckaaron1 View Post
Maybe sometime soon we'll be able to push an E30 or E40 button on the pump and help our economy and our air quality. I'd buy it today if it was 5 bucks a gallon .
These exist today in the states of Kansas, Minnesota, and S. Dakota ( and perhaps Iowa ). They are called "blender pumps". ( but there's not very many in service yet )

You can choose E10, E20, E30, E50, E85.

The station owner has just two tanks of gas, E10, and E85. The pump does the rest.

Actually, almost every gas station on the planet has blender pumps.
The station owner only buys High Octane and low Octane. The mid-grade is usually a 50/50 mix of the two.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12-29-2007, 07:42 PM
Ridiculously Active Enthusiast

 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Long Beach, Calif
Posts: 530
Default Re: How to Blend Your Own Fuel, and Why You Should

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpsman1 View Post
There is increasing evidence that E10, or gas with 10% ethanol is the worst possible blend for your car. The 10% is just enough to mess with the fuel, but not enough to get the sensors to "adjust" properly. ( or the reverse, the 10% messes with the sensors to a much greater degree than is called for )

3 recent studies, one by Volvo, one by the University of North Dakota, and one by Minnesota State University all point to a "sweet spot" MPG in most cars using E30, or 30% ethanol.

In the case of the I4 2.3L Ford Fusion, this car got better MPG with 30% than with 100% gasoline. The Ford Fusion did worse than gasoline, but better than predictions based only on btu content, with 20% ethanol.
The Ford Fusion did worse than predictions at 10% ethanol, and blends over 45% ethanol.

The 2.4L Toyota Camry also did better than pure gasoline with 30% ethanol.
The 3.5L Chevy Impala did best on 40% ethanol, nearly as good as pure gas, but not quite.

It seems in modern, newer cars ( the 3 cars tested were all 2007's ) the air/fuel sensors, and fuel injectors adjust "properly" ( or at least to your advantage... the lean side of things ) at about 30-40% ethanol.

NONE of the cars tested got a "check engine" or warning lamp with less than 50% ethanol. Some "regular" cars can run on up to 65% ethanol before getting a check engine lamp. All cars "run" on E85 ( just poorly ).

So myself and some others at work are going to give this a shot.
( most people I know do not drive hybrids though )
We are going to mix our own 30% and 40% ethanol fuel.
It is easy to do if you live in an area where you can get E85.
Just "dilute" the E85 with regular gas.
( or "enrich" your gas with some E85 )

The tables below tell you exactly how to do this.
Table 1 is for E85 and plain gas.
Table 2 is for E85 and E10 gas.

If possible, allow 3 tanks for your car to fully "learn" the new mix, and to average out weather and traffic concerns that affect MPG.
However most researchers feel this adjustment period only takes 30 minutes / miles.
Please report your findings. Thank You. -John
Hmm. I drove through out the mid-west this past summer (S.D., Ia, Wisc., Michigan, Ill, Ind., Ok) and I found my '06 Prius averaged over 50 mpg. A lot of that driving was on local, county, state and US roads.
Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Topic Starter Forum Replies Last Post
About the AC clutch bearing, and why you should keep a short drive belt in the trunk. HCivHybrid2005 HCH I-Specific Discussions 0 01-25-2013 10:57 AM
Did you install your own satellite radio? KimikoPi Toyota Camry Hybrid 11 04-17-2008 09:32 PM
Have you changed your own Pollen Filter? EZ2beGreen HCH II-Specific Discussions 5 07-10-2007 10:54 AM
Do you change your own oil? aspenboy Honda Civic Hybrid 24 03-26-2007 08:29 AM


Tags
al, blend, blended, blends, e85, ethanol, ethenol, fuel, gas, gascan, gasoline, honda, huntsville, insight, pure, red, stations

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:41 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.