My father warned me 30 years ago about the trans fats. He went on and on about,"that artificial crap" which is how he referred to the coffee "creamers" that were some of the earliest sources of trans fat. The "crap is like candle wax." He was a Chemist,at times a food chemist-for several years he worked on emulsifiers for foods and cosmetics.
I should have paid more attention. He stuck with butter, when I was switching to corn oil margarine(hydrogenated of course). He also said it was a BIG MISTAKE to cave in to the campaign against Tropical oils that some very rich guy successfully pushed years ago.It is true that Tropical oils-palm, coconut etc did have high levels of saturated fat, but he correctly predicted that Tropical Oils would be replaced with Partially hydrogenated oils-"artificial crap" with loads of trans fat!! In general Tropical oils are probably very slightly less atherogenic than animal fat, and worlds safer than any hydrogenated oil!!
Most food processing involves removing something,adding something,concentrating something, but the underlying nutrients are chemically unchanged.There might be less of them, but they are unchanged. Hydrogenation is one of the few processes that produces wholly "new" chemicals. Some cooking can produce some nasty stuff-flaming on a grill etc-but hydro. was "new". There were plenty of folks-Chemists- who predicted 30+ years ago that it was a mistake.
Unfortunately, hydro. allowed companies to make food products with cheaper oils.Rapeseed oil, soy oil, cottonseed oil were pretty cheap-cheaper than tallow or butter-but in their natural form they were prone to oxidation-they went rancid. Older folks can remember cheap commercial baked products from the 60's-70's that left a peculiar aftertaste in your mouth. The aftertaste was the slightly oxidized-rancid-cheap polyunsaturated vegetable oil(yes, rapeseed is canola oil which is high in monos-the name was "changed "to Canola because rapeseed oil had such a bad rep as nasty tasting stuff-it was really cheap back then because it had a short shelf life,and a nasty taste).It also improved "mouth feel" by raising the melting point.You could make cheap stick margarine with the "feel" of butter.
Food companies embraced Hydro because it kept the items from going rancid-longer shelf life, better taste-and it allowed them to use cheap oils that were used for animal feed in the USA(or lubricants in the distant past like rapeseed oil), or sold overseas for human consumption(cheap calories, and cooking oil).It also allowed them to make oils "look like" fats,so corn oil margarine could look like stick butter. It raised the melting point ,so it was solid at room temp. This also gave the food products better "mouth feel".
Yep, we have poisoned ourselves for the last 35-40 years.
Charlie

 

Even evil corporations see the writing on the wall when activist and profiteering lawyers see a shakedown, and politicians see an opportunity to beat their chests for the sake of the children. You believe it takes a law, I see it happening without government bans.

Yet somehow it occurs naturally, scientists model it off something. Normal is subjective, a lot of food isn't normal, unless we ban everything but raw food. It is all relative, and to me the process of making trans fat isn't alien.

You keep asking this. The articles you have show simply say that HDL is good and LDL is bad with no statistics to back them up. Again I'm skeptical without statistics, I want to analyse real studies not op-eds. From the trans fat epidemiology studies the science is hardly in, weak correlations at best is all I can conclude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by earthling

Many countries in Europe allow only 4% of trans fatty acids in any foods made with hydrogenated oils, some ban them altogether. Do these countries know something we don't? Some countries like Denmark have banned hydrogenated oils for over 40 years. It is interesting that Denmark has the lowest diagnosed rates of heart disease, cancers, breast cancer, diabetes, auto-immune diseases than any other country in the world. What is even more interesting is that they consume more saturated fat in the form of dairy products. Again, do they know something we don't? No, we know it, we're just not paying attention to the research studies.

Did Denmark banned trans fat 40 years ago?, the second paragraph of the above site says that Denmark enacted a ban in 2003?, did you mean 3 years ago, wow quick results in only 3 years.

The first line of the above site is "David Lawrence Dewey was the first journalist to raise the warning flag to consumers concerning the deadly health effects of hydrogenated oils in 1996." Dewey does have an ego. Willett might argue with him, but Willett wouldn't call himself a report and so he might have to concede. Call me a litle skeptical of this dubious site. As I read further I see the common trick of stating how cancer has increased from 1973 year until 2004 but not including an adjustment for age. Cancer is a disease of old age and our population had grown significantly older, it is no surprise that there is more cancer. The truth is that the same number of 45 year old and 55 year old and 65 years olds are getting the same kinds of cancer, but because the average life span has gone up, there are more 80 year olds and 90 years olds still living long enough to also die of cancer. Age adjusted cancer rates simply haven't gone up.

Dewey appears to be among the the conspiracy theorists that believe that Aspertame and Splenda and MSG are deadly poisons, can we simply discredit his site on this evidence. Life expectancy keeps going up while crack pots like Dewey try to claim there is mass death and illness from these products. He does no studies, just spins anecdotes and claims with no solid footnotes.

Should we really get into the tabacco lawsuits. They are nothing more than an agreement between tobacco and government to allow both to keep the money coming in with tobacco getting an agreed upon monopoly with government getting an agreed upon payoff and tax revenue which it promised to spend on reducing new smokers and helping smokers quite, while actually spending it on what ever it feels like. Ultimately a tax on the poor who continue to smoke anyway.

But American Spirit cigarettes are all natural, nothing alien.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earthling

Click here for a New York Times article about HDL cholesterol. Here is an extract:

"There is considerable evidence linking an increased risk of heart disease and stroke more strongly to low HDL levels than to high LDL levels. For every one-milligram rise in "good cholesterol," the risk for developing cardiovascular disease falls by 2 percent to 3 percent. A level of 60 milligrams or higher helps to protect against this major killer.

In addition to enabling the body to get rid of unwanted cholesterol, HDL also acts in several other protective ways: as an antioxidant deterring the harmful oxidation of LDL, and as an anti-inflammatory agent, helping to repair what is now considered a major player in blood vessel disease. And it has anti-clotting properties, which can help keep blood clots from blocking arteries."

Op-Ed piece, not stats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by earthling

Click here for an article about raising your HDL (good) cholesterol level.

Again, what is it about "trans fats raises LDL and lowers HDL" do you not understand?

More op-ed, no data or footnotes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earthling

Again, I've raised my HDL cholesterol from 22 to 42 by eliminating trans fats from my diet.

There is abundant research on the implications of HDL levels to your health. It is accepted fact.

Good for you, but you haven't shown us the facts yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earthling

Studies

There have been many studies about the health effects of trans fats. Here are some examples.
1. A major comprehensive study on the health effects of trans fats was published in April 2006 in the New England Journal of Medicine. The study brings together the findings from different studies and contains several findings, including the following:

On a per-calorie basis, trans fats appear to increase the risk of coronary heart disease more than any other macronutrient, conferring a substantially increased risk at low levels of consumption (1 to 3 percent of total energy intake). In a meta-analysis of four prospective cohort studies involving nearly 140,000 subjects, including updated analyses from the two largest studies, a 2 percent increase in energy intake from trans fatty acids was associated with a 23 percent increase in the incidence of coronary heart disease....

Click here to read the study. Click here to read a summary of the study.

Great a rehash of the 3 studies that we already confirmed gave a risk factor of 1.31, accept now it combines 4 studies and concludes 1.23, we are getting weaker and weaker with this correlation.

Here is a graph from the above study that puts it into perspective for me.

It would appear that the Nurse's Study was downgraded to the relative risk of 1.33 instead of the 1.93 and the Zutphen study was added to make 4 so our best evidence went from 1.31 to 1.23. All the op-eds that said "nearly double the risk" need to reword it to say, "new study finds that trans fat is nearly two thirds less dangerous as once believed" You don't seem to mind when op-eds dwell on a single study as those that used the 1.93 now 1.33 Nurses study did? Keeps coming back to Willett.

I'd think they'd stop using the EURAMIC study, it shows transfat reduced the risk of heart disease.

Should I start asking what part ofthe National Cancer Institute's statement - "In epidemiologic research, relative risks of less than 2 are considered small and usually difficult to interpret. Such increases may be due to chance, statistical bias or effects of confounding factors that are sometimes not evident" do you not understand?

These are the best studies and honest epidemiologists don't consider a 1.23 risk factor worth mention. Politicians, activist, and lawyers on the other hand try to use such data as solid evidence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earthling

2. In a cross-over diet trial, scientists randomly assigned 29 healthy men and women to a diet high in trans fat, or a high saturated fat diet in which the trans fat was replaced by saturated fats. The trans fat came mostly from partially hydrogenated soybean oil and the saturated fat came from palm kernel oil. After four weeks on one diet, the subjects were crossed over to the other diet. For each subject, the researchers took four measurements of artery dilation in the arm. They found that the ability of the blood vessels to dilate was 29 percent lower in people who ate the high trans fat diet compared to those on the saturated fat diet. Blood levels of HDL cholesterol were 21 percent lower in the high trans fat group compared to the high saturated fat group. [De Roos, Bots and Katan: "Replacement of Dietary Saturated Fatty Acids by Trans Fatty Acids Lowers Serum HDL Cholesterol and Impairs Endothelial Function in Healthy Men and Women Atherosclerosis, Thrombosis and Vascular Biology": Journal of the American Heart Association, July 2001.]

You finally brought up some real science, not the stuff Willett is peddling. This small study indeed shows that on average if you eat 9.2% transfat you will see a lowering of HDL of 20%, you must have been eating considerably more than 9.2% on you cookie and peanut butter diet to get your nearly 50% increase in HDL. The report said that the average intake of transfat was between 4-7% or significantly less than the diet of the test people. I'd like to see the same data for .5%, 1%, 1.5%, 2%, etc up to 9% to see how linear this HDL reduction is.

That it for now, getting late, your googling is getting better.

Still hasn't convinced me that government bans are the way to go, threats of law suits seem to be working, government has a way of stepping in after market forces are at work solving real and perceived problems.

Avoid trans fat, and government bans.

 

Agreed.

The burden is on the food industry to prove that partially hydrogenated oils are safe, and not the other way around.

The proof says trans fats are harmful and in fact deadly.

Trans fats have to go.

Informed consumers should ban trans fats themselves, simply due to the compelling evidence and the fact that government is far too slow to act, with smoking a prime example of that.

Regarding HDL:

What is HDL cholesterol?
About one-third to one-fourth of blood cholesterol is carried by HDL. Medical experts think HDL tends to carry cholesterol away from the arteries and back to the liver, where it's passed from the body. Some experts believe HDL removes excess cholesterol from plaques and thus slows their growth. HDL cholesterol is known as "good" cholesterol because a high HDL level seems to protect against heart attack. The opposite is also true: a low HDL level (less than 40 mg/dL in men; less than 50 mg/dL in women) indicates a greater risk. A low HDL cholesterol level also may raise stroke risk.

That is from http://www.americanheart.org/present...dentifier=4488

I trust that source as being well-informed.

It is important to note what lab values ARE associated with risk for heart disease. The two most important are the HDL/Cholesterol and Triglyceride/HDL ratios. Generally the HDL ratio should be above 25 and preferably in the 30s. If it is in the 40s, that nearly guarantees immunity from heart disease. Whereas if it is below 15, and certainly below 10, a heart attack is inevitable. To calculate the ratio simply divide your TOTAL cholesterol by your HDL and multiply by 100 (move the decimal point over two places to the right). It is just a matter of when, not if, it will happen. The triglyceride ratio should be below 2.0.

The above is from: http://www.mercola.com/1998/archive/...sease_risk.htm

The new drugs either raise "good" cholesterol (HDL) or try to improve its effectiveness. That's because HDL is a kind of blood-borne barge that hauls fat from the artery wall to the liver for excretion. Studies show that people with high levels of HDL have cleaner arteries and less risk of heart attack.

That is from http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...se-cover_x.htm
Why is HDL the good cholesterol?

HDL is the good cholesterol because it protects the arteries from the atherosclerosis process. HDL cholesterol extracts cholesterol particles from the artery walls and transports them to the liver to be disposed through the bile. It also interferes with the accumulation of LDL cholesterol particles in the artery walls.
The risk of atherosclerosis and heart attacks in both men and is strongly related to HDL cholesterol levels. Low levels of HDL cholesterol are linked to a higher risk, whereas high HDL cholesterol levels are associated with a lower risk.
Very low and very high HDL cholesterol levels can run in families. Families with low HDL cholesterol levels have a higher incidence of heart attacks than the general population, while families with high HDL cholesterol levels tend to live longer with a lower frequency of heart attacks.

from http://www.medicinenet.com/cholesterol/page4.htm

The Framingham Heart Study has been a strong proponent of the concept that a low serum HDL-cholesterol level is a major risk factor for CHD.51525354555657 Framingham reports advise that the inverse association between HDL-cholesterol levels and CHD risk at least equals the positive association between CHD risk and serum LDL-cholesterol levels. Data from Framingham were influential in the NCEP decision to classify a low HDL level as a major risk factor for CHD.23

from http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/97/18/1876

Okay, there's the proof that HDL levels are strongly correlated to heart disease, and that low HDL is deadly.

Trans fats lower HDL. That is scientific fact.

Regarding "peanut butter and cookies diet," sure that was unhealthy. But it was unhealthy because the dangers of partially hydrogenated oils have been kept hush-hush. Keep in mind that all french fries at fast-food restaurants, all fried chicken, all baked goods such as pies and cakes, all of that is saturated in partially hydrogenated oils, so the typical American is exposed to extremely high levels of trans fats, isn't aware of that, and has no clue of the deadly health effects.

That has to change, and if it takes a government ban on trans fats, so be it.


good health to all,

Harry

 

There are bright spots in the battle against trans fats:

Wendy's International Inc. has reduced trans fats by switching to a different cooking oil, while McDonald's Corp. has been trying since 2002 to reduce trans fats in its french fries.

"We've served million of servings, and customers cannot tell the difference in taste," said Bob Bertini, a spokesman for Wendy's. "It was cost-neutral to us -- using the new oil costs no more than the old oil."

I'll go out of my way to eat at a Wendy's. They've always emphasized quality and customer service.

from http://heart.healthcentersonline.com...rorwellian.cfm

The Dunkin' Donuts chain in 2004 started removing trans fats from its bagels, muffins, and cookies and is researching alternative ways to make the poster child of trans fats -- doughnuts -- healthier while still satisfying customers.

That's good news: I can eat cookies and blueberry muffins again. I've always appreciated their coffee. You can check their ingredients online.

Dec 21 (Reuters) - A lawmaker introduced a bill on Tuesday that would make Massachusetts the first U.S. state to ban artificial trans fats from restaurants, closely following New York City's ban of the artery-clogging oils.

Good luck, Massachusetts. from
http://heart.healthcentersonline.com...sachusetts.cfm

Harry

 

I've noticed lately my blue jeans are really loose around my waistline. And I haven't been doing any dieting at all. I am at my ideal weight.

This may provide a clue:



"Diets rich in trans fat cause a redistribution of fat tissue into the abdomen and lead to a higher body weight even when the total dietary calories are controlled," said Lawrence L. Rudel, Ph.D., professor of pathology and biochemistry and head of the Lipid Sciences Research Program.


“What it says is that trans fat is worse than anticipated,” Rudel said. “I was surprised.”


According to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), consumption of saturated fat, trans fat, and dietary cholesterol raises low-density lipoprotein (LDL), or "bad" cholesterol, levels, which increases the risk of coronary artery disease.


“We conclude that in equivalent diets, trans fatty acid consumption increases weight gain,” said Kavanagh.


Over the entire course of the study, there was a small but significant difference in weight between the two groups. “In the world of diabetes, everybody knows that just 5 percent weight loss makes enormous difference,” Kavanagh said. “This little difference was biologically quite significant.”

Rudel said, “The study was specifically funded to look at the role of trans fatty acids in atherosclerosis.”


He said that at the time he got a grant from the National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute, there was not much evidence in the literature and no animal models that documented the hazards of trans fats, though there are data showing it was a risk factor for atherosclerosis.

Kavanagh said the six-year length of the study was equivalent to 20 years in people.


According to the FDA, trans fat is found in vegetable shortenings, some margarines, crackers, cookies, snack foods, and other foods made with or fried in partially hydrogenated oils. Unlike other fats, the majority of trans fat is formed when food manufacturers turn liquid oils into solid fats like shortening and hard margarine by adding hydrogen.


Since Jan. 1, the FDA has required the amount of trans fat to be listed in the nutrition facts panel on all foods. But the restaurant industry is exempt.


Other researchers on the American Diabetes Society report include Janice D. Wagner, Ph.D., D.V.M., John Jeffrey Carr, M.D., Kate Jones, B.S., Janet Sawyer, M.S., and Kathryn Kelly., B.S., all from Wake Forest University School of Medicine. from http://www.bantransfats.com/index.html

Harry

 

Earthling,I'm not quoting you exactly, but a 1.2 RR can be significant. If the study is big enough it can be significant in the stat. sense, and if the population at risk is big enough, it can be significant in the "dead people" sense. Yes, everyone becomes a dead person, but depending on when they die, it can mean years of life lost.
The 1.2 RR can be even more suggestive, if it is accompanied by a dose effect.The more you eat, the more likely the bad event is to happen. Eat none, have a .5 RR-eat like a pig, have a 1.5 RR-eat "normally" have maybe a 1 RR. Studies of this sort can't absolutely prove cause beyond a shadow of a doubt, but if there is a dose effect present, it is pretty suggestive.
Now,laws, and other forms of pressure, can have unintended consequences(if you get it wrong). The rich guy(Paul Sokolof) who lobbied against tropical oils is a case in point. He was so successful that all the FF places quit using Tropical oils(and the countries agricultural industry-mainly poor-took a huge hit). Of course, the FF places switched from "Bad" Tropical Oils to unsaturated oils that were slightly "modified." This well meaning too well healed crusader was probably responsible for many 1000's of man-years of life lost.It really hit the economy of the Phillipines, Malaysia etc.
Tropical oils are much better food products than hydro veg oils.Butter is most certainly much safer than the alternatives we were offered for the last 30 years(yes,I know that there are new preps out there that are essentially unmodified Canola oil-).Canola Oil taste like crap relative to butter.
There has been a lot of going off half cocked in respect to individual components of diet. However. the current wisdom on Hydro Veg oils-that isn't half cocked-that jury is in. It was/is a crummy food. The alarm on hydro oils went out well over 30 years ago.
I don't think the "free market" is always the best answer.Partially because the "market" is never free(soy oil producers lobbied against Trop oils, so they could sell more hydro oil)-it is always subject to political pressure(MONEY $$$$).There is no free market.
If the government had waited on the car manufacturers to install seatbelts/airbags etc how many 100,000 years of life would have been lost.
Now,should folks be protected from themselves? Yes,sometimes. Why? Because many people are ignorant fools and would rather buy fancy audio equipment for their cars than the safety items that will save the lives of their children.
On other subjects-illegal drugs for example-I think they should be legalized-just like Tobacco.No one is ever killed for a cigarette.Tax them, and run clever ads to discourage use/over use of them. Waaay to many folks are in jail because of this really stupid "WAR ON DRUGS.". Now we are in a real war-shouldn't be wasting resources on BS "war on drugs" crap!!
Hmmm,I am shooting wide of the mark!.Sorry.
Charlie

 

Charlie, I agree whole-heartedly.

I am still eating plenty of peanut butter sandwiches and cookies. My cookies now have no partially hydrogenated oils. I eat quite a lot of Newmans' Own cookies which have palm oil. Regular cholesterol testing reveals that my cholesterol numbers are "perfect," so the tropical oils in my case are not doing me harm, and are not impacting my cholesterol numbers in any negative way.

I have switched to Smuckers "old fashioned" peanut butter which has all of two ingredients: peanuts and salt. Peanut butter is actually a very healthy product as long as it has no partially hydrogenated oils. The big food giants managed to ruin a healthy product: they took the very healthy peanut oil out and replaced it with partially hydrogenated soybean oil!

People can't be faulted for consuming partially hydrogenated oils when they are not informed of the negative health effects. I became very angry when I realized the harm it had done me, with no one informing me of the dangers. Why isn't the government doing more to warn people? (Lobbyists, probably).

By the way, this isn't just a case of deaths. In fact, I would argue that the most serious effect of a diet that contains partially hydrogenated oils is the harder to measure short-term memory problems and cognitive decline. I had some of that, and it is frightening.

I am feeling so much better and so much sharper now that I have been free of partially hydrogenated oils for almost 18 months. It's nice to know that my cholesterol numbers are so good now that my arteries are being cleaned out now, and not clogged. That is having a tremendous effect on my future health and quality of life in my later years.

Thanks, Charlie.

Harry

 

Earthling,
Smuckers peanut butter. I LOVE peanut butter, and switched to it,FROM PETER PAN-8 or so years ago. I wish I had done it sooner.
Funny, my dad warned me about the hydrogenated oils many, many years ago(at least 30), but I kinda thought he was just using it as an excuse to use butter-instead of "healty" vegetable oil margerine, and cream/milk in his coffee instead of the substitutes.He loved eating milk products-butter, milk,ice cream etc. I thought I was doing something healthy by using Fleishmanns Corn oil margarine (mis-spelled probably) instead of butter.It wasn't until about 8-10 years ago that the atherogenic properties of hydrogenated oils became publicised-and that was mainly in professional journals.
The general public wasn't made aware of the problems until maybe 4-5 years ago.Your Nemesis-worthywads- is somewhat correct that the "final word"-definitive science isn't as dead clear as you would like it to be. It takes a long,long time to study the long term effects of a food product, or a medication, on humans -we live 80 years- and we are exposed to 1000's of chemicals, environmental exposures(radon,ozone,sunlight,electric fields,X-Raya,Gamma rays,STDs,millions of pathogens-the list goes on). It is really hard to pin to blame on the intake of one chemical.
HOWEVER,the fact that some of the better studies have shown a clear DOSE EFFECT of Trans fats is a pretty good indicator that they are to be avoided!!!!
WORTHYWADS-I actually meant to address you with my comments on dose effect. I goofed and directed it at earthling. This isn't meant as a personal attack, I've come late to this discussion, but there is good evidence that consuming trans fats is a health risk. Epidemiologists don't snear at 1.2 RR if the study is big enough,and it is a significant result. Of course a 1.2 RR of getting a hang nail isn't a big deal-1.2 of having an MI 6 months "early" is a big deal. Nothing personal.
I don't think big corps intentionally set out to make a bad product-WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT?? I don't think they attempted to conceal some "smoking gun." It just turns out that the trans fats are bad for you-mildly poisonous.No bad intent. They are in business to make money by delivering a good food product.They just missed a bit-
THIS IS A CAUTIONARY TALE ON MANY LEVELS-The sub of the hydro for Tropical oils because of lobbying by "health interest groups", and USA agricultural groups.The condemnation of eggs and milk products in favor of the "polyunsaturated oils". The modification of the unsat oils to a chemical animals had never consumed (but that happens a lot in food processing and in drug manu).I'm not sure how, or if, this could have been avoided?!
Oh well,
Merry Christmas,
Charlie

 

One of the best ways to reduce your cholesterol is to incorporate alot of beans in your diet. My cholesterol has been around 120-140 for the past 15 years. It was lowest when I was in grad school and lived off a diet of kidney, pinto, and black beans mixed with sauted (in olive oil) onions, green peppers, garlic, and other spices.

I seasoned the mix with rice wine vinegar to give it a slightly tangy, sweet taste, and made simple burritos or fajitas out of them using gourmet tortillas, or whatever bread you can think of.

Beans...I tell you folks...it will do wonders.

 

Harry,

Try learning how to bake your own...it's VERY VERY easy. You can make the mix in less than ten minutes...add your own ingredients, and you have it. I know it sounds wierd but flavour your cookies with olive oil, not butter...egg whites, not eggs, and season to taste (i.e...low sugar, salt) they come out very chewy, add, almonds, cranberries, blue berries, whatever...

It's so easy to make it's a crime to pay for them believe me....and they are SO MUCH better than store bought stuff.