88,000 miles on a used FEH. Good or bad idea?
#31
12-16-2008, 05:09 PM
Re: 88,000 miles on a used FEH. Good or bad idea?
Gary, you misread my post... I was referring to you not having either of the cars I was talking about (HCH or FFH). I'm not referencing your FEH experiences when trying to address Willard's charges as I feel having two totally different models (HCH vs FEH) makes the comparison weak.
I'm not calling you out and I don't doubt your LMPG numbers or disagree that there is better FE to be had than EPA numbers when a vehicle is driven by a skilled driver such as yourself. If you look at the overall MPG reported on cleanmpg and here you'll note the mean FEH mileage is 32MPG (right where the EPA says it should be). I expect the FFH to continue that legacy and I feel that this is an instance where Ford has been true to the public in giving them a vehicle that gets EPA on the average.
I too have logged all 28,657mi (70 tanks worth) that my 2008 FEH has gone since day 1 on both sites. I feel your E10 pain and a good bit of your summer heat issues as well. All that said, I have no doubt that you are a better FE driver than I am and I read every post you make about your techniques (how else would I know better than to NOT get between you and John
).
I'm not calling you out and I don't doubt your LMPG numbers or disagree that there is better FE to be had than EPA numbers when a vehicle is driven by a skilled driver such as yourself. If you look at the overall MPG reported on cleanmpg and here you'll note the mean FEH mileage is 32MPG (right where the EPA says it should be). I expect the FFH to continue that legacy and I feel that this is an instance where Ford has been true to the public in giving them a vehicle that gets EPA on the average.
I too have logged all 28,657mi (70 tanks worth) that my 2008 FEH has gone since day 1 on both sites. I feel your E10 pain and a good bit of your summer heat issues as well. All that said, I have no doubt that you are a better FE driver than I am and I read every post you make about your techniques (how else would I know better than to NOT get between you and John
).
#32
12-16-2008, 06:23 PM
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Re: 88,000 miles on a used FEH. Good or bad idea?
Administrators, can you please move this info over to a Toyota thread, because this has nothing to do with the Ford Escape Hybrid.
Williard, did you post Toyota information here on purpose, or by accident???
I've been driving in sub-freezing weather for 4 years now.
I've been driving in sub-zero this past week.
My regen braking in my FEH has never been disabled in cold weather.
If my battery pack is very cold, the amperage in and out is lower, but never disabled. Even this week at -15'F I had full ( over 65 amps, with 70 amps being the maximum possible ) regen braking, since my pack was +60 degrees and my engine temp was "normal".
The regen strength follows the physical/chemical properties of the battery itself. The battery temperture ONLY dictates the regen brake ability.
OUTSIDE AIR TEMPERTURE IS NOT USED TO CONTROL REGEN BRAKEING.
PERIOD. PROVEN. COME TO MY HOUSE AND I'LL SHOW YOU.
Williard, did you post Toyota information here on purpose, or by accident???
I've been driving in sub-freezing weather for 4 years now.
I've been driving in sub-zero this past week.
My regen braking in my FEH has never been disabled in cold weather.
If my battery pack is very cold, the amperage in and out is lower, but never disabled. Even this week at -15'F I had full ( over 65 amps, with 70 amps being the maximum possible ) regen braking, since my pack was +60 degrees and my engine temp was "normal".
The regen strength follows the physical/chemical properties of the battery itself. The battery temperture ONLY dictates the regen brake ability.
OUTSIDE AIR TEMPERTURE IS NOT USED TO CONTROL REGEN BRAKEING.
PERIOD. PROVEN. COME TO MY HOUSE AND I'LL SHOW YOU.
In the conditions you describe you probably NEVER had an opportunity to recharge the hybrid battery. If the OAT "hovers" around freezing or below the regenerative braking firmware goes into a different control mode. Since the potential is so much greater at these temperatures for encountering an icy/slippery roadbed the level of regenerative braking to be used is reduced significantly. Additionality the regenerative braking "assist" capability may even be disabled during actual braking. Should ABS activate during actual braking regenerative braking is INSTANTLY disabled.
Unintentional/inadvertent (engine compression or regenerative) braking, especially on a FWD or F/AWD vehicle can become desastorous so quickly it's virtually unbelievable . Absent a driver downshifting to/for a serious level engine compression braking due to simple throttle left will hardly ever result in loss of directional control. ON the other in an FEH/MMH/Tribute should you lift the throttle and the hybrid battery's charge be "threatenly" low you might very well incur a significant level of braking due to regeneration. That could prove hazardous for the FED/MMH/Tribute at times the roadbed surface is more likely to be slippery.
So, don't "YOU" downshift radically in a non-hybrid when there is that potential and the firmware will handle that job for you in an HSD.
Unintentional/inadvertent (engine compression or regenerative) braking, especially on a FWD or F/AWD vehicle can become desastorous so quickly it's virtually unbelievable . Absent a driver downshifting to/for a serious level engine compression braking due to simple throttle left will hardly ever result in loss of directional control. ON the other in an FEH/MMH/Tribute should you lift the throttle and the hybrid battery's charge be "threatenly" low you might very well incur a significant level of braking due to regeneration. That could prove hazardous for the FED/MMH/Tribute at times the roadbed surface is more likely to be slippery.
So, don't "YOU" downshift radically in a non-hybrid when there is that potential and the firmware will handle that job for you in an HSD.
Last edited by gpsman1; 12-16-2008 at 06:27 PM.
#33
12-16-2008, 06:50 PM
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Re: 88,000 miles on a used FEH. Good or bad idea?
Administrators, can you please move this info over to a Toyota thread, because this has nothing to do with the Ford Escape Hybrid.
Williard, did you post Toyota information here on purpose, or by accident???
I've been driving in sub-freezing weather for 4 years now.
I've been driving in sub-zero this past week.
My regen braking in my FEH has never been disabled in cold weather.
I have never said that regen was disabled during cold climate operations, only reduced below the level that the resulting braking effects on the driven wheels, FRONT drive wheels, would otherwise have a high potential for causing loss of control should an icy spot on the roadbed be inadvertently encountered.
I did say that regen is INSTANTLY disabled, TOTALLY disabled, upon ABS activation during actual brake pedal depression. Your anti-lock braking system can release brake pressure in short bursts in order to keep those front wheels rolling enough, "just" enough, for you to be able to maintain directional control. Were regen not disabled at those times your anti-lock system might prove to be non-functional.
If my battery pack is very cold, the amperage in and out is lower, but never disabled. Even this week at -15'F I had full ( over 65 amps, with 70 amps being the maximum possible ) regen braking, since my pack was +60 degrees and my engine temp was "normal".
The regen strength follows the physical/chemical properties of the battery itself. The battery temperture ONLY dictates the regen brake ability.
OUTSIDE AIR TEMPERTURE IS NOT USED TO CONTROL REGEN BRAKEING.
PERIOD. PROVEN. COME TO MY HOUSE AND I'LL SHOW YOU.
Williard, did you post Toyota information here on purpose, or by accident???
I've been driving in sub-freezing weather for 4 years now.
I've been driving in sub-zero this past week.
My regen braking in my FEH has never been disabled in cold weather.
I have never said that regen was disabled during cold climate operations, only reduced below the level that the resulting braking effects on the driven wheels, FRONT drive wheels, would otherwise have a high potential for causing loss of control should an icy spot on the roadbed be inadvertently encountered.
I did say that regen is INSTANTLY disabled, TOTALLY disabled, upon ABS activation during actual brake pedal depression. Your anti-lock braking system can release brake pressure in short bursts in order to keep those front wheels rolling enough, "just" enough, for you to be able to maintain directional control. Were regen not disabled at those times your anti-lock system might prove to be non-functional.
If my battery pack is very cold, the amperage in and out is lower, but never disabled. Even this week at -15'F I had full ( over 65 amps, with 70 amps being the maximum possible ) regen braking, since my pack was +60 degrees and my engine temp was "normal".
The regen strength follows the physical/chemical properties of the battery itself. The battery temperture ONLY dictates the regen brake ability.
OUTSIDE AIR TEMPERTURE IS NOT USED TO CONTROL REGEN BRAKEING.
PERIOD. PROVEN. COME TO MY HOUSE AND I'LL SHOW YOU.
The Toyota documents at techinfo.toyota.com certainly indicate Toyota has put the Ford patent to use.
#34
12-16-2008, 06:59 PM
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Re: 88,000 miles on a used FEH. Good or bad idea?
****, I detest having to do that..!!
#35
12-16-2008, 07:19 PM
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Re: 88,000 miles on a used FEH. Good or bad idea?
Do you suppose that Ford filed, applied for, and was granted a US patent on the hybrid design regarding reduced regenerative braking capability in cold climates, and the disabling of same upon ABS activation, only to have an "in kind" patent to trade under the cross licensing agreement with Toyota...??
I can only tell you how a 2005 FEH works.
Did you know that 99% of all patents are never put to real world use?
They are only filed to protect "ideas".
I would like to add that not all ideas are good, or required for safe driving.
Perhaps they "thought" about doing that, then real world proved it was unneccesary to implement.
#36
12-17-2008, 05:45 AM
Re: 88,000 miles on a used FEH. Good or bad idea?
http://www.fordvehicles.com/2010Fusion/
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/12...on-the-street/
#37
12-17-2008, 10:02 AM
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Re: 88,000 miles on a used FEH. Good or bad idea?
Oh, those MPG numbers are from Ford predictions, on a pre-production prototype yet, actual EPA estimates are not yet available.
Not having to cool the battery via the A/C will be a definite advantage.
As will the use of an electrically driven, non bang-bang (either FULL on or off) pump volume variable A/C compressor.
If the Fusion engine's VIVT(??), variable intake valve timing is what I think it might be this may prove to be a real technological breakthrough. The Atkinson engine's pumping losses, remaining losses vs Otto, could be dramatically reduced via the use of varying the intake valve timing as a substitute for a fully functioning throttle plate.
Leave the intake valve open for ~85(??) of the 90 degrees of the piston compression stroke and you can idle the engine without a throttle plate.
Not having to cool the battery via the A/C will be a definite advantage.
As will the use of an electrically driven, non bang-bang (either FULL on or off) pump volume variable A/C compressor.
If the Fusion engine's VIVT(??), variable intake valve timing is what I think it might be this may prove to be a real technological breakthrough. The Atkinson engine's pumping losses, remaining losses vs Otto, could be dramatically reduced via the use of varying the intake valve timing as a substitute for a fully functioning throttle plate.
Leave the intake valve open for ~85(??) of the 90 degrees of the piston compression stroke and you can idle the engine without a throttle plate.
#38
12-17-2008, 10:21 AM
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Re: 88,000 miles on a used FEH. Good or bad idea?
I have no information one way or the other on that theory.
No, I'm betting that without you're doing any research on the matter at all, you can come to an understanding, based on your own personal experience and/or knowledge, why the patent WAS put into use.
Let's say you're driven along in a stick shift FWD at night, a VERY cold night. Normally you might not hesitate to be "sporty", downshift the gearbox and use engine compression braking, even a substantial level of, for slowing the vehicle, keeping it within the speed limit on a downhill section of the roadbed.
And even were you to be that stupid, forgetful, senior moment, the clutch pedal is right there as a quick release backup.
Now put yourself in the FWD FEH with a mostly discharged hybrid battery..
Would you really want the FEH's regen system to go into, inadvertently go into, "FAST" recharge mode, MAXIMUM "coastdown" (throttle lift) in this circumstance..??
Not me, and I suspect not Ford.
I can only tell you how a 2005 FEH works.
I rather sincerely doubt that..
Did you know that 99% of all patents are never put to real world use?
They are only filed to protect "ideas".
Along with collecting license fees, making MONEY, sometimes TONS of money,
I would like to add that not all ideas are good, or required for safe driving.
Perhaps they "thought" about doing that, then real world proved it was unneccesary to implement.
No, I'm betting that without you're doing any research on the matter at all, you can come to an understanding, based on your own personal experience and/or knowledge, why the patent WAS put into use.
Let's say you're driven along in a stick shift FWD at night, a VERY cold night. Normally you might not hesitate to be "sporty", downshift the gearbox and use engine compression braking, even a substantial level of, for slowing the vehicle, keeping it within the speed limit on a downhill section of the roadbed.
And even were you to be that stupid, forgetful, senior moment, the clutch pedal is right there as a quick release backup.
Now put yourself in the FWD FEH with a mostly discharged hybrid battery..
Would you really want the FEH's regen system to go into, inadvertently go into, "FAST" recharge mode, MAXIMUM "coastdown" (throttle lift) in this circumstance..??
Not me, and I suspect not Ford.
I can only tell you how a 2005 FEH works.
I rather sincerely doubt that..
Did you know that 99% of all patents are never put to real world use?
They are only filed to protect "ideas".
Along with collecting license fees, making MONEY, sometimes TONS of money,
I would like to add that not all ideas are good, or required for safe driving.
Perhaps they "thought" about doing that, then real world proved it was unneccesary to implement.
And what about a patent that involves disabling ABS unless/until VSC detects the need..??
Last edited by wwest; 12-17-2008 at 10:25 AM.
#39
12-17-2008, 08:17 PM
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Re: 88,000 miles on a used FEH. Good or bad idea?
Willard-
The eCVT in a FEH is NOTHING like a manual transmission. AT ALL.
All the gears in the FEH are always in mesh, all the time. ALL THE TIME.
The gears are in mesh even in "simulated neutral".
The car is towed with the gears in mesh, because it does no harm.
Both motors in the eCVT can spin 12,000 RPM without harm.
That is their design spec. Too bad, the Prius has a much lower RPM limitation, so the Prius cannot be towed with 4 wheels on the ground.
The FEH can.
The transition from torque output to the wheels, to torque input to the motor for electicity generation is so smooth, there is little, if any chance of wheel slip, even in snow and ice.
Yes, if wheel slip is detected, then, and only then, is regen disabled.
There is no "predictive" or "preventative" programming in the car.
The car reacts, just as it should.
What you describe is, dare I say, ridiculous.
You want the car to cripple itself, and it's capability just because it is cold outside? What a stupid idea. No good engineer would do such a thing, and I'm glad such a system does not exsist in the Ford Escape Hybrid. Too bad for Prius owners if they loose regen simply because it is cold. I've not driven a Prius below about 40 degrees, so I can't speak to that one way or the other.
Sounds like the Ford transmission is leaps and bounds better than the Prius, based on your comments. I've driven a 2008 Prius for 1 week and 1000 miles when I used one for a rental.... and I must say, the Ford feels much smoother and "robust" than the Prius. Probably why the FEH does not need to disable regen based on out-side air temperature.
The eCVT in a FEH is NOTHING like a manual transmission. AT ALL.
All the gears in the FEH are always in mesh, all the time. ALL THE TIME.
The gears are in mesh even in "simulated neutral".
The car is towed with the gears in mesh, because it does no harm.
Both motors in the eCVT can spin 12,000 RPM without harm.
That is their design spec. Too bad, the Prius has a much lower RPM limitation, so the Prius cannot be towed with 4 wheels on the ground.
The FEH can.
The transition from torque output to the wheels, to torque input to the motor for electicity generation is so smooth, there is little, if any chance of wheel slip, even in snow and ice.
Yes, if wheel slip is detected, then, and only then, is regen disabled.
There is no "predictive" or "preventative" programming in the car.
The car reacts, just as it should.
What you describe is, dare I say, ridiculous.
You want the car to cripple itself, and it's capability just because it is cold outside? What a stupid idea. No good engineer would do such a thing, and I'm glad such a system does not exsist in the Ford Escape Hybrid. Too bad for Prius owners if they loose regen simply because it is cold. I've not driven a Prius below about 40 degrees, so I can't speak to that one way or the other.
Sounds like the Ford transmission is leaps and bounds better than the Prius, based on your comments. I've driven a 2008 Prius for 1 week and 1000 miles when I used one for a rental.... and I must say, the Ford feels much smoother and "robust" than the Prius. Probably why the FEH does not need to disable regen based on out-side air temperature.
#40
12-18-2008, 12:13 AM
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Re: 88,000 miles on a used FEH. Good or bad idea?
Willard-
The eCVT in a FEH is NOTHING like a manual transmission. AT ALL.
All the gears in the FEH are always in mesh, all the time. ALL THE TIME.
You're preaching to the choir...
The gears are in mesh even in "simulated neutral".
The car is towed with the gears in mesh, because it does no harm.
Well, it would do harm were it not for the electric clutch used by Ford to disconnect the drive system from the driveline with the ingnition switched off, or via the inertial switch should you get rear-ended.
MG1 & MG2 are both permanent magnet rotor A/C motor/generators. Force the vehicle forward rapidly with the key off and the resulting voltage spike would KILL the electronics.
both motors in the eCVT can spin 12,000 RPM without harm.
That is their design spec. Too bad, the Prius has a much lower RPM limitation, so the Prius cannot be towed with 4 wheels on the ground.
The FEH can.
But only because the electric clutch is not engaged with the drive off.
The transition from torque output to the wheels, to torque input to the motor for electicity generation is so smooth, there is little, if any chance of wheel slip, even in snow and ice.
I don't know about you, but I long ago learned how to "feather" the throttle to the level of just barely keeping traction at the drive wheels, enough to move forward, but not enough to break traction.
But IMMHO there is no way to do that absent trial and error.
Yes, if wheel slip is detected, then, and only then, is regen disabled.
There is no "predictive" or "preventative" programming in the car.
And you "know" this, how...??
Reference material..??
The car reacts, just as it should.
What you describe is, dare I say, ridiculous.
You want the car to cripple itself, and it's capability just because it is cold outside? What a stupid idea. No good engineer would do such a thing, and I'm glad such a system does not exsist in the Ford Escape Hybrid.
Better the FEH/MMH/tribute regen system get crippled rather than me..., or you.
Too bad for Prius owners if they loose regen simply because it is cold. I've not driven a Prius below about 40 degrees, so I can't speak to that one way or the other.
Sounds like the Ford transmission is leaps and bounds better than the Prius, based on your comments. I've driven a 2008 Prius for 1 week and 1000 miles when I used one for a rental.... and I must say, the Ford feels much smoother and "robust" than the Prius. Probably why the FEH does not need to disable regen based on out-side air temperature.
The eCVT in a FEH is NOTHING like a manual transmission. AT ALL.
All the gears in the FEH are always in mesh, all the time. ALL THE TIME.
You're preaching to the choir...
The gears are in mesh even in "simulated neutral".
The car is towed with the gears in mesh, because it does no harm.
Well, it would do harm were it not for the electric clutch used by Ford to disconnect the drive system from the driveline with the ingnition switched off, or via the inertial switch should you get rear-ended.
MG1 & MG2 are both permanent magnet rotor A/C motor/generators. Force the vehicle forward rapidly with the key off and the resulting voltage spike would KILL the electronics.
both motors in the eCVT can spin 12,000 RPM without harm.
That is their design spec. Too bad, the Prius has a much lower RPM limitation, so the Prius cannot be towed with 4 wheels on the ground.
The FEH can.
But only because the electric clutch is not engaged with the drive off.
The transition from torque output to the wheels, to torque input to the motor for electicity generation is so smooth, there is little, if any chance of wheel slip, even in snow and ice.
I don't know about you, but I long ago learned how to "feather" the throttle to the level of just barely keeping traction at the drive wheels, enough to move forward, but not enough to break traction.
But IMMHO there is no way to do that absent trial and error.
Yes, if wheel slip is detected, then, and only then, is regen disabled.
There is no "predictive" or "preventative" programming in the car.
And you "know" this, how...??
Reference material..??
The car reacts, just as it should.
What you describe is, dare I say, ridiculous.
You want the car to cripple itself, and it's capability just because it is cold outside? What a stupid idea. No good engineer would do such a thing, and I'm glad such a system does not exsist in the Ford Escape Hybrid.
Better the FEH/MMH/tribute regen system get crippled rather than me..., or you.
Too bad for Prius owners if they loose regen simply because it is cold. I've not driven a Prius below about 40 degrees, so I can't speak to that one way or the other.
Sounds like the Ford transmission is leaps and bounds better than the Prius, based on your comments. I've driven a 2008 Prius for 1 week and 1000 miles when I used one for a rental.... and I must say, the Ford feels much smoother and "robust" than the Prius. Probably why the FEH does not need to disable regen based on out-side air temperature.
Well, yes, heavier often means smoother, and we all know heavier means a more "robust" drive train.
Again, I have NEVER said regen is DISABLED due to OAT, only significantly reduced in capability.
