ecvt cooler
 

i purchased an aftermarket tranny cooler to install on my 2008 Ford Escape Hybrid AWD i also installed a hitch because im planning on towing, after spending 3 days under the SUV i realized the the cooling from the electric engine is what also cools the transmission fluid. i aim currently working on developing a cooling system for my :lightbulb ecvt fluid and hoping this system can work on all cvts. i plan on incorporating a switch to decide when to run the system;) or a thermostat switch. my trip is in a month and hopefully i can install it and do some test runs and heat measurements before my 1800 mile trip, hauling a 6x12 uhaul.

If i get good results would anyone be interested on something like this?

Re: ecvt cooler
 

Are there any reports of Escape Hybrid eCVT's failing from overheating? Do they fail much from anything at all?

Re: ecvt cooler
 

i dont think so, but because im driving with over towing limit i was thinking maybe cooling the trans would prevent that. and other people think that they need coolers on thier trannys based on thier location like las vegas

Re: ecvt cooler
 

Posts of towing or hauling over limits are common in this forum with no problems after doing so.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

thanks bill,:D

do u happen to know whats the most anyone has towed and for how long? or a link? id greatly appreciate it. i cant seem to find anything besides pictures.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

Basically you're trying to address problem you're not sure exists using a 'solution' that is designed for conventional fluid cooled transmissions (which an e-CVT is not). Let's hope that the negatives cancel out the negatives for you!

A bigger problem for towing big loads is trying to maintain highway speed with a ~150hp engine pulling the the 5000# weight of a loaded 4WD FEH plus whatever your trailer weighs. From experience an FEH doesn't get very good MPG if you have to rev it up past 4000rpm all the time.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

what do u meant by negatives cancel negatives?

Re: ecvt cooler
 

Use the Search function, enter "tow hitch" and select "Ford Escape Hybrid" section.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

You are using a transmission cooler designed for a vehicle with a conventional automatic transmission with clutch packs and a torque convertor with a CVT transmission that uses an entirely different technology. That is one issue that he is talking about. The other is that you are using a vehicle designed for fuel economy as a tow vehicle. Ford placed the limits that it did to make sure that nothing is damaged while towing and that your Escape can safely move the load up inclines and, more importantly, STOP that load safely.

Yes, there are plenty of people that have towed heavy loads with an Escape Hybrid and nothing happened. If you are involved in a wreck however and your vehicles towing capacity or braking ability is called into question and you are over the limit, guess what is going to happen.....

I know of guys that tow 20,000 pound trailers with a Ford F-250 single rear wheel truck that are WAY over the allowed limits on towing. I also know of 2 that have wrecked because of it. Your money, your choices in life.

I tow a 15,000 pound 5th wheel with a diesel Ford F-350 Dually and still don't feel safe on long downgrades if something happens and the trailer brakes fail. That is the reason I'm thinking of moving up to a medium duty truck that can stop the rig by itself. By the way, I'm rated to tow a 21,600 pound 5th wheel but I prefer to stay on the "save my hide" side of the ledger.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

This has been discussed here before and there are no limits(laws) for towing placed on non-commercial vehicles.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

^^^^^BAD INFORMATION ALERT^^^^^^

Ford's maximum rated tow capacity is 1,000 pounds for a 2008 FEH. This thread is not about legal limits but rather what the vehicle is designed to safely tow.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

Hey, legal dude! Read the post prior to my post where "allowed limits" is used. Read almost every thread when some asked about installing a tow hitch. Every time it's a Class Rating higher the it's supposed to be.

If that's what this thread is really about, you mean the OP can't read the Owner's Manual??

I've preached about following Ford's suggested towing/hauling limits way back and was pretty much laughed at, nobody pays much attention to that.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

u have a link

Re: ecvt cooler
 

Sorry as that was probably two years ago if not longer. All I remember was most said those were just suggested limits and the FEH could handle more without damage and there aren't any laws pertaining to personal towing.

I know that back then even Uhaul's Select a Hitch page didn't ask what engine the FE was using!

Re: ecvt cooler
 

Bill,

You would be surprised at the number of people that don't know what their GVWR is (or stands for) GCWR, maximum axle weight or anything else is. They fail to understand that the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating is the total of the vehicle, gas load, occupants, cargo (everything that is in the vehicle) plus the hitch weight of the trailer. Add to that the maximum towing weight of the trailer and all of it's contents and probably 1/3 or more of the people you see on the road with a trailer are over weight.

Yes, the hitch can be bought that is overrated for the tow vehicle. I can take the 2 1/2", class V receiver from my F350 and bolt it to the F150 but that does make that truck a class V tow rig. When pulling an overweight for the vehicle bumper pull (receiver hitch or similar, not a 5th wheel), you can rapidly get into a "tail wagging the dog" situation that can cause a wreck before you know it.

I would STRONGLY suggest to anyone that they follow the owners manual as far as the maximums on vehicle weight and towing are concerned. The life you save might be mine.....

As far as towing limits are concerned, you are right. In a LOT of states, I can drive an 18 wheeler pulling a 5th wheel with a boat trailer behind that on a regular drivers license. Some states will require that tractor to be de-rated to a class 6 or 7 by removing one of the rear axles, others will require some add-ons (microwave, porta potty, AC inverter) to be classed as a "motor home".

Just think about that the next time you see one of us "old farts" cruising by with our RV.....

Re: ecvt cooler
 

I read it, which is why I qualified my post. The regulars realize you frequently give out really bad information, the newbies might not.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

There aren't any laws against being stupid!

Re: ecvt cooler
 

Either you didn't understand it correctly or that's not the issue. I think the real issue is that I don't own a FEH and your one of several that doesn't like that.

A thread was actually started to ban one a user because they didn't like his posts plus not owning a FEH.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

I think that you are fixing a problem that doesn't exist. The eCVT is much more similar to a manual transmission with respect to the heat generated internally. In a conventional automatic transmission, the heat is generated within the torque converter when the fluid is compressed and placed under shear. The eCVT has no torque converter.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

YOU ARE TRYING TO FIX A "PROBLEM" that DOES NOT EXIST.
I have more experience with towing than anyone who has ever posted.
I have towed more weight than anyone who has ever posted, with a 2005 FWD FEH.

I have made a poor choice and literally found the limits.
Remember the gas engine, the primary motive power at highway speed is only about 125 HP.
The extra 25-30 HP comes from battery boost. Gone, when the small amp-hour battery pack is depleted.

The primary motive power under 25 mph is the electric traction motor. 26 to 93 HP max. (usually not at the max.)
THE GAS ENGINE DOES NOT TURN THE WHEELS AT SLOW SPEEDS.

The hybrid system is a trade off, a teeter totter, a see saw with electric power at one end and Gasoline power at the other.
At slow speeds the electric power is at maximum and gasoline power at the minimum.
At high speeds electric power is at minimum and gasoline power is at maximum.

I can tow a 2,500 lb, 9 foot tall, 7 foot wide "box" trailer (with electric brakes and eletronic brake controller installed... so the FEH does not really "feel" the trailer at all when braking if properly adjusted) just fine on level ground. Hit a grade over 2% and battery boost kicks in... for all of one mile.

Hills greater than 7% and longer than a mile and my FEH comes to a halt. Really.
Then I have to pull onto the shoulder and idle for 5 minutes to recharge the battery. Then go another 1 mile, repeat. Did this 3 times on a 7% with HEAVY TRAILER and vowed never again.

NOTHING GOT HOT except the electric motors got "warm".
The electric motors pull a lot more amps when towing, and for much more of the drive time.

MOST of the torque for pulling comes from the electric motors.
We have a specifically degined LOW TORQUE gasoline engine made for higher MPG.

Also something no one realizes... THERE IS NO LOW GEAR IN THESE HYBRIDS!
There is psudo low for braking and slowing down.
There is no low gear for pulling heavy things up a steep grade!

I know what you are thinking... but you are WRONG IN THIS CASE.

You are probably saying of course there is a low gear ratio in the continuously variable transmission.... right? Yes and no... and MOSTLY NO!

The ICE only puts torque to the wheels at high road speeds. (25 mph+).
When you are traveling 0-25 mph, no matter what the engine rpm is, it is applying torque to a generator, making electricity, and that electricity goes into a traction motor (often along with battery boost at the same time) and the traction motor only or primarily moves the wheels.

The traction motor is rated at 93 HP. This is what you have to pull your trailer at zero to 25 mph. BUT..... IT is usually impossible to get that much electricty to the traction motor.

The traction motor is 93 HP... but the generator feeding it (indefinately as long as you have gasoline) is only 26 HP!

Have no fear pulling away from stops,... the battery pack can chip in the balance of the wattage to make up for the missing 67 horsepower for as long as it is charged.... ONE MILE BEST CASE... OFTEN LESS!

On that steep prolonged grade with slower speed limits and sharp curves my battery depleted quickly... once my speed dropped below 25 mph, with no battery wattage left, I was down to 26 horsepower and rapidly came to a halt.

You simply CAN NOT put torque to the wheels from the gas engine at slow speeds with a hybrid with planetary gear set. Its mechanically impossible and has nothing to do with programmimg.

Still nothing got hot, but motors ran warm within limits...

This is a hard concept to grasp.
Ask if you have specific questions or if something isn't clear and I'll try to explain in other ways.

In short, Ford rated the towing at 1,000 pounds because you can be confident it will pull that over any roads suitable for a trailer.

2500-3000 pounds is possible ONLY IF you will be in flat or nearly flat towing conditions.
You won't break anything (99% sure).
You won't overheat anything (99% sure).

You will run out of power on grades of more than a couple percent. (100% sure)

After my failure to pull 2500 pounds up 7% I purchased a Duramax Diesel truck to tow that will tow my 7200 pound trailer up 7% on cruise control in top (6th) gear.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

ok, thanks for the advice

Re: ecvt cooler
 

Great post. This is first I've read of anyone pushing the FEH to its maximum limit. I pull a 1500# travel trailer, mostly on flat ground and it is more than fine, but it is good to know what the extreme is.


Can you relate your experience with respect to engine braking with a heavy trailer and a steep grade?

Re: ecvt cooler
 

I will say it is ILLEGAL to tow over 1000 pounds with any vehicle WITHOUT trailer brakes.

You NEED trailer brakes for anything larger than a jet ski with a hybrid.

The engine is specifically low compression and lower torque than a "normal" engine for optimized MPG.

THERE IS NEARLY ZERO ENGINE BRAKE ABILITY WITH THE FEH...

Electric dynamo (regenerative) braking is well, strong... using the larger 93 HP motor as a generator... making electricity slows you tremendously... if that electricity has some place to go. So for half to one mile going downhill you can dump about 20kw (26 brake HP) into the battery pack...

After that period, you can dump some amount of kw from the "wheels" generator into the smaller starter generator, making the smaller generator a motor, and that motor turns the engine at 4000 rpm without fuel... basically wasting some energy to slow you.
But the engine is so eficient and low compression it does not put up much resistance.

And the slower your speed, the less the resistance effect...
Under 25 mph you have almost zero engine brake effect.

USE TRAILER BRAKES AND ADJUST THEM TO JUST BARELY NOT LOCK UP!

In my super duty truck, pulling a light trailer, I can safely adjust the trailer brakes to assisit in panic stops only, to save wear on the trailer. You dont have that wiggle room with a FEH. It has trouble stopping itself on steep grades.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

Thanks. I have 10" electric brakes on my trailer. I was just curious as to what sequence the FEH goes through to simulate compression braking.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

Excellent information. I run into a situation similar to trailer towing, while descending mountain roads with 3000-4000 vertical feet of elevation loss in 5-10 miles. At the start of the descents, "engine" braking is available in the form of regeneration. But soon the battery is full to the controlled capacity, and the FEH is then mostly dependent on the friction brakes.

The use of "D" or "L" involves some consideration. The important difference is that, on the '09 FEH at least, the engine will almost always be engaged in "L", while it is free to shut off and go into ev mode if the conditions are right and it's in "D".

For a descent that will not fill up the battery, it's best to just leave it in "D" and use the brake pedal. This will maximize the energy stored which is then available for boost on more level or uphill ground. If it's below the EV speed, the engine will be off (unless it's needed to heat the exhaust system etc).

But for an "engine" braking descent that will exceed the battery capacity, it's better to have it in "L". Having it in L engages the gas motor, and even though it won't be using gas (usually) since you're off the throttle, having all the engine parts flailing around will help slow the vehicle. Put another way, having it in "L" delays filling up the hybrid battery, and so either preserves storage capacity, or leaves less braking to be done with the friction brakes.

However, as gpsman1 said, the slower you go the less "engine" braking is available, whether or not the battery is full. So on our descents, we just end up on the friction brakes. The faster the descent, the less time the friction brakes have to dissipate the resulting heat. Fortunately on these backroads we can go down as slow as we need to, to allow the brakes time to remain relatively cool.

This is similar to when we did this mountain travel with a heavily loaded '79 Chev Impala station wagon. With only a 3-spd automatic, it had virtually no engine braking at slow speeds. So we used to have to stop for half an hour partway down descents to let the brakes cool off.

For the FEH at highway speeds, wind resistance, plus regeneration, plus "engine" braking usually suffice. But a heavy trailer with no brakes of its own, on a long steep grade could result in a "runaway train" situation.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

what have you towed?

Re: ecvt cooler
 

Well, I can tell that John (gpsman1) has pulled a few miles. I tow a 16,000 pound 5th wheel with a F350 dually that has 400 HP and 800 ft-lbs of torque. That engine uses a turbo compression brake that engages on long descents but even that setup is "iffy" on long downgrades here in the Smokies and out west in the Rockies.

We are looking to get a 20,500 pound trailer and I have started looking for a Freightliner M2-122 medium duty truck. The one I am hunting for has a Detroit Diesel DD13 with 450 HP and 1,450 ft-lbs of torque. After pulling for years, like John, you figure out that torque counts when pulling and the FEH does NOT have the capacity to pull a heavy trailer safely.

Even more important than getting a load moving is STOPPING IT. That is why my dually is getting sold. I have the gain set to max out (10.0) on my trailer and use them on long downgrades as well as the engine compression brakes and reserve the truck brakes for an emergency but I have had one too many close calls even then. The new truck will have a Jacobs brake switched from the dash and with a 13 liter engine, I will be able to use the engine alone on steep downgrades to keep everything under control.

That is why I said what I did about safety and the life you save might be mine. Rent a U-Haul truck, put your stuff inside and rent a trailer to TOW your FEH to where you are going. Their large trucks are designed to safely haul a load and tow a small vehicle like your FEH without any problems

If someone wants to kill themselves by towing in a dangerous way, fine, go ahead but they can't control what happens when things get out of shape on a tow vehicle and then they can hurt someone else and THAT is where I have a problem.

Tow smart, tow safe and make it home with everyone in one piece.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

Nothing. The important point is that the FEH can stress the brake capacity on long steep downgrades even without towing anything.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39151.

OMG MUST READ THIS

Re: ecvt cooler
 

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39151.

OMG MUST READ THIS

Re: ecvt cooler
 

That guy just proves that Heinlein was correct.....Never underestimate the power of human stupidity...

By the way, the replacement for my F350 Dually will be coming home with me from Texas next week. Freightliner M2-112, with a wee little diesel engine in it. Just 13 liters with 450 HP and 1650 Ft-Lbs of torque. Even more important is the 3 stage Jake brake with 505 Braking HP to keep things under control on long downgrades.

Attachment 2538

No, it's not a hybrid (even though Freightliner does offer them in the smaller chassis) but it does a LOT of work for the fuel it burns and is spec'ed out to pull anything shy of a class 8 tractor load.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

So regarding "the other guy" I'm worried most about him breaking the trailer, not the FEH!

6,000 to 8,000 lbs on a one axle, $1000 lawnmower trailer? Without brakes?!
Sheesh.

If truck plus trailer exceeds 26,000 lbs you must have a CDL for your Freightliner.
What ya pulling with it, big camper? Work use also?

Yes, MPG only goes down slightly from a large Pick-up Truck (15 mpg) to a Freightliner (7.5 mpg).

MPG only goes down slightly again going from a Freightliner to a train locomotive (1 MPG) and then less so to a cargo ship, making shipping the cheapest cost per mile per ton of goods.

Re: ecvt cooler
 

John,

More than likely that guy has a 1500# or 2000# axle under that trailer and I worry about people like him killing someone else when it breaks loose.

As for mine, yes, it's a class 7 and requires a special license although in Georgia we have a class "E" license (same tests as a class "A") that is a non commercial license. It covers air brakes and everything else required for a CDL except private use only with no hazardous material or multi trailer endorsement. The truck is also registered as a private vehicle. The wife is going to order a new 5th wheel trailer and it will scale right at 22K and the truck is around 16K before the 190 gallons of diesel go on board. Talk about sticker shock.....

Never mind the 42 quart oil change......