Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Two occurrences within the past week on a 35K miles, 2008 MMH. 38 months of use. All original electrical components and a Scan Guage II for 37 of those months.

Upon opening the drivers door, inserting the key I was greeted with a cacaphony of relays clicking, the only display being the air bag warning flickering at 50-60 hz, and everything else electrical, (and I tried almost all of the electrical/audio/nav components) was dead. Car had been sitting in the parking lot while I played 18 holes for about 4.5 hrs.

I disconnected the positive lead to the low voltage battery and left it for a few minutes, reconnected it and all was back to normal.

Same story three days later.

The only other new technical situation that is now occurring is that the Scan Guage screen now goes blank 12 seconds after the car goes into EV mode. ( I did not notice whether the Scan Guage screen was reacting to the relay chatter during the two failure events).

Anyone know what fuse covers the 12v supply to the OBD connector?

Any ideas on the basic issue? I did run the car up to the local Ford Dealer yesterday afternoon and the low voltage battery is fine. And just for grins, I replaced the battery in my key fob today.

Thanks,
John Dixson

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Your SG needs to be set for a hybrid vehicle to stay on in EV mode. Maybe you lost that setting when you disconnected your 12v battery?

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Hi John

Make sure all grounds are clean and tight. The SGII is going to sleep and that means it went back to the default settings. Go to set-up and make sure your Type of Fuel is set for Hybrid.

GaryG

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Your comment made perfect sense, and that side issue is resolved.

Many thanks,
John Dixson

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Well, thanks to you gentlemen the Scan Guage is back to normal, leaving the cause of the two start problems a mystery. The scan guage attachment to the OBD connector was clean and firm and the pins are all like new, so no short there. Battery connections are like new, and other than two rear blend door actuator replacements two years ago, only the scheduled maintenance has been performed. BTW the Scan Guage reported no codes.

I do have a forward blend door problem that has been discussed in this forum, but am waiting for my next scheduled maintenance to have that TSB completed. Parts are available. But I don't see any connection possible between that sort of failure and an electrical shutdown as I described. Anyone know what happens when the PATS system gets activated?

Thanks,
John Dixson

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Per John's comment, are your 12v battery connections shiny and clean?

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Yes they are, and the local Ford guys did a battery test and it looked fine.

Thanks for the follow-up
John Dixson

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

That would only be a start for checking ground connections. Since the problem was wide spread on electrical components, next I'd clean and tighten the ground wires to the PCM and engine. I've read so many horror stories about replacing very expensive brake and steering parts only to find out it was a loose ground like this new post here:

"After replacing the rack and a month later the control modular. We found it to be a loose ground."- Just posted at Hybridcars.com

GaryG

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

My experience in the helicopter business says you may well be correct, Gary.

I think I'll get the dealer involved in that activity.

Thanks,
John Dixson

BTW, it happened again as I was getting set to go out earlier this evening. This time, the failure, relay chatter and flickering airbag warning symbol occurred just as the key was advanced to the full in position and before I turned it. When I turned it, the airbag warning disappeared and the red battery warning symbol in the upper left part of the display showed up, steady-no flicker. Gets curiouser and curiouser.

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Just for comparison, on a '09 FE, the electrical diagrams have nine pages showing twenty-two main ground points but that's not counting the all tie points before the mains.

All the interior located module main grounds are inside the vehicle. Two are under the driver's seat on the floor and the other two are on the passenger side under the kick panel just infront of the door. Even though I'm looking at a non-Hybrid manual, it's probably the same.

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Another little shred that resulted from an idea I had last night:

You know how, when you enter the car, your right foot nudges the brake pedal, which kicks off what sounds like a small pump ( I've assumed that what I was listening to was a small pump recharging a brake accumulator ).

Well I purposefully nudged that brake pedal this AM after the car sat overnight, and what I got was interesting: no pump sound, but instead a dull thumping sound at about .75 to 1 Hz. Opened up the hood and tracked the sound to the ABS module, which was undergoing some small sort of steady frequency pressure surge.

Once again, cycling the low voltage battery positive lead off and then on got rid of this pulsing and the car started fine, albeit with an ABS light that took 10 seconds or so to extinguish. ( Note: zero ABS or brake problems/warnings etc since new )

Thanks,
John Dixson

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

It's possessed!:)

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

did it throw any codes?

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

No codes were reported by my Scan Guage.

That brings up a question for the community: has anyone experienced any sort of unusual electronic behavior traceable to the Scan Guage connection to the OBD system?

While I have confirmed visually that the connection is free of bent pins and is clean, what I have not done is to disconnect the Scan Guage while this problem is occurring. I dropped the car off at a dealer this AM and they plan to do that, assuming the problem will appear after the vehicle sits for a number of hours.

This morning I tried nudging the brake pedal again as the first action upon entering the car ( key not inserted ), and once again triggered the ABS system trying unsuccessfully to come on. At that point I got out and measured the low voltage battery voltage ( was 12.3 V before entering the car ) and this was down to 10.0V. Got back in the seat , inserted the key and this started the relay chatter etc. Got out and now the battery voltage was 6.5V. Disconnected the positive terminal ( voltage back to normal ) waited two minutes, reconnected the positive terminal and the system, and the car, started normally.

As to the car being " possessed ", I know that the local magnetic variation is stable and other than that, as long as Tiger Woods keeps paying his $440K real estate taxes on time, we'll be OK here in Hobe Sound, Florida!

Thanks,
John Dixson

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

If you don't find any obvious faults, my suggestion is to take it to a dealer. The blinking ABS light and relays are likely intentional. Ford has always had weird behavior in the electrical systems to indicate some kind of fault or short. With the electronics on the FEH, I wouldn't take any chances.

I remember a long time ago I had a Fairmont. One day the blinker systems went strange, sort of staying on too long, and the dash lights were odd. I took it to a dealer. Turns out that one of my brake bulbs was out - Ford had programmed the strange behavior so that the owner would take it in and get the bulb replaced...

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Its there.

Service Mgr just called up to report that 27 codes were found ( my Scan Guage showed zero codes by the way ), but all were resultants, not causes. The cause of the mess turns out to be one of the cells in the low voltage battery.

What he said. I admit to being more than a bit skeptical at the moment, and will enter a conversation with the Serv. Mgr when I go to pick the car up, as all thru this saga, the Electric Energy OK message was reported by the normal car diagnostics, and I looked over the shoulder of the two individuals who hooked the battery tester to this battery last Friday afternoon, following the second occurrence.

A bit disappointed re the absence of Scan Guage codes. Anything I might do with the programming to address this point?

Thanks,
John Dixson

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

I think the "Electric Energy" check is referring to the traction battery, not the 12v.

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

The Scan Guage will show generic DTCs although it "can" read "some" others but must be programmed to do so. You have to know memory addresses of modules and figure out how to manipulate the data too. Ford stopped putting memory adresses in the PC/ED manuals in 2006. Ford has made some changes in their PCMs also. The person that did all the work on the programming of the SG listed on the SG site was a member here(DesertDog) was ran out of town by a few KnowItAlls.

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Bill's right about the generic codes and the SGII can be programmed to do just about anything Ford's computers and scanners can do on our hybrids. I think it was the 2009 PC/ED manuals that left out the needed information and Ford changed the type of PCM on the '09. Desertdog still lives in Phoenix AZ but he post as CarlD on http://www.cleanmpg.com/ if anyone needs to ask him a question, just join the site first. Carl has posted how to program the SGII to retrieve information from the FEH hybrid modules and here is one of his threads:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21291

When I went up to the 2007 MPG Challenge, Carl ask me to pass along SoC programming information to the SGII inventor who also works in Phoenix near Carl. I got them together and Carl has provided much more information about programming the SGII for our FEH than any of us ever expected. Many of Carl's programming still works fine in my '09 FEH, but Ford left out much of the newer changes starting in '09 when the engine and PCM changed. The '09 was given the first Black Box so to speak and they didn't want people like Carl playing with the recorded data I guess.

BTW, the person that ran Carl off this board is not allowed to post (banned) on Cleanmpg anymore.

GaryG

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

I have access to all manuals and it was for sure starting with the '07 PC/ED manuals where the info was left out.

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

You could be right about that Bill, but not much changed as far as the design in the '05 - '07 FEH. The '08 had a body change and the Battery heater cable was deleted. Also, I think the programming did change in the '08 to read eCVT temperature or something.

GaryG

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

The was and still may be a issue with flat towing a FE starting with '09 or the new 6F35 transaxle, so people were looking for a way to monitor temperature. All the listed memory location(s) have been tried, even with help from DesertDog(CarlD) and none worked on the SG.

There was a PCM change in '09 for the FE but I'm not sure if that was for the FEH also. I tried a SCT engine tuner in early '09, wouldn't even connect. I asked the dealer late in '09 and nothing had changed. It'll work on a '10 Mustang but not the FE. The same goes for a DashDAQ. Just like high end consumer OBD-II scanners, they'll read only generic DTCs.

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Appreciate the info re accessing trouble codes. Just an opinion, but if Linear Logic advertises a function, one would think it would be a top level available piece of information?

Anyhow, here is what the local Ford Service Mgr had to report when I picked up my good-as-new Mariner:

The car electrical system goes into sleep mode 45 minutes after shutdown. In sleep mode, the tolerance on battery voltage ( low voltage battery ) is tighter. Hence, with a failing cell, the system wouldn't allow the battery online when the key was entered ( or I nudged the brake pedal ) when entering the car after a protracted sleep period. But that "protection" ( Svc Mgr's words ) isn't there in non-sleep mode, hence the car would start after I cycled the battery cable connection off-on.

The logic of this analysis hangs together but leaves some open design intent questions which he couldn't address. And of course, there is no clue in the Operators Manual that, in this situation, with a partial battery failure and a car that won't start, there is an easy short term solution at hand that will allow getting the car safely going. Since the software apparently knew enough to not let the battery online, wouldn't it be possible to at least light only the battery warning symbol?

Anyone know the email address of the Escape Hybrid customer service tech people?

Thanks,
John Dixson

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

In Post #16, you stated that they tested the battery which "should" have detected a weak cell.

You can call Customer Service but there isn't a number for "us" to reach "any" service tech people. Any technical questions and you'll be refered to your dealer, I know as I've tried in the past.

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Glad you picked up on the battery test, because there is a point to be made here:

On Friday past when I stopped in and they did a battery test, it was done with a hand-held tester which then, after a 1 minute test, printed out directly to another hand-held small printer. This was done immediately as I drove in, probably within 5 minutes after shutdown.

The battery test accomplished on Monday took them 40 minutes and utilized a larger test apparatus ( was not there to witness ). Service Mgr said that the full blown test picked up the one weak cell. This test was done after letting the car sit for 3 1/2 hours after shutdown.

Thanks,
John Dixson

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

The latest handheld battery testers "should" be able to detect a bad/weak cell, if not, what's the point of using it first??

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

I went through a similar issue recently with a battery on my '95 Cobra. The battery was less than 1 year old but would not charge properly. The charge gauge in the cluster was always lower than it had been and if the car sat for more than a week it wouldn't start the car.

I took it to three different auto parts stores (two with the same name) and all but one of them tested the battery and their tester showed it passed. I finally went to a auto parts store that didn't sell that particular battery. Sure enough, their tester showed a problem with the battery, I took a picture of their test results and had to get a regional manager involved before the original sales store would replace the battery.

Since it's been replaced, I've let the car sit for over a month and it starts on the first attempt and the guages are right back where they should be.

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Do you know what the brand name of the testers used? I have a Midtronics conductance type(non-destructive) tester. It does that standard battery test but prompts you for added alternator testing where you hold higher idle speed, add loads, etc.

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

Decided to send a report directly to Ford via regular mail.

In addition to the problem description, I offered two ideas for their future consideration:

1. If the Service Mgr's assessment is correct, and the system, in sleep mode, was smart enough to sense lower than optimal battery voltage, why not illuminate the battery warning symbol?
2. Since quite obviously the battery voltage was sufficient to start the car, should the sleep mode software be modified so that a safely drivable vehicle is not incapacitated?

Thanks,
John Dixson

Re: Electrical Anomaly on Start
 

The meter that reported the battery as bad was and Auto Meter used at an O'Reilly Auto Parts. I only know that because I still have the picture I took on my cell phone.

The meter used at both Advance Auto Parts did not catch the bad battery.

In all three test I remember having to raise the RPM and add headlights/AC to increase the load while the test was running. We also did test on the battery with it out of the car but I don't remember which store/tester that was.