Gillman, I read over your responses to my posts carefully a couple of times, but I cannot find anything new to respond to.

As for your defensive whining and blunted ability to distinguish needs from wants -- that is your problem.

 

I don't mind not getting the employee discount plan. I wouldn't expect it on a hybrid at this point, and I somehow doubt any of the other companies are doing that.

I would like to get a decent APR, though. Right now, that's the real sticking point for me. It means my Jeep Grand Cherokee will be a couple grand cheaper over the next five years (gas + four years of car payments + savings in regular oil changes + tax credit) than the ridiculous 6.9% Ford wants to charge me. Yes, I've checked around. It's impossible to get any lower than 5.25% anywhere, and even that's pushing affordability for me right now. But I've never paid more than 3.9% interest on a vehicle I've bought, and I don't need to now.

Sorry, just venting.

-Augie

 

Hi AugieDB:

___Can you wait a few months? The future Tax credit is worth a bit more then the Tax deduction right now (Tax credit of $2,600 on the 2WD and $1,950 on the 4 vs. a deduction of $2,000), if you can hold out until January - 06. Maybe by that time, “Our Country being Ruin” will offer lower interest rates?

PS: The “Country in Ruin” thing was in response to your other “more political” post and not everybody here is of a particular political persuasion either

___Gillman:___As far as Sdctcher not being a mod is concerned, I do not think he wanted to be a mod at GH? He contributed greatly when he did post but disappeared for a while and began spending his time in the YaHoo - Ford Escape forums IIRC? Remember Jason is at Rice now and has little time to watch over anything here other then basic administration so he needed individuals that hang out more then just a little bit On the other hand, when Sdctcher does post here, it is usually excellent information as was the case with the “Ford Experience” announcement last week. I also believe Sdctcher has some important news in regards to employment with Edmunds coming up although I am not sure exactly what that announcement is or was? Hopefully he will post here with the details ASAP …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

 

Waiting till January is something I had thought about. I'm just afraid that there'll be a run on hybrids on January 2 and I'll miss out on it. It's probably not going to be that bad. But I'll also have to wait 16 months or more to get that credit money back.

On the other hand, if someone could guarantee me that gas prices won't sink below $3.299 for the next five years, the math works out again. =)

-Augie

 

Pravus Prime – Glad someone else is annoyed that the hybrid community here is starting to divide, although my take is a little different. I don’t believe the mid-size hybrid posters are taking a side against the small hybrids; personally I am all for putting people in the most fuel efficient vehicle that fits their requirements. However, some posters like EricGo and Lakedude are definitely against SUV hybrids and any hybrid for that matter that is not rated for 40MPG or better. Even Jason has posted similar beliefs “Once everyone's on hybrid diesel SUVs, what's the next move? THEN downsize them? Yeah, right.” Don’t want to repeat long postings, so for those of you that are interested, check out the discussion at Re: Hybrid car technology takes wrong turn.

To summarize, I believe the way America will realistically change into being less oil dependent is incrementally, not cold turkey as the ideologists would like. I am willing to bet that an overwhelming majority of us that have purchased the FEH did downsize and/or doubled our fuel economy. Some of those doing financial hybrid pay-back calculations fail to take this into account, using only equivalent vehicle such as standard Escape for comparison instead of trade-in vehicle FE. On this subject I posted:
What are the best methods to influence people, who don't need large gas guzzling vehicles, to downsize and buy more fuel efficient vehicle such as a hybrid? A few methods come to mind:
* Have gas prices go up high enough to make people consider downsizing if they don't need it.
* Come out with small hybrid SUVs that offer over twice the fuel efficiency such that many large or mid-size SUV owners will downsize.
* Provide government incentives for hybrids that offset the premium cost.
It just so happens these things are happening simultaneously and the auto manufacturers are getting the message to produce more due to the incredible demand.

Don’t get me wrong, I also oppose using hybrid technology for increasing horsepower and acceleration capability on vehicles instead of providing the most fuel efficient and low polluting vehicle possible. However, I believe that in order to have the greatest effect of reducing America’s oil dependency, the auto makers should produce small hybrid SUVs, pick-up trucks, and minivans that are by nature heavier vehicles such that current technology is not able to provide better than 40MPG rating. If people show their support for hybrid vehicles though, then this will change for the better and technology will be funded to hopefully replace oil fueled vehicles altogether.

Ideologists like EricGo counter that everyone should make a lifestyle change now (reevaluate that our “needs” are actually trivial “wants”) and trade-in for small fuel efficient cars. Sorry, but this is not practical for families like mine that cannot fit everyone including cargo and pets into a small car, let alone tow my sailboat and put my canoe on the roof or carry our bikes. I reply back that this is analogous to asking small car drivers to make a lifestyle change by switching to a motorcycle. Perhaps, if there is interest, we should take this issue to a general post and have a proper debate (hopefully leaving dirty politics and slanderous remarks out of it).

XCEL: “As far as Sdctcher not being a mod is concerned, I do not think he wanted to be a mod at GH?”
Although it seems like I am a GH newbie with <30 posts, I have been lurking daily for months and only post-in when I feel I can contribute something new, provide helpful information, or ask questions. I have been more active on Yahoo FEH site, where Mike Maline included me in list of people he felt were “unofficial” moderators. What happened between Mike and Jason is their business, but about a month ago when someone asked why Sdctcher hadn’t posted for awhile, he replied: "I rededicated myself to the last few days of summer school, teaching Kindys to read since I got fired by Jason at Greenhybrid." Perhaps it was due to Mike referring some people to his FEH Group site and I may get in trouble for the same issue … but Jason should realize that Mike has an open door policy referring others to this GH site (which is how I learned of it) reasoning that the more hybrid related information you can get out there to poeple, the better (I agree).

EricGo - If you could not find anything new to respond to, then perhaps you should not have responded at all. Slanderous attacks are a tactic people take in debates when they are unable to counter with any credible line of reasoning.
There are those such as XCEL that are mega-posters because they are passionate enough about hybrids to take the time to provide many helpful postings, then there are those who just post & post (kinda like talking to hear themselves talk).

 

Cold turkey works best on an individual basis where there's great will power. If you really really really want to quit smoking, or eating candy, or drinking two pots of coffee a day, you can convince yourself to do it. Turn the switch. It's over.

On a large scale basis, though, it doesn't work. You need to take a long term incremental solution. Without trying to make a political point too bluntly, take a look at the federal government. The income tax started off as a small tax on the richest of the rich. Now we all pay it. So many of the New Deal plans were temporary or small scale, but became permanent and larger-scale over time. It's little steps that lead to a large distance travelled.

I think hybrid cars will be the same way. I think everyone owning one today is still an early adopter, but there are more hybrid styles out there today than there was last year, or the year before. More of each model is being made. And we're still at the point where there's a larger demand than supply, it seems. Slowly, more manufacturers are coming on board, more people are learning about hybrids, and critical mass is becoming an achievable goal - if not for the next ten years.

Gas prices, environmental concerns, tax breaks, more vehicle styles, etc. are all getting the momentum rolling. Hybrids won't be a majority of the market for a long time, but I can see a time in the foreseeable future where there's at least one on every block, or a few in every parking lot.

Slow but steady wins the race and all.

-Augie

 

Hi Gillman:

___I do not know the particulars as to what went on behind the scenes but Mike’s statements hold a lot of weight in my eyes … I can say however that Mike was not as actively involved here at GH as I thought he might have been before Lakedude became a mod. I do not believe for a moment that it was redirection because I redirect GH members to other hybrid sites here all the time. I also redirect members from other sites here in just about the same proportion … Probably more The people that really get upset with re-directs is Edmunds so I hide it as much as I can when over there … And yet the GH link still comes through

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

 

"Others that intend to haul heavier trailers should be aware of this limitation. While on the subject – Hey GaryG, why don’t you trade in your gas boat “toys” for wind and/or paddle powered watercraft, that way you may still get out and enjoy recreating on the water without worrying about gas prices. {Reference Escape the Old SUV post} … and Nitramjr, weren’t you the one to post “let’s all play nice”…"

Thanks Gillman for the suggestion but I'm a diver and a saltwater fisherman. It does burn me up about gas prices and who is making all those profits even more. A hybrid outboard motor has came to mind while filling the 63 gallon tank on my Boston Whaler more than a few times.

I'll use the thing less for now and save for that new motor of my dreams. Hope I'm not to old to use it when it comes out. Anyone know if there anything in the pipeline? Honda makes outboards now and I would think they would be there first.

 

There's a number of problems with trying to make a drastic nationwide change. The psychological effect of doing something like that is that someone is trying to take away an individuals rights. There's also the cultural mindset of generations going against it, and the notion that there isn't a problem, or it can be solved through new technology down the road.

However, all of that is mostly secondary or below, the main reason is why should they? Oh sure, gas is expensive now, but so what? Why should FE be foremost on anyones mind when they buy a car? We know that a car is a status symbol, and has to be transportation for every possible need. Good MPG would be nice, but Horsepower and other factors are far more important to the average buyer. There has to be a reason to make a change, change doesn't occur on its own, and to get people to make a change, there has to be a pretty big positive. Even a small bonus isn't enough for most people.

No one ever sits at home and chops their fingers and toes off because its a good thing to do. People don't take Heroin because they feel they don't have an addiction to complain about. There's got to be a benefit to making a change, and it's got to be good enough to get people to actually make the change rather than think about it, and the small benefits they'd get out of doing it. Additionally if the potential drawbacks outweighs the benefits, forget it. While the wallet makes an easy target, since no one likes to throw money away, there has to be a minimum of drawbacks. You'll be hard pressed to find many people who give up their Escalade for an Insight, but you're likely to find a lot of people who gave up an Explorer for a FEH, or a Civic for a HCH, because they're making a small sacrifice (if any) and getting a lot back in return.

I wrote another paragraph, but I deleted it. I seem to be in a foul mood concerning environmentalists and their proclamations/beliefs at the moment.

 

One reason I named my FEH the "Green Sea Turtle" ... it may not beat the Escape V6 in 0 to 60MPH, but I will pass 'em by at the gas station! Also has an environmental statement, since the sea turtles were close to being extinct and are now on recovery due to humans caring enough to do policy changes.