How about I try it. I had some BAD driving habits the last couple of tanks and coupled with the cold weather I only got about 29 MPG. Surely running 93 octane cant hurt anything?

I have a cousin that is a chemistry professor and will see him at a christmas party tommorrow. I will see if he understands several things:

First of all...the issue with combustion and warming the air.

2nd...how do they increase or decrease octane levels in gas. When they used to have to disclose Ethanol...I NEVER saw 93 Octane gas with ethanol listed. It was alwasy 92 and lower....

So I think ethanol must reduce effectivness of increasing octane levels in gas.

Will let everyone know what I find out.

 

That should be interesting Pat, and I hope you post your results.

I just read allot on ethanol and what was being said was the larger % amount of ethanol worked more efficient in high compression engines. One study suggested a compression ratio of 19 to 1 would make ethanol as efficient as gasoline with compression ratios we see today. The engines would be smaller but would need to be built much stronger to handle that kind of compression.

GaryG

 

Did someone earlier this year state the hybrid's computers will make adjustments to the ethanol after three(?) tanks? Do we anyone who has just done this?

Seventy miles from where I live, the country's largest ethanol plant is being built on the former Sony Plant which used to be the former VW plant in Southwestern Pa. The current Governer of Pa. is touting this project and it doesn't take much to image a top down mandate that all gasoline in this region will include ethanol.

 

Here are two basic (how stuff works and wikipedia) links for ethanol information.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/ethanol-facts.htm/printable

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulosic_ethanol

After reading this information, I would like to believe that corn based ethanol production will evolve to other biomass based products just as the Model T evolve into the Model A.

 

I am in the biofuel heartland, and have seen several presentations on it. If it will fermit, they can make biofuel out of it.

Supposedly there is a type of moss that is drought resistant and grows as long as it's 50 degrees or higher, that produces fuel on a 10 to 1 ratio compared to corn. I think if you google it, you will find it. but how do you kill it once you no longer want to farm it?

Ethanol is here to stay. Our national distribution and storage systems will support it. We cant say that about any other proposed current fuel. Our power grid is in shambles, Hydrogen requires specialized containment.
Sooner or later Ethanol will be formulated so that it doesnt matter if the vehicle is E85 or not.

If Ethanol prefers higher compression engines that would explain why all the race cars have went to it at the INDY 500. How I miss the smell of good ole racing fuel.

As far as economics of ethanol go, just imagine the economic boom that could occur if we would retain 10% of the money that used to go to foreign oil!!!!

 

Patrick is on the right track.
The economic BENEFITS of ethanol are far reaching.
GaryG is so blind by MPG numbers, he can't see the forrest through the trees.

In 2006 I could ( and did ) make ethanol for $1.10 per gallon.
That was my final price after buying all the corn, yeast, water, electricty and having other ingredients delivered to my location.

At 2007 prices, it cost $1.40 to make a gallon of ethanol.
This is the bottom line after all ingredients and energy is purchased and delivered.

You don't need the details about the farmer and the truck driver, as that is all included in the price I paid out for the raw ingredients, including labor.

Ethanol is so cheap and easy to make, it is irrelevant that it gives you fewer MPG. People makeing it are almost printing their own money.
Every person can make 50 gallons a week in a basement or garage at very low cost, once you pay for your eqiupment set-up.

I can make a pint a week at no cost with just recycled jelly jars.

To GaryG I say, wise-up or continue to pay-up.
You say stick it to big oil by driving a hybrid.
If your drivng style and hybrid cuts your gas use by 50%, you have reduced your payments to big oil by 50%.

If you switch to ethanol, you will cut your payment to big oil by 100%.
And once markets adjust, we'll see ethanol at $1.50 per gallon and under.
It was selling for $1.95 at the pump not too long ago.

How come everyone forgets that ethanol is renewable?
Every single drop you use grows back next year!
Anyone have a problem with making ethanol from recycled newspaper, cardboard, or municipal garbage? That point will come sooner than you think. Corn was just a quick and easy way to get the ball rolling.

Btw, did you guys know corn is a man-made plant?
The corn everyone sees and eats does not exist in nature.
The corn you see every day and eat did not exist 300 years ago.
The Natives ate a corn-like plant that was short to the ground and had only a few seed kernals per plant. They did not have what we have today. Corn is bio-engineering at it's best. And we've been doing it for 300 years.

 

The fact is, you've told so many, very few believe you anymore. Your mileage claims certainly have never added up to your driving techniques you describe compared to what I must do in my FEH.

You continue to insult people who don't agree with you with no regard to even the ladies posting.

I've proven myself in front of the media, many posters here and with even a witness (Debbie Katz) inside her FEH, that I know how to get MPG results. No one honks at me, no one flips me off and it's because I stay with the flow of traffic. With the SG, I've learned to predict my mileage based on conditions and routes to my destination, so I know when something is effecting my mileage within a few miles with any changes.

One thing I do know is how E10 ethanol effects my mileage and the effects it has on the long term fuel trim maps in my FEH. E10 has the greatest amount of ethanol that can be ran in my FEH without a great amount of damage to the fuel pump, gauges and sensors. This means ethanol is almost useless if I can't maintain it at the cost of gasoline. John says it's cheaper but, I always pay the same at the pumps in FL. So this means big oil must be getting it cheaper and is still making an even bigger profit on me. If they are buying it for a $1.50 as John says, they just made over a 100% profit off me. So where is the savings John? Next, ethanol produces 34% less energy than GAS in my engine! Now, big oil just ripped me off by 100% for the 10% ethanol they added to my tank and I'm going to have a big drop in mileage to boot. It doesn't stop there folks! This means I'm going to fill-up with less miles much quicker. The problem is, even if I find some real gas, it going cost me 5-10mpg for the next three tanks while my fuel trim maps are adjusting back to normal. This means big oil is going to stick it to me for at least 3 more tanks for that same 100% profit for that 10% ethanol. So now, big oil has made 300% profit on the first 10% of ethanol they sold me.

So John says: "GaryG is so blind by MPG numbers, he can't see the forrest through the trees. To GaryG I say, wise-up or continue to pay-up."

There is no way E10 ethanol can help our environment with my vehicle because I'll burn much more gas going the same distance as straight gas.

And John, if your making ethanol without the costly licenses, inspections, and payoffs, don't let the EPA or local Fire Marshal find out before you kill yourself.

GaryG

 

There are a number of physical and agricultural production factual limitations to the amounts of ethanol and biodiesel that can be produced, as enumerated in the following Congressional report:

http://collinpeterson.house.gov/PDF/ethanol.pdf

Makes for good reading and the data gives one pause, and to think perhaps a bit differently about the issue.

 

I'm not sure if its the law in California, but stations that use E10 put a sign on the gas pump. And no, E10 it's not cheaper than regular gas here.

 

People on the coasts are not in a good position for ethanol, but people +/- 300 miles of the Mississippi River are.

Make it where you grow it.
Use it where you make it.
That is best way to go.
People in the middle of the nation using ethanol will save more regular gas for the coastlines. The quandry is, people on the coastlines have the bad air that can be corrected ( to a degree ) by using ethanol.

It does not make sense to make ethanol in Iowa and ship it to California.
But then again, does it make any more sense to buy oil from Saudi Arabia and ship it to California?

I spent the past 2 years making ethanol in a "medium" sized distillery, and with my own hands ( and 65 million dollars of equipment ) made about 1 million gallons per week. I did all the calculations of inputs and output.
I montiored the gas meter and the electricity meter.

And I can tell you with authority, that in a modern facility, it takes just one-third the energy to make now, as it used to take in year 2000.
It takes just 400 watt-hours of electricity, and 19,000 btu of natural gas to make one gallon of pure ethanol. And the cost to make 1 million gallons per week in 2006 was about $1.10 per gallon. In 2007, this summer it cost about $1.40 per gallon. That was our total price, after all the workers wages were paid, and all the electricity and gas was paid, and all the yeast and minor ingredients were paid.

Now, if the price of corn DOUBLES *( and it hasn't, it has only gone up about 66% ) That equals a price rise of 2 cents per pound.

I buy 65 to 75 pounds of fuel per week. I buy about 1 pound of corn ( to eat ) per week.

So ethanol has added 2 cents to my weekly food bill.
But ethanol ( in the mid-west ) has lowered my gasoline bill by $5 or $6 per week. And yes, it gives lower MPG.

But in the mid-west, it is anywhere from 10 cents to 90 cents cheaper than gas. And yes, stations charging the same, or nearly the same price are "ripping the customer off" and I would be the first to boycott those stations.

In Nebraska, Thanksgiving weekend I found E10 selling for $3.07 and pure gas was $3.53. E85 was in the lower $2 range.

In Minnesota last month E85 was selling for $2.19 in places when gas was $3.15. In Colorado last month E85 was selling for $2.29 when E10 was $2.88.

I the mid-west I almost always pay less than $3 per gallon for E10.
How many of you on the coastline always pay more than $3 for gas?

As newer and newer plants come online, they get better and better and more effiecient each year.

Ethanol isn't perfect, but it's a helluva lot smarter choice than imported oil, and thats a fact.

The FEH does poorly on E10, yes I agree.
Now that I can't avoid it, I use E10 most of the miles I drive.
I'm still getting the EPA rating for my car... though without it, I would be doing better. But better what? MPG is JUST A NUMBER GARY!
And a lower MPG number, on E10 can impact the planet less than a higher MPG on pure gas. Plus 10% of what I use grows back next year.
That's something you can't say in Jupiter Florida.

So to be fair Gary, take my MPG and add 10%, since 10% of that did not come from gas. If MPG = miles per gas, then my numbers are too low.

Oh, and yes Gary, I have made ethanol a pint at a time on the table top with jelly jars in the high school classroom as a science fair demonstration for the kids in my area without any expensive equipment. The process is so simple, even you Gary could probably learn how to do it. But you call yourself an "ol dawg" and you know what they say about old dogs and new tricks....