FEH Weirdness
 

I have some recollection of this problem being discussed before, but I couldn't seem to find it on the boards, so here goes:

I have an 2005 FEH 4wd with about 10k miles on it. Yesterday, as I hit the accellerator to merge onto the freeway, the Check Engine light came on, and the FEH wouldn't accellerate above 20 mph. I exited the freeway on the next off ramp and turned the car off.

When I turned it back on again, it made several weird noises, and then seemed to be completely fine. I drove home, but haven't driven it since.

What the hell happened?

I already would never buy another FEH again. This is just giving me one more reason.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

With 10k miles you should still be under warranty. If the check engine light came on t all it is because a code was set - could be in memory. Have it read. Maybe a good time to finally find anew deaer to service your vehicle.

I am still of the opinion that you got a lemon based on long ago discussions regarding your fuel efficiency. This is more evidence of that.

I have 2 FEH's and they have both been great (6k on the '05 and 5k+ on the '06). Mileage is still increasing. You got a bad one, I am sure.....

Good luck.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

I'm not sure how to prove I have a lemon.

With the mileage problem, Ford keeps saying nothing's wrong. I mean, how can I prove that I don't do jack rabbit starts, or drive too fast?

My girlfriend used the Lemon Law to return her BMW, but that was only after 13 times in the shop over a 9 month period. I haven't had anything that drastic.

Unfortunately, at this point, I don't think there's much I can do. I can ***** to Ford, but they've been less than responsive so far.And unless I get a rash of other problems cropping up, I think I'm stuck with what I have.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

I gotta agree, I've read some of your threads even before I ordered mine and signed up here, it sounds to me like you've got a lemon.

It may be difficult, to prove it, especially depending on what state you live in, from what I've heard, but it does sound like your FEH isn't quite right.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

if the vehicle simply would not go >20mph, sounds like a tranny problem? If the FEH were an automatic I'd say it was just stuck in 1st at that moment- definitely something wrong in there. Dunno how that translates to the CVT, but it sounds like it wanted to stay in the low range, which also could explain your mpg issues. What are you RPMs at highway speed? I know CVT rpms are a lot more unpredictable than regular tansmisisons, but there should be some general correlation you can keep an eye on and point the service dept to.

I'm not sure how the 4WD is set up on the FEH, but if its engaged and there's a traditional transfer case and/or hub locks that are sick, that can also be the mpg culprit. Is there a 4low setting? 4low won't let you go over 20-30mph in some vehicles. Maybe it got stuck in that setting from a glitch of some sort?

If you are a FWD, then ignore all I just wrote.

what mpg are you getting?

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Copyboy, I think your getting to your problem with the check engine light coming on. A while back you were saying you were having a problem with EV mode. I said then I thought it had something to do with the Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor. Now your telling us about not being able to get over 20 mph.

The Torque Based Electronic Throttle Control we have replaced the old standard cable operated accelerator pedal. This is a hardware and software strategy which uses pedal position for engine output. There is a plunger assembly in the Electronic Throttle Body that lets you limp home at a top speed of 30 mph if this system gets wacky. Your problem went away after shut down (reset).

The fact that you got a check engine light this time may make it easier for the dealership to find your problem. This type of information is stored in the computer and can be brought up as a code on a Diagnostic Computer.

Ford does not make lemons, they make the finest Hybrid in the World. You may have a bad switch or software problem.

Gary

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Hey Gary,

Ford does make lemons, every manufacturer does. But just because one vehicle is bad doesn't mean the rest are. I'm very pleased with my FEH, and don't understand the problems that copyboy is having.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Salsbr, lemons grow on trees. I'm kidding here guys.

Copyboy has a problem with his FEH that can be fixed. Ray and I agree that the code is most likely stored in the memory chip. With all that copyboy has told us, I think it is a bad accelerator sensor. It is a three position switch that the PCM and other (such as the ECVT module) computers on the FEH read and relay to other sensors to make things happen. One of these three positions could be bad but the FEH can operate still because the computers work around the problem with the other two position. This will not produce a code or engine light. Now that copyboy saw a check engine light, that means a code most likely is stored in the memory chip. This means that there was a failure of something. It reset and copyboy was on his way.

The reason I thought it was the Torque Based Electronic Throttle Control was because he was able to limp off the highway. It has a mechanical plunger thats spring loaded to let this happen when the TBETC fails. Now that a code came up with this problem (I THINK) Copyboy can remind them of the other driving problems. Their not going to replace the TBETC, their going to find what caused it to fail. They will have a list of sensors that could have caused the problem in the manual and a way to test these sensors.

The dealership has a problem now they can identify. Hopefully it will solve his other problem also.

Gary

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Just for the info, the 4WD is automatic, there's no switching, no low, nothing; My old '95 Explorer had a three way switch, 2WD, 4WD, and 4WD Low, there's nothing like that on the FEH. It's always on (Checking some 200 times per second and adjusting power to the wheels as needed), and there's a diagnostic for it in the system check runthrough.

It would seem that perhaps Copyboy's problems have finally gotten to someplace where the tech people he's been taking it to finally have something they can't ignore, and perhaps a solution to his problem, I'd certainly take it in now.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Thanks for all the help guys. We took it in last night to the dealer - it drove fine for about 5 minutes, then the same thing happened - wouldn't accellerate over 20 mph, the wrench light came on, and now this time the emmission light came on (which is different from the first time).

Luckily, this all happened right as we were pulling into the dealer, so we left the car running so he could see the lights on and what was happening. Hopefully, they can tell us what's wrong.

We also told them (again) about the MPG problems we've had and the braking problems. They've never been able to fix those before, but we want to make sure it's all documented in case we have to go the Lemon Law route.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

CopyBoy1,

Please report back on the diagnosis as well as fix, some of us are keeping track of FEH problems to assist others who report problems. Doubt these apply, but here are several examples:

* One guy reported his Check Engine light came on and message read "Emission System". Turns out he had just replaced the FEH gas cap with locking cap and it did not seal good enough; problem could also occur if not getting gas cap on fully.

*One gal had multiple error lights that got worse over two days, starting with "Check Brakes" progressing to "System Alert/Caution". The cause turned out to be an electrical harness screw fell off, where the wires then frayed from movement and shorted-out systems. First they replaced her electrical drive train and voltage converter before finding problem source. Ford bought her vehicle back after a couple weeks in shop and replaced with a new one.

* Other than that, only other major problems were early 2005 FEH Steering Control Module failures and a few ABS Hydraulic Control Valve replacements.

Note: One case of very low MPG turned out to be from owner replacement of the low-rolling resistance tires and light weight alloy wheels with heavier/larger wheels.

Be sure to ask for loaner car if they keep in shop for any duration. So far, Ford Dealers have been taking days consulting Ford Hybrid Team on weird problems to make sure they get it right, then days longer to get major components away from assembly plant (some are in short supply).

Hope whatever it is also resolves your poor fuel economy problem.
-Dan

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

After reviewing manual, I think GaryG has pin-pointed likely problem...

Acceleration Control
The engine management system electronically operates the throttle of the engine in response to throttle pedal movements initiated by the driver. In the event of a system failure, the engine management system provides a "limp home" mode which allows the car to be driven with limited performance.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Ok, I'm relaying this second hand. (My girlfriend talked to the dealer.) But he told her the "throttle body is acting up." I have no idea what that means, but it sounds like it might be what you're talking about. They haven't tried to address the gas mileage or braking issues yet.

We asked for a loaner. They only have 4 loaner cars, so we're on the waiting list for one.

I've got to say, the Ford service certainly ain't the greatest. We also own a BMW, and the dealer will give you a loaner for anything - even if you need one for a few hours while they're changing the oil!

Anyway, hopefully this will solve at least one of the problems.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Gillman, I totally could be wrong according to what those yahoo's at the dealership will say. I've had an A/C activator valve replaced four times in three years in my 2002 Explorer. Something is causing that problem I would think. Other people should have the same problem if it is common. It's a knocking noise in the left rear area of the Exployer.

Anyway, I also look forward to copyboy's report from the dealer. It's good to know we have some people that want to help and find a cause of a problem. You are a good person in my book!

Gary

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

The symptoms sound drastic, but it could be something really simple. I'm not sure, but I think Lemon Laws vary state-by-state (although most states copy from each other, so laws tend to be remarkably similar). Here in Michigan if you have to take the car to service more than 3 times for the same problem, then you have a Lemon (under the law). The law puts some pressure on the dealer and manufacturer to get very comprehensive/complete in what they're willing to do as the car is returned for service more than once or twice.

I had a similar experience with my Audi A6. I'd go to pull out of my neighborhood onto the main road and the car wouldn't shift from 1st gear. It also had some other (seemingly unrelated) problems. In reverse the passenger-door rearview mirror is supposed to tip down 15deg so that I can see how close my tires are to the curb as I parallel park. The mirror would tip down, then never come up again when the car is in drive. Also, all 3 rear mirrors (passenger door, driver door, and interior rv mirror) auto-dim at night. The mirrors weren't dimming anymore. Turns out I read that the mirrors wont dim if they think the car is in reverse -- this is to let you have more visibility when you are backing up at night. I told the dealer about all these problems and said the only common component to all 3 propblems would be if the computer believed the car was supposed to be in reverse -- like a bad sensor on the tranmission selector.

Oh no... don't listen to the idiot customer because our mechanics are top-notch. Dealer wouldn't believe me and just kept trying to check the trasnmission for failures. On my third visit, they FINALLY ordered a new tranmission selector (this is the thing that knows if you're in P,R,N,D,etc.). Turns out it WAS a bad sensor. Though the trans was physically in "Drive" and would move forward, the computer thought it was "Reverse" and thus the problems with mirrors and accounting for the fact that it refused to shift (since it's electronically shifted transmission, the computer wouldn't shift it). But it was only the threat of the lemon law that forced the dealer to actually tear into that part to find the problem.

I had another brand new car where the turn signals kept freezing (wouldn't flash). The dealer kept replacing the flasher module. Turns out it was a loose wire on the back side of the fuse panel (where the flasher plugs in). The dealer didn't actually ever check the wiring - they figure "no flash", must be a broken flasher -- and would never do anything more. Again, after 3 visits, Lemon Law kicks in and they MUST fix successfully or buy back the car. This got them to spend 5 extra minutes unscrewing the fuse panel to check wires on the backside to find that the wire harness was barely plugged in. Never had another problem with that car again.

Good luck with your FEH. Hopefully they find/fix it and it turns out to be something really simple. I really love my FEH and fully intend to either buy another one -- or maybe that new Lexus GS hybrid (looks like a Prius, but luxury version) as long as fuel economy is as good as a Prius.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

It does not sound like my Aux Coolant pump failure, but I was told that I should have gone into "safe mode," which sounds like what happened to you.

Instead of safe mode I got the FEH equivalant of the old windows BSOD.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

So we just got the FEH back from the dealer today. They replaced the throttle body and claim that was the problem with both the major malfunction and with our poor gas mileage.

Could the throttle body really be at fault for our poor mpg? Does that make any sense?

And despite us telling them the car or the conditions have to be wet to replicate our brake problems, the dealer still says nothing's wrong with the brakes. "Well, did you wet the car's brakes down?" "Uh...no." My god these people drive me crazy.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

So, the poor gas milage that didn't exist should be fixed by a defective throttle body that wasn't defective before but was once it threw a code? Hmmm.

A bad throttle body could cause poor mileage. Hopefully they solved the mileage problem (and the weirdness problem) and your first tank will reflect that. I'd probably change the oil just in case it had been running rich and contaminated the oil.

If your next tank shows a big improvement and you document all your fill-ups, I would send a strongly worded letter to the district/regional service manager and bring that to their attention. Sounds like they have/had some lazy techs that couldn't be bothered diagnosing a problem because they don't get much "flat-rate" time to do that......

Hope it works out and you become as impressed with your vehicle as most of us here are.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

GOOD ADVICE!

Could a defective throttle body throw your fuel economy? Yes, and let me tell you why.

My brother had a car with a defective fuel injector. The injector basically stuck 'open' and just kept flooding the affected cylinder with fuel. His symptom was that he was getting poor fuel economy.

The cylinder burns what it can. Some of what it can't burn spew out the exhaut. Some of it will drain through the cylinders and into the oil pan. With the oil contaminated, your main bearings will get washed (read: insufficient lubricant because it's thinned with gasolilne) and end up burning out the bearings and siezing the engine. Not good. My brother siezed his engine and found his oil loaded with gas.

I'd change the oil (to be safe). If it really was the throttle body then the car should immediately start getting better fuel economy and your troubles should be behind you.

Good luck!

Regards,
Tim

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

From talking to two large Ford dealerships, each had only one certified FEH mechanic. As most of us know you can be a jack of all trades and master of none. Ford knows this and many times has the dealership just replace the whole unit and has them return the bad unit to detail what part failed or a needs a change in design. If they replaced the whole electronic thottle body with all sensors included as an assembly, It might take care of the problem. Please look on the paperwork you got with the repair and check all of the test or checked items with no charge they performed. That paperwork is important to keep and if you can give us a detail of what they did or didn't do, it will help. Many of us have the manuals the dealerships have which go step by step in diagnosis of a code or problem found.

For instanced, I was reading about finding a problem with the traction motor and the manual called for the whole trans. to be replaced in the FEH. In 1999 I had a oil consumption problem and Ford replaced the long block in my Navigator and had the dealer send it back to them for investigation.

I think the biggest thing that has come out is, you had and may still have a problem. Many of us that don't have the problem as most of the others with great MPG in the FEH, think it is the driver's habits, not the car. I never thought your problem was BS from the start. Your feedback is important to me and others here. Dan and others want to share problems as well as the benifits of the FEH. I have a great FEH and I know yours can be one also. It may take a good problem solver to get you there, but it's there. The FEH is not a lemon, it is the future that may have problems.

Tell us if things have improved or not this weekend.

Thanks, Gary

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Eletronic throttle bodies are complicated beasts. I replaced one on our 2000 Volvo, costs about $1K with labor.

The problem is the throttle position sensor, which now must also help the servomotor figure out what the throttle angle is. Without that feedback the computer can't decide whether to open or close the throttle. In older designs, with a mechanical throttle linkage, the sensor was only responsible for providing input to the F/I system to help determine ignition and fuel timing. If it failed, the system would go into open loop but you'd still have full throttle control. No more...now if it fails the throttle goes to a default "limp home" position which provides very limited ability.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Ok, picked up the FEH on Saturday and have put about 75 miles on it so far.

The initial won't-go-over-20-mph seems to have been fixed. So that's good.

While we've only done 75 miles, we're now getting about 28 mpg (better than the 26 we usually get). I'm attributing this to the 2-3 mpg jump everyone else seems to get once they do their initial oil change. (This was our first change.) We'll have to see how it plays out over the whole tank of gas, but it doesn't look like changing the throttle body has markedly improved our mpg.

I'll have to double-check the paperwork and report back as to exactly what the dealership replaced.

The car hasn't been in wet conditions, so I don't know if the braking problems have been fixed.

And one last thing we noticed - the car seems to perform quite differently in low gear now. I had tried the low gear suggestion several months ago and I didn't notice anything different - not in how the car performs or the mpg it was getting. We tried it again the other day and really noticed a difference in how it performs, uses the brakes, etc. We're going to try a full tank without being in low first, to see how our mpg responds to the new throttle body. Next tank we'll try the low gear thing and see how that works.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Copyboy, how much mph can you get now in EV? I got 30mph the first day I picked mine up. At 13,000 miles I can get to 38mph and sometimes set the cruise. Had to put 44psi in the tires to get this.

I don't use "L" all the time, mainly to shut down the ICE or charge the battery. Now that you can use the EV mode better, mpg will improve.

I've been using a trick that really has helped my mpg. No one on the hybrid boards that I know have said it helps them. I call it the "four fake shifts" (like shifting a four speed tranny). As you know, the FEH revs high when you take off till it settles which is sometimes way to long. My mileage drops off if I let this happen.

The fake shift helps me in two ways:

1 It gives an added boost to the battery. Someone said here that they thought using the brakes gave a better charge than using low. I agreed that the charge needle seems to go further over when you hit the brakes. The fact is, it not just hitting the brakes that gives this higher charge. It's letting off the gas pedal and stopping the charge already in progress from the ICE and leaves it for the wheels to take over. This jump in charge happens even if you don't hit the brakes.

2 You step up the speed and step down the RPM's. While making the fake shifts slow, it give you a chance to start a new climb in RPM's at a faster speed till you reach the speed you want at a much lower RPM. Its a matter of letting off the gas as if you were driving a four speed to shift.

Many here do not use EV mode as much as I and say they don't need every chance to charge the battery like I do. I think they must consider charging the battery any time they can without the ICE burning more fuel in order to get better MPG.

Gary

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Gary, I think I understand how the fake shifts are helping you. I've been playing with that a bit too. By letting off the gas for a second, the RPMs start dropping and then by reapplying the gas, the computer will add a little torque from the motor to help build speed. As long as you don't let speed start dropping off when you do the fake shift, you should use more battery and get better milage. Personally, I think the computer is too biased to the ICE and this is one way to offset that bias. I don't see why the computer can't continue adding torque from the motor as long as you are accelerating (even lightly). I know there would have to be limits such as "as long as HV battery is above XX%", but I don't see why it can't assist more often than it does.

Sorry for running a bit off topic, just wanted to comment on the technique :)

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

One thing to remember is that the electric motor develops maximum torque at zero RPM and drops from there. The faster you're going the less it can help.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

I'm getting about 28 mpg overall since the repairs were made.

The first month or so we had it, we were getting 18 mpg. Then once we learned how to drive a hybrid properly, we got it up to about 23 mpg. Everyone said you get a bump around 5000 miles, and we did, from 23 mpg to about 26 - and that's where it's stayed for the past 5000 miles.

Now that we had these repairs done and the oil changed, we bumped up again to 28 mpg (actually about 27.8). But those results are only from about a quarter tank so far. I'll have to use a few tanks to see if the improvement is permenant.

But it's just discouraging to read about all of you who get 30 mpg off the lot and then get more afterwards.

Off the line, I usually only get to maybe 20 mph before the ICE kicks in. There's one stretch not far from our house that's a really slight downhill, and sometimes on that I can get to 30 mph.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Copyboy, from a dead stop to 30mph is not bad in EV. I think increasing from 30 and higher in EV by gas pedal is very hard but can be done to about 33mph in my FWD. Speeds higher than that require a tap of the brakes or shift to "L" at 40mph and holding the pedal to maintain a higher speed in EV. I set the cruise because I can't hold my leg steady long enough to stay in EV for much distance. I also found that sometimes I'll be driving at a set speed under 36mph and the ICE will shut down by itself. At around 6,000 miles I started being abe to set the cruise at 35mph in EV with 40psi in the tires. I increased the presure to 44psi at 12,000 miles and found I sometimes can set the cruise at 38mph in EV. The AWD may have a problem doing this but I can't say. Hope you can use this info to compare your FEH.

Scott and Steve thanks for your imput with the fake shift. I started using it on my first tank because I didn't like the high RPM's. It seems my mileage drops if I don't use it. If someone thinks it is a good or bad trick, please start a new thread to help others.

Gary

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

We're averaging 30mpg overall, but I was getting 38mpg for a few days straight. I was driving under 60mph in L, with no AC. Then I picked my wife up at the airport and the AC got cranked back to max, and the mpg dropped to about 27mpg.

I noticed that with it in L, I can cruise along in EV mode (with no AC) at about 38mph for a fairly long time. If you turn on the AC or the headlights - then the ICE comes on a lot more frequently. Not that the high daily temps are in the 70's - driving without AC will be easy... I guess the headlights (and the stereo) will affect your mpg somewhat. :)

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Ok, back with an update. Too bad it's yet another not-so-good one.

After all the fixes (see previous posts in this thread) and the oil change, we're now getting WORSE mileage than before.

Pre-fixes/oil change, we had been averaging 26.4 over a dozen tanks of gas. In the first tank afterwards, we got 25.8. And now we're down to 24.4.

Even though we've brought it up to the dealer several times, he just NOW told us to keep a mileage log. For how long we're supposed to do this, I don't know. We have more than 10k miles and aren't even getting 25mpg since we bought it. But they still won't do anything until we keep another gas log.

I know you've all had great experiences with your FEHs, but I would never buy another one again - especially not from Ford.

It's been ridiculous to get anyone to fix the problems we've had (and still have). We've been getting poor gas mileage from Day 1 (a full year ago) and no one can tell us why. We've had other mechanical problems. We've had poor quality control problems (albeit small ones).

I've owned probably a half dozen cars in my lifetime and have never had a car like this. We can't even use the Lemon Law yet because Ford keeps saying they don't think there's a problem.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

A couple of thoughts.

1. What is your typical trip length? If you are taking shorter trips (under 30 minutes) the engine and catalyst may not be getting warm enough to allow engine shutdown to occur when it should.

2. Do you have another dealer in your area you could go to for a second opinion?

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

Trip length certainly lowers the FE on the vehicles, especially in the cooler months. But 24 or 25 mpg?

My wife has been driving the '05 since I got the '06 in June. Her average trip is less than 15 minutes - getting groceries, going to the mall, etc - all within a couple miles of the house. She still averages 30-31 mpg.

Something seems to me to be wrong with copyboy's car and if Ford doesn't step up and at least investigate what is wrong then they are letting us all down.

What is the time limit on Lemon Law cases in your state, copyboy? Make sure they aren't just buying time to get past the deadline.

Re: FEH Weirdness
 

In certain driving conditions, (lots of accelerating and decellerating) we've seen 25mpg. In this type of driving condition it helps me a lot to drive in low instead of drive. You can switch to it any time, at any speed - because it's only a programming change. What it will do is engage the regenerative braking sooner, so you use that to slow down instead of normal brakes. So far on this tank, we're reading right at 39mpg - all in low gear...

We also spend a lot of time in low gear at 30-35mph in electric mode. Starting off slowly to use only electric as long as possible, then using the gas and brakes sparingly, and playing with the speed to keep the gas engine off...