I've always read this, but didn't see how that would allow the sun and the carrier to turn in the opposite direction (forward) while the ring gear is spinning in reverse. However, we have always been able to shift to reverse with the generator charging and engine running. This is a strange transmission.

Here is an oldie but goody article.

[Note: Mechanical Tekies might realize this “drive-the- carrier, hold-the- sun, output-the-ring-gear” as an overdrive configuration. This would be true if the sun were held stationary. However, because the motor generator holding force allows sun gear rotation, the effective ratio can span anywhere from reduction all the way to overdrive. Hence, the eCVT is a continuously variable automatic transmission.]
http://www.gulfcoastnews.com/RT2005FordEscapeHybrid.htm


I have found a few mistakes also, but most don't repeat in other sections. For instance, I just hit 40,000 miles and was looking up the 40,000 mile service requirement. The repair manual shock me by stating the exhaust system had to be replaced ('05 Manual). When I looked at the 80,000 mile service requirements, the manual stated the exhaust system needed to be inspected. That's a mistake.

GaryG

 

You almost have to have a planetary gearset in your hands before most people (including me) can get their hands around it, I learned 15 years ago when I was tought automatic transmissions. Now its second nature to me. Once I learned how the eCVT worked I had a DUH moment, why didnt I think of that, its so simple. BTW the model T Ford had a planetary transmission.

 

#1 I understand how a ratchet works. But you forgot it only has two parts, handle and bolt, while the FEH has 3 parts.

#2 the spinning wheels CAN speed up the ICE if the 3rd part, the generator is held still by a brake, or its negative rotation is slowed by electrical current being applied.

#3 This "engine brake" effect is slight at slow speeds. This is why the engine run-up strategy was created to slow the car, at slower than highway speeds.

#4 While yet to be proven, a traditional, compression brake only method may be used at fast speeds, with wheels putting torque into the ICE, by means of generator slowing, or generator brake. If the generator slows or stops from a negative rotation, this will speed up the ICE. If further ICE ramp up is desired, then electrical power must be applied to the generator, to spin it in the forward direction, to further speed up the ICE.

#5 I cannot believe you say push starting the ICE is impossible. You probably do it EVERY DAY Gary! Have you, or have you not started the car in Neutral while moving? Yes? And since there is no mechanical disconnect in N, there is no difference between starting the car in N or starting the car in Drive, only the software allows one, and not the other. Think a little more outside the box. I'm telling you what is possible, not what the software allows. With a software hack to apply the generator brake ( seen in all your drawings ) and inject some fuel, you could push start this car, in N or Drive or Low. Its all the same from a mechanics standpoint. AND it is very possible the car DOES DO THIS when the car is moving faster than 20 miles per hour!
I have seen documentation for "low speed restart" and "high speed restart" and why would there be two different modes of restart then? I think each and every time the car does it's own restart from EV to ICE in normal driving, if you are moving at the top end of EV, the car itself may use the wheels to spin up the ICE. It would take less battery power, and save energy to do it that way, so why not take advantage?

"Push starting the FEH/MMH is totally impossible John."
"the manual also says no forward or reverse gear can be engaged if the vehicle is not started"

#6 You are not correctly understanding the statement above. All that means is you can not get in and drive away in EV mode without cycling the key to "start" first and getting the car icon on the green message center.
Just a software issue... just because you are not allowed to do it, does not make it impossible! A 17 year old kid is now using an iPhone on any phone network he wants, and Apple says it is impossible to use on any network other than AT&T. Turns out, the iPhone simply ships with software that does not allow you to use the phone anywhere other than AT&T.
Remove the software, and you have more "possibilities".
#7 there are no cases when the OWC "locks up" in both directions. This is a case where the name is very appropriate. One-way.

#8 The generator can start the engine when you are traveling in reverse, just by spinning a little faster. Here are the numbers:

At 0 MPH, the generator spins at 3400 RPM to get the ICE at 1000 RPM.
At 10 MPH forward, the generator spins at 1800 RPM to start the ICE.
Why less? BECAUSE THE ROLLING WHEELS ( ring gear ) contributes!
At 10 MPH reverse, the generator spins 5000 RPM to start the ICE.
Why more? Because the rolling wheels ( ring gear ) takes away from the starting ability.

Now, here's where it gets interesting.
At exactly 21.8 MPH, the generator speed must be zero, at ICE 1000 RPM.
So the generator gets enough current to provide torque to hold itself still, or a brake is applied ( don't know which ) and the rotation of the ring gear spins up the ICE. This is a "push start".... yes or no???
The generator IS providing torque, but it's not doing any work, since it is not moving. It is like you pushing your hand against a wall. You are pushing, you are adding force, but you are not adding motion to the wall.
It is literally the wheels that turn the ICE at 21.8 MPH, but they cannot do it without the generator providing counter resistance at the same time.

Look it up. That's the math involved.

Of course it does not "instantly" jump to zero rpm... when you start the car at 21.8 MPH, the "brake" (either by electrical current or mechanical) is a gradual process. If you can call 0.3 seconds a gradual process!
( the time it takes to get the ICE from zero to 1000 RPM )

 

John, I don't think your going to convince anyone the engine spins in neutral other than at an idle when it's running. During neutral tow, the engine is off and is not turning.

As far as starting the engine, yes it is possible for the strategy to use the wheels, but I highly think not.

The FEH can be pushed to get 70mpg, I've done that. At the MPG Challenge, I got over 60mpg. I have posted my techniques, but yet, I've never seen a post from you on any techniques you use to get near my recorded mileage.

GaryG

 

GaryG wrote: John, I don't think your going to convince anyone the engine spins in neutral other than at an idle when it's running.

You know what? It's not my job or duty to convince people of anything.
I have provided clear, factual information.
I have proven beyond a reasonable doubt how the FEH works.
Those who choose not to believe it, indicate an unreasonable person.

During neutral tow, the engine is off and is not turning.

Did you figure that out yourself? Or did you need help?
Who said it was? Certainly, not me!

As far as starting the engine, yes it is possible for the strategy to use the wheels, but I highly think not.

Well, you're allowed to have incorrect thoughts. It's a free country.

The FEH can be pushed to get 70mpg, I've done that. At the MPG Challenge, I got over 60mpg. I have posted my techniques, but yet, I've never seen a post from you on any techniques you use to get near my recorded mileage.

This is NOT a thread about MPG. This is NOT a site about MPG. This is a site about Hybrid Cars. If you cannot keep up with the technical aspects of this particular discussion, then feel free to read without posting info that does not contribute. Thank You.

 

John, you edited this post a lot more than "thank you" from your original post that members were e-mailed. Personal attacks again?

The point of my post was to state that the wheels will not spin the engine in neutral. Starting the engine in neutral and push starting the engine has nothing to do with each other. If I understand the OWC, it must close in order for the generator to start the engine.

My point about my mileage was neutral coasting is a big factor. If there were engine braking in neutral, I would never get this kind of mileage.

GaryG

 

Yes, I edited out irrelevant "fluff" and stuck to the facts.
Here are more facts.

You have been wrong on almost everything in this thread.
You have shown me, and others, you do not understand how things work.
You do not understand the point or role of the OWC.
The wheels are connected in "pretend neutral".
You can't even call it neutral at this point, since it does not resemble neutral in the traditional sense.
The car does spin up the ICE in "pretend neutral".
The wheels can put torque into the ICE.
That fact that you never have seen it does not make it impossible.
Other people have seen it occur.
The car's computer automatically does what resembles a "push start" every time you start the engine at forward speeds.
We are not talking about MPG, yet you keep bringing it up!?!?? Why?
Maybe your ego is hurt, and you are tying to repair it.
I personally would appreciate it if you repaired your ego somewhere else.

The fact is, you have been wrong more often than right.
Readers should take your posts, "with a grain of salt".
Readers can replicate everything I post in their own cars.
I cannot understand why you refuse to go out at look at your own car.

You can post a convincing argument at times.
You even got me to reverse my comments on things once or twice, when I had the correct story in the first place.

You would make a great politician Gary.
You can persuade people.

A big THANK YOU to all the persons who have contributed useful information. They say you can't have light without dark, and you can't have right without wrong. Without Gary's poking and prodding, I probably would not have looked as deeply into this issue.

I would appreciate further questions or comments to me regarding this thread be addressed to me in personal mail. I will help you where I can. You, the interested parties do not deserve getting involved with a personality clash between myself, and GaryG. Thank You, and happy motoring!

With all due sincerity,
-John
gpsman1@yahoo.com

 

Wo-ah, woah woah there!

Personal Attacks aren't allowed, and we're supposed to all be on the same side, the hybrid side! You want to squable, do it elsewhere.

I highly encourage all personal attacks to be edited out of recent threads, or they'll be deleted.

Gary, John, be nice! It doesn't hurt, honest! Keep this up and it gets locked.

 

Most of this discussion is too technical for my pay grade, but the one point I feel I can dispute is the theory that starting in neutral while rolling is a "push start." The vehicle doesn't buck as it does when push starting a manual transmission, so I don't think this theory is correct.

 

This is a 3-way transmission, not a 2-way transmission, such as in every other ( non-hybrid ) car.

Most "noise, harshness, or vibration" as Ford labels it is very effectively dampened by the 3rd member of the transmission, and not felt by you, or the chassis of the vehicle.

Since this is a "one of a kind" vehicle, you cannot compare it to other traditional cars. That is why I said "resembles a push start" because you are right, it is not exactly the same, however, the part about the rotating wheels rotating the engine is the same. -John