TC and F/awd vehicles.
#21
06-03-2009, 03:31 PM
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
I did Basic there in late '62 and then ET "A" school at Treasure Island in San Fransico.
#22
06-03-2009, 03:36 PM
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
TC is on a FWD only too!
My suggestion, idea, for improving the TC functionality of Ford's AdvanceTrac system only works on F/awd versions of Ford's and other vehicles.
You'd need to look at a FE shop manual which explains it better yet doesn't get into the exact sequence of events.
Maybe TC happens after torque is sent to the rear wheels.
Like "I" said, IMMHO the initial action upon detection of front wheelspin/slip should be to instantly couple the rear drive in at the 50/50 level while "belaying" TC activation unless wheelspin/slip persists.
But after reading both of the Fusion F/awd model descriptions, AdvanceTrac's TC functionality and F/awd functionality, I came to realize, yet again, that things must be done differently on a base FWD, as is the F/awd models of both FEH and Fusion.
So while I cannot be certain the F/awd system and AdvanceTrac system on the FEH will be functionally the same on the Fusion with F/awd I see no reason to suspect otherwise.
But, insofar as the Fusion's F/awd and AdvanceTrac systems are concerned I see no reason to doubt that these Ford factory descriptions of the functionality are correct. So, that would mean that upon detection of front wheelspin BOTH TC functionality and coupling of rear drive occur simultaneously.
Not exacly desireable from an engineering standpoint but certainly so from a safety standpoint.
Like I said, they don't explain every detail that's programed into the system.
My suggestion, idea, for improving the TC functionality of Ford's AdvanceTrac system only works on F/awd versions of Ford's and other vehicles.
You'd need to look at a FE shop manual which explains it better yet doesn't get into the exact sequence of events.
Maybe TC happens after torque is sent to the rear wheels.
Like "I" said, IMMHO the initial action upon detection of front wheelspin/slip should be to instantly couple the rear drive in at the 50/50 level while "belaying" TC activation unless wheelspin/slip persists.
But after reading both of the Fusion F/awd model descriptions, AdvanceTrac's TC functionality and F/awd functionality, I came to realize, yet again, that things must be done differently on a base FWD, as is the F/awd models of both FEH and Fusion.
So while I cannot be certain the F/awd system and AdvanceTrac system on the FEH will be functionally the same on the Fusion with F/awd I see no reason to suspect otherwise.
But, insofar as the Fusion's F/awd and AdvanceTrac systems are concerned I see no reason to doubt that these Ford factory descriptions of the functionality are correct. So, that would mean that upon detection of front wheelspin BOTH TC functionality and coupling of rear drive occur simultaneously.
Not exacly desireable from an engineering standpoint but certainly so from a safety standpoint.
Like I said, they don't explain every detail that's programed into the system.
#23
06-03-2009, 03:39 PM
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
I wasn't teaching there until January of '64.
#24
06-03-2009, 03:58 PM
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
As stated in the factory documents Ford's AdvanceTrac quite clearly has TC functionality, braking of a slipping wheel or wheels and simultaneous engine dethrottling. I do my best to NOT use terms that do not strictly apply insofar as folks knowledgeable of the venue are concerned.
For the more knowledgeable, 4WD involves a part time system, low traction use ONLY, wherein the front driveline can be SOLIDLY LOCKED to the rear driveline. 4X4 is generally accepted to mean, within the "community" as a 4WD system with the addition of a HIGH torque low gear range.
AWD seems to be more commonly used for systems where no action is required of the driver as the extra wheel drive is automatically coupled in only under certain specific conditions. Mostly for moderate to hard acceleration and if a loss of traction is detected on the primary drive wheels.
For me those can be, are, separated into two categories, F/awd and R/awd.
For the more knowledgeable, 4WD involves a part time system, low traction use ONLY, wherein the front driveline can be SOLIDLY LOCKED to the rear driveline. 4X4 is generally accepted to mean, within the "community" as a 4WD system with the addition of a HIGH torque low gear range.
AWD seems to be more commonly used for systems where no action is required of the driver as the extra wheel drive is automatically coupled in only under certain specific conditions. Mostly for moderate to hard acceleration and if a loss of traction is detected on the primary drive wheels.
For me those can be, are, separated into two categories, F/awd and R/awd.
#25
06-03-2009, 04:57 PM
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
As stated in the factory documents Ford's AdvanceTrac quite clearly has TC functionality, braking of a slipping wheel or wheels and simultaneous engine dethrottling. I do my best to NOT use terms that do not strictly apply insofar as folks knowledgeable of the venue are concerned.
For the more knowledgeable, 4WD involves a part time system, low traction use ONLY, wherein the front driveline can be SOLIDLY LOCKED to the rear driveline. 4X4 is generally accepted to mean, within the "community" as a 4WD system with the addition of a HIGH torque low gear range.
AWD seems to be more commonly used for systems where no action is required of the driver as the extra wheel drive is automatically coupled in only under certain specific conditions. Mostly for moderate to hard acceleration and if a loss of traction is detected on the primary drive wheels.
For me those can be, are, separated into two categories, F/awd and R/awd.
For the more knowledgeable, 4WD involves a part time system, low traction use ONLY, wherein the front driveline can be SOLIDLY LOCKED to the rear driveline. 4X4 is generally accepted to mean, within the "community" as a 4WD system with the addition of a HIGH torque low gear range.
AWD seems to be more commonly used for systems where no action is required of the driver as the extra wheel drive is automatically coupled in only under certain specific conditions. Mostly for moderate to hard acceleration and if a loss of traction is detected on the primary drive wheels.
For me those can be, are, separated into two categories, F/awd and R/awd.
The shop manual for the FE/FEH calls it 4WD system in the index and page headings but calls it AWD in the text.
#26
06-03-2009, 05:33 PM
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
wptski,
I object to what he purports to say as if it's fact. He doesn't even have an FEH and comes on and posts stuff as if he is the be all & end all of things hybrid.
I've caught him on stuff that was wrong in the past. After the third time I put him on my ignore list and so only see his stuff when someone quotes it.
As an RO you know manuals. I've been a ChEng, CO, CO Tender w/Nuc Repair fac on board.
I'll have to research the conventional side of the books as I just haven't paid attention to them. The Pix they show for the 6 cyl shows a conventional transfer case below the engine. The PTU for the 2.3 l 4 cyl engines appears to be the same.
But the software implementation has to be different: the hybrid version has to allow for battery only ops while the conventional one only has to allow for throttle position.
I object to what he purports to say as if it's fact. He doesn't even have an FEH and comes on and posts stuff as if he is the be all & end all of things hybrid.
I've caught him on stuff that was wrong in the past. After the third time I put him on my ignore list and so only see his stuff when someone quotes it.
As an RO you know manuals. I've been a ChEng, CO, CO Tender w/Nuc Repair fac on board.
I'll have to research the conventional side of the books as I just haven't paid attention to them. The Pix they show for the 6 cyl shows a conventional transfer case below the engine. The PTU for the 2.3 l 4 cyl engines appears to be the same.
But the software implementation has to be different: the hybrid version has to allow for battery only ops while the conventional one only has to allow for throttle position.
#27
06-03-2009, 05:44 PM
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
Okay, let's now refer to the TC implementation in the FEH as braking of spinning/slipping "driven" wheel(s) and simultaneous removal of wheel drive torque.
Happy..??
Happy..??
Last edited by wwest; 06-03-2009 at 05:47 PM.
#28
06-03-2009, 05:46 PM
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
wptski,
I object to what he purports to say as if it's fact. He doesn't even have an FEH and comes on and posts stuff as if he is the be all & end all of things hybrid.
I've caught him on stuff that was wrong in the past.
Sorry, I tend to ignore those "catches" unless correct, corrective, information is supplied to support the "you're wrong" statements.
After the third time I put him on my ignore list and so only see his stuff when someone quotes it.
As an RO you know manuals. I've been a ChEng, CO, CO Tender w/Nuc Repair fac on board.
I'll have to research the conventional side of the books as I just haven't paid attention to them. The Pix they show for the 6 cyl shows a conventional transfer case below the engine. The PTU for the 2.3 l 4 cyl engines appears to be the same.
But the software implementation has to be different: the hybrid version has to allow for battery only ops while the conventional one only has to allow for throttle position.
I object to what he purports to say as if it's fact. He doesn't even have an FEH and comes on and posts stuff as if he is the be all & end all of things hybrid.
I've caught him on stuff that was wrong in the past.
Sorry, I tend to ignore those "catches" unless correct, corrective, information is supplied to support the "you're wrong" statements.
After the third time I put him on my ignore list and so only see his stuff when someone quotes it.
As an RO you know manuals. I've been a ChEng, CO, CO Tender w/Nuc Repair fac on board.
I'll have to research the conventional side of the books as I just haven't paid attention to them. The Pix they show for the 6 cyl shows a conventional transfer case below the engine. The PTU for the 2.3 l 4 cyl engines appears to be the same.
But the software implementation has to be different: the hybrid version has to allow for battery only ops while the conventional one only has to allow for throttle position.
#29
06-03-2009, 05:59 PM
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Beautiful Pacific NW
Posts: 1,678
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
What I meant was that you have TC and AWD on a Fusion. A AWD Edge is the same system as a 4WD FE/FEH and the rearend looks exactly the same. The AWD Fusion altough looks different, it probably uses the same ITCC or sililiar as the 4WD FE/FEH.
The shop manual for the FE/FEH calls it 4WD system in the index and page headings but calls it AWD in the text.
The shop manual for the FE/FEH calls it 4WD system in the index and page headings but calls it AWD in the text.
There is a HUGE difference in the wintertime adverse conditions driving and handling dynamics.
On top of all that many of us old folks would immediately assume base RWD for a vehicle marketing as 4WD when it might actually be a patently unsafe F/awd vehicle.
Look at the design of the Acura SH-AWD system for an example of a F/awd system done correctly. It a real shame that they still haven't figured out how to build a DFI engine.
#30
06-03-2009, 06:18 PM
Re: TC and F/awd vehicles.
wptski,
I object to what he purports to say as if it's fact. He doesn't even have an FEH and comes on and posts stuff as if he is the be all & end all of things hybrid.
I've caught him on stuff that was wrong in the past. After the third time I put him on my ignore list and so only see his stuff when someone quotes it.
I object to what he purports to say as if it's fact. He doesn't even have an FEH and comes on and posts stuff as if he is the be all & end all of things hybrid.
I've caught him on stuff that was wrong in the past. After the third time I put him on my ignore list and so only see his stuff when someone quotes it.
I see now that he started this thread, what a waste.
My owners manual has an interesting comment on the instrument cluster; the "slipping car" icon is listed as ABS active / Traction Control (If equipped). I am wondering if the AWD versions even implement TC.
Last edited by stevedebi; 06-03-2009 at 06:27 PM.
