Why doesn't ICE cut off automatically when coasting?
#21
03-28-2007, 06:08 PM
Re: Why doesn't ICE cut off automatically when coasting?
Just curious.
#22
03-28-2007, 07:05 PM
Re: Why doesn't ICE cut off automatically when coasting?
Following slide is came from...
http://john1701a.com/prius/presentat...ntation_01.htm
Ken@Japan
#23
03-28-2007, 09:08 PM
Re: Why doesn't ICE cut off automatically when coasting?
The "towing in neutral" doesn't refer to towing companies....it means you can tow it behind another vehicle or RV in Neutral. Since you have the keys you can put it into neutral before towing it. Tow truck operators SHOULD be using dollies to get all 4 wheels off the ground before towing any 4WD vehicle.
#24
03-29-2007, 04:40 AM
Re: Why doesn't ICE cut off automatically when coasting?
The "towing in neutral" doesn't refer to towing companies....it means you can tow it behind another vehicle or RV in Neutral. Since you have the keys you can put it into neutral before towing it. Tow truck operators SHOULD be using dollies to get all 4 wheels off the ground before towing any 4WD vehicle.
Just curious...
Roch
#25
03-29-2007, 07:43 AM
Re: Why doesn't ICE cut off automatically when coasting?
No. It is explained in this and other threads in depth. Basically, if you put the "transmission" into neutral it disconnects the drive shafts thereby allowing all 4 wheels to turn without doing any damage to the system. If a tow truck comes along and snatches up your 4WD vehicle without dollies and without shifting into neutral (since the driver doesn't have your keys) it will damage the vehicle.
#26
03-29-2007, 11:03 AM
Re: Why doesn't ICE cut off automatically when coasting?
No. It is explained in this and other threads in depth. Basically, if you put the "transmission" into neutral it disconnects the drive shafts thereby allowing all 4 wheels to turn without doing any damage to the system. If a tow truck comes along and snatches up your 4WD vehicle without dollies and without shifting into neutral (since the driver doesn't have your keys) it will damage the vehicle.
Thanks,
Roch
#27
03-29-2007, 02:24 PM
Re: Why doesn't ICE cut off automatically when coasting?
Gary, I have to also say that key-off above 40 MPH is a bad idea.
Coasting at high speeds in N, the ICE will rev up in RPM to match the speed of the wheels / MG2, or the MG1 will spin up the ICE to match the speed of the wheels / MG2.
With key off, you remove the car's ability to do this.
Below 40 MPH, this car can be a 2 part system, or 3 part system.
Above 40 MPH, this car must be a 3 part system.
MG1 / MG2 / ICE
Also, the "tow behind at any speed" does not apply to your case. When you tow behind, you gradually move from zero to 75 MPH and slowly go back down to zero. And when you tow behind, you never EVER shift to Drive, nor do you ever restart the car in motion. And there is a special procedure you do with the transmission before you tow behind. You do NOT just stick the key in and shift to N. Some people wonder if all the electronics will drain the battery if they leave the key in when they tow.
You Don't put the key into the car at all when you tow!!!
So all the electronics are 100% off when you tow.
( Didn't you know that Gary? )
Just because something is possible, does not make it a good idea.
P.S. Engineers are smart. Don't you think they would have loved to market a 50 MPG SUV by allowing automatic neutral coasting and EV at any speed?
There are very good reasons the car works like it does. Giving you limitations to "discover" and fix for Ford was not one of them!
Coasting at high speeds in N, the ICE will rev up in RPM to match the speed of the wheels / MG2, or the MG1 will spin up the ICE to match the speed of the wheels / MG2.
With key off, you remove the car's ability to do this.
Below 40 MPH, this car can be a 2 part system, or 3 part system.
Above 40 MPH, this car must be a 3 part system.
MG1 / MG2 / ICE
Also, the "tow behind at any speed" does not apply to your case. When you tow behind, you gradually move from zero to 75 MPH and slowly go back down to zero. And when you tow behind, you never EVER shift to Drive, nor do you ever restart the car in motion. And there is a special procedure you do with the transmission before you tow behind. You do NOT just stick the key in and shift to N. Some people wonder if all the electronics will drain the battery if they leave the key in when they tow.
You Don't put the key into the car at all when you tow!!!
So all the electronics are 100% off when you tow.
( Didn't you know that Gary? )
Just because something is possible, does not make it a good idea.
P.S. Engineers are smart. Don't you think they would have loved to market a 50 MPG SUV by allowing automatic neutral coasting and EV at any speed?
There are very good reasons the car works like it does. Giving you limitations to "discover" and fix for Ford was not one of them!
Again, you are completely wrong about the Key not being needed to place the FEH/MMH in Neutral. You must used the key to put the ignition in the on position and press on the brake pedal to move the shifter to Neutral. You can turn the ignition and ACC off, but you can't remove the key. My guess is that this is to prevent someone stealing the vehicle by towing it away without a key.
John, if you have any documentation of anything of interest to your claims, please post them or their location. It would be of special interest to me to know where you found this special proceedure on placing the FEH/MMH in neutral without the key.
GaryG
#28
03-31-2007, 12:40 AM
Hybrid and Ethanol Expert
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: All over the Central U.S.
Posts: 3,616
Re: Why doesn't ICE cut off automatically when coasting?
Again, you are completely wrong about the Key not being needed to place the FEH/MMH in Neutral. You must used the key to put the ignition in the on position and press on the brake pedal to move the shifter to Neutral. You can turn the ignition and ACC off, but you can't remove the key. My guess is that this is to prevent someone stealing the vehicle by towing it away without a key.
GaryG
GaryG
If I PROVE to you that there is a special way to do a tow behind, with all 4 wheels on the ground, that DOES NOT require a key to ever be present, a way that IS a design feature, and the way you are SUPPOSED to tow the car, with zero electronics active so as not drain either battery, a way that requires no special modifications to the car... just the knowledge of the correct method... if I tell you all that... will you quit posting here and only post on the "other" site for hypermilers? The "other" site you like is a better place for your wild ideas IMHO.
You can get great MPG. But that story is getting old.
You still do not know very basic information of how the internal parts of the FEH work!
-John
P.S. If you damaged / broke your FEH doing unusual things to it, would you even admit to it? Just curious.
#29
03-31-2007, 10:24 AM
Re: Why doesn't ICE cut off automatically when coasting?
This is only YOUR interpretation. I say you do not understand what you read. "Disengagement", "isolated"... these terms do not mean what you think. I have many reasons and 2 years of driving to believe you are incorrect. "Isolated" for example refers to electrically isolated, not mechanically. You assume things incorrectly.
The reason is simple! For EMERGENCY use only! It is possible for even a FEH to stall while in motion. It should be a once, if ever event. This is not a cool "feature"!
I am afraid YOU are very wrong. Wrong indeed. The statement above proves you are arrogant ( as others have already stated elsewhere ) and ignorant at topics that do not include "hypermiling".
If I PROVE to you that there is a special way to do a tow behind, with all 4 wheels on the ground, that DOES NOT require a key to ever be present, a way that IS a design feature, and the way you are SUPPOSED to tow the car, with zero electronics active so as not drain either battery, a way that requires no special modifications to the car... just the knowledge of the correct method... if I tell you all that... will you quit posting here and only post on the "other" site for hypermilers? The "other" site you like is a better place for your wild ideas IMHO.
You can get great MPG. But that story is getting old.
You still do not know very basic information of how the internal parts of the FEH work!
-John
P.S. If you damaged / broke your FEH doing unusual things to it, would you even admit to it? Just curious.
The reason is simple! For EMERGENCY use only! It is possible for even a FEH to stall while in motion. It should be a once, if ever event. This is not a cool "feature"!
I am afraid YOU are very wrong. Wrong indeed. The statement above proves you are arrogant ( as others have already stated elsewhere ) and ignorant at topics that do not include "hypermiling".
If I PROVE to you that there is a special way to do a tow behind, with all 4 wheels on the ground, that DOES NOT require a key to ever be present, a way that IS a design feature, and the way you are SUPPOSED to tow the car, with zero electronics active so as not drain either battery, a way that requires no special modifications to the car... just the knowledge of the correct method... if I tell you all that... will you quit posting here and only post on the "other" site for hypermilers? The "other" site you like is a better place for your wild ideas IMHO.
You can get great MPG. But that story is getting old.
You still do not know very basic information of how the internal parts of the FEH work!
-John
P.S. If you damaged / broke your FEH doing unusual things to it, would you even admit to it? Just curious.
Many places in the '05 Workshop Manual state this including Section 307-01B-2 under the eCVT Chapter. Under "Neutral" it states:
"With the range selector in NEUTRAL:
* no power flows through the transmission.
* the output shaft is disengaged from the drive wheels."
In addition, the owner manual states the you can tow the FEH with all four wheels down safely up to 75mph in neutral.
Note that the manual states "no power flows through the transmission". Does that agree with your definition above about isolation?. What do you think disengaged from the drive wheels means?
Please don't call me names, it's a violation of the rules here on GH. Where is a moderator when you need one around here!
If you don't want to provide us with your source of the information of this special procedure for putting the the FEH/MMH in Neutral without a key, fine.
GaryG
#30
04-01-2007, 04:08 PM
Re: Why doesn't ICE cut off automatically when coasting?
GPSman1 Quote
"If I PROVE to you that there is a special way to do a tow behind, with all 4 wheels on the ground, that DOES NOT require a key to ever be present, a way that IS a design feature, and the way you are SUPPOSED to tow the car, with zero electronics active so as not drain either battery, a way that requires no special modifications to the car... just the knowledge of the correct method... if I tell you all that... will you quit posting here and only post on the "other" site for hypermilers? The "other" site you like is a better place for your wild ideas IMHO."
Just did some research on RV owners using the FEH/MMH as a Toad and they all said that you must use the Key to place the vehicle in Neutral. The key must be left in the ignition like I stated before, and the ACC can be turned off. There is a special Neutral kit made for the non-hybrid Escapes automatics, but we're not talking about that.
One person reported that he towed his FEH for 8,000 miles with all 4 wheels down in neutral with no problems. Hope this clears things up for those interested.
GaryG
"If I PROVE to you that there is a special way to do a tow behind, with all 4 wheels on the ground, that DOES NOT require a key to ever be present, a way that IS a design feature, and the way you are SUPPOSED to tow the car, with zero electronics active so as not drain either battery, a way that requires no special modifications to the car... just the knowledge of the correct method... if I tell you all that... will you quit posting here and only post on the "other" site for hypermilers? The "other" site you like is a better place for your wild ideas IMHO."
Just did some research on RV owners using the FEH/MMH as a Toad and they all said that you must use the Key to place the vehicle in Neutral. The key must be left in the ignition like I stated before, and the ACC can be turned off. There is a special Neutral kit made for the non-hybrid Escapes automatics, but we're not talking about that.
One person reported that he towed his FEH for 8,000 miles with all 4 wheels down in neutral with no problems. Hope this clears things up for those interested.
GaryG
