Jason,
Several people typically gather around my 04 Prius at work during lunch break. They always ask what mileage I get. They also ask what other Hybrids are available and how thier mileage compares. I just give them your website and tell them to look at the Real Mileage Database.

I have gotten some feedback from them and some of them get the wrong impression because they don't dig in to look at the data, just the averages. Here are a few examples:

"Looks like you got screwed. You could have gotten an Insight and gotten twice the MPG."

My reply:
The Insights typically do get better mileage, but I need a car that can carry more than two people.

Thier Reply:
"I didn't realize that the Insight was a 2 seater."

"Why on earth did you buy the new Prius HSD when you could have gotten a used Prius TSD and still get 8 MPG better."

My Reply:
The Prius HSD typically gets about 2-4 MPG better MPG than the THD. There are probably not enough data yet to show a good average expectation.


"Why did you take the risk on new technology when you could have gotten a Civic VX? The Civic VX gets 64 MPG!"

My Reply:
I don't know why the Civic VX gets such good MPG. I don't believe that the EPA estimates compare to Prius. There are probably not enough data yet to show a good average expectation.


In every case, I always tell them that they need to look at the data carefully and read the notes. I tell them to research the cars before coming to any conclusion. The funny thing is that the person who commented above about the Insight had visited both the Toyota and Honda Websites. Even though he had read about the Insight thoroughly on the Honda website and even viewed the Honda comparison of Insight to Prius, nowhere was it mentioned that Insight was a 2 seater!

By the way, I love the monthly MPG graph you just added!

Dan
04 Silver #7
EMAXX
3900+ Miles
LMPG 49.5
LMPGPPA 5*49.5. = 247.5 (Lifetime Miles Per Gallon Per Persons Accommodatable)

Hi Dan:

___Very well written post …

___A few items to add for comments directed your way. First off, the 04 Prius is a hell of an automobile that has amenities the Insight has never and will never have. Not only have your co-workers discovered that the Insight is a 2 seater, it isn’t even made anymore. There won’t be any more Insight’s made for the 2004 MY anyway. It was built for just one purpose in mind and as you know, it was to excel at fuel economy. There is no way an Insight could be built for < $30,000 - $50,000 given a mostly aluminum construction and low volume production line. The 01-03 Prius and the Honda VX aren’t made anymore either. The mileage numbers posted from the Insighter’s shown are from some of the best mileage drivers in the world. No one drives like an Insight driver pushing the fuel economy envelope that I know of. A few exceptions abound I am sure but not like a high mileage Insighter? I just don’t see them in my 750,000 miles of travel around the Chicagoland in my lifetime. Lastly, 45 mpg for the Prius is a heck of an average considering its size and amenities. If someone complains about that, they only need to look at there own real world averages.

___As for the 01-03 Prius’ and one of the VX’s great mileage, look who was driving at least one of each of them. Again, you are looking at one of the best mileage drivers in the world with years of experience at pushing that envelope. The VX was a specialty high mileage type Honda from way back. Many of its fuel saving economies technologies are still in use in the Insight, Prius, and HCH.

___Lastly, it won’t be long and your own real world average will be up in the 52 - 55 lmpg range by all appearances. Not many can say that either ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Thank you for your concern.

First of all, I do know about a few problems concerning the current data, and will mention how I propose to fix them.

First, there are people who have not "switched over" to the new interface, which asks for best/worst and (not recommended) a LMPG. Cars like the following: https://www.greenhybrid.com/explore/mileage...ails.php?cid=50 therefore do not adequately display mileage trends, and I have resorted to personal messaging these individuals to nicely ask if they would please update their car. I had one person respond negatively, however, who thought this was an unfriendly guesture. I hope that once the changeover is complete, there will be no more "drama."

Secondly, the sample size is too small for some cars. The following car: https://www.greenhybrid.com/explore/mileage...ails.php?cid=70 has but 0.7 gallons worth of data. That's the ONLY Civic. Besides having the same "problem" as mentioned above, their sample size makes them look like a higher-mileage-vehicle than the Prius. I initially had a sample size bar for each of the cars on the main graph, but since I can't quite put a 100 million value for non-hybrids, I took it off Would it help if I added a transparent bar over the current ones with, perhaps, miles driven as a sample size?

Lastly, I think most of these problems will iron themselves out over time. Once there is more traffic and more data, the averages will become REAL averages.

Is there anything else I can do?

Before I read this thread, I, too, had begun asking some people to update their mileage data so that they can take advantage of the new features.

Some features may not have been available at the time they put in their data so it now seems to be in the wrong place.

For example they may have originally put in their highest mileage trip in the tankful area, because at the time, that seemed the logical place to put it.

I hope people are not put off by that request. Rather I hope they see the value to the community as a whole.

Jason,
You are doing a fine job. The only thing I would suggest is that on the summary listing, under Model, include the year, transmission type, body style, the number of passengers and EPA estimated MPG.

For Example:

2004 Toyota Prius HSD
CVT, 5 dr, 5 pass
61 City, 51 Hwy

or

2004 Honda Insight
Manual, 3 dr, 2 pass
60 City, 66 Hwy

This way, you can compare apples to apples and have some idea how the car is performing with respect to EPA estimates. If someone sees 106 MPG, but a 66 MPG estimate, they will probably at least question the data. Right now they have no reason to question anything. After all, it is the "REAL MILEAGE" database. From the name it sounds like someone went through the trouble of verifying the data.

Dan

Hi Jason:

___You E-Mailed the wrong guy. Rick’s mileage over the last 2 years is exactly what he receives and posted. I have seen the pic’s of his dash. The two you need to go after are the 106 mpg Insight and the 75 mpg Prius. These are both one-off segments and are not representative of lmpg or even year over year mpg averages.

___Krousdb, the Insight and most other std. ICE automobiles are quite capable of crushing EPA estimates. The 04 Prius in particular isn’t given it travels ~ ½ the EPA City loop on the pack. 100 + mpg out of an Insight in warmer temperatures is practically a given if you drive with the techniques already posted around the net time and time again. A low to high 80’s average is quite doable over a one year time frame in many warmer locales especially. The 04 Prius looks like it is going to top out around 60 - 65 mpg lmpg or year over year with a high mileage driver behind the windscreen. Maybe a bit more from someone in a warmer climate possibly?

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

Xcel,

Rick posted hi's and lo's if you'll look at his tank information. Wayne, with the 75mpg Prius knows about his data -- just hasn't responded lately about changing it to a Best trip -- I may do it for him.

So you know, I'm attempting to curve the mileage-month graph if it starts acting up.

Hi Jason:

___All I am saying is that you attempted to tell someone with the experience and skill the likes of Mario Andretti and/or Jeff Gordon on how to input data about racing CART/INDY or NASCAR. This is the one guy providing actual real world capabilities and techniques as well as the exact person everyone here should listen to in particular. His LMPG is 88.x something as of this writing and this includes the first 40,000 + miles when he was just an enthusiast looking for more … I do hope there is a lmpg method to the madness as that is how he posted his lmpg into InsightCentral.net’s own lmpg database.

___I am still a bit confused as for tank data and such for other automobiles myself. I entered in the MDX’s tank high but it is no where to be found? I will try again in a few days to see. I can’t wait to throw in a decent run on the 03 Ranger XLT when it warms up and I get over 5,000 miles on it. It only has 500 right now but wait until I hit a nice 36 - 38 mpg run over 195 miles in it later this summer … At least I hope that is what it is capable of ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

xcel,

He can input his LMPG in the database, which will override any data he has entered, though it will still be visible. This would probably be his best route, as he can also insert his 40k odometer reading and it will all calculate out fine. No one has used a LMPG yet because you'd see it -- it will have an asterick.

Secondly, it's set up right now to only show on the main page cars that have actual tank or LMPG data. If you enter either, it will show up. The problem is that if I DO show that XLT on the main page, every column will be blank, and the only information it will have is the mileage for that one trip on the detailed page.

As a test, create a car named "test" and create a LMPG/odometer reading.

Hi Jason:

___I did input the override lmpg in the other night and it did override the data. Unfortunately, it didn’t look right afterwards so I replaced the data I had in it previously. This is why you are seeing the same 78.0 lmpg without the override. I am not really sure what to include and I have a 10 - 14 day commuting schedule coming up which will change it yet again? The Insighter’s have lmpg shown on one of the game gauges and it’s too bad there isn’t a place to input this into your database and display properly. It isn’t something that needs to be calculated, it is a part of the Insight that shows when looking at the odometer screen. I don’t know how else to explain it other then it is usually accurate to within 1 or 2% of actual either way tank after tank and it shows up whenever you glance at the odometer … What else can I say. If you car doesn’t have an odometer, you would say what the #$*%? In an Insight, you may as well say that because it is in the odometer screen. I believe you might be able to not show the lmpg by programming it but that would be like programming your car not to show segment or tank mileage or the odometer itself …

___As for the MDX, I have no idea where that data entry went? I want to enter in the Corolla as well since its starting to warm up and 50 mpg is not out of the question in anther month or two …

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Hunt Club Farms Landscaping Ltd.
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net

xcel,

First off, what do you mean it "didnt' look right" when you entered your LMPG? I tested it when I developed it, and it looked fine.

Secondly, if it changes all you need to do is update the LMPG. If you can add your tank data, all the better.

For the MDX, have you defined either a LMPG or tank data? If not, your car won't be on the main page because there won't be anything to show! The main page is only for overall averages, and you wouldn't have one.

Jason, I really like the graphics you've added to the milage database.

The graphs provide a nice positive feedback to the people pumping frequent data into the system rather than posting one sweet tank.

So far only a few users posted data for last year. (I got my Prius Dec 31, so all my fillups have been this year). Eventually, you might want to rotate the monthly graph so the current month is displayed all the way to the far right. That way you could show the 11 previous months in unbroken order.

Also, it would be nice if the per car download stuck the car ID in as part of the filename, so it doesn't accidently replace the full database download.

Thanks for the comments.
To all: I have decided to STOP requesting changes to the database by those who have entered data. I will either do this myself manually or not have it done at all. Rick, though I have not heard from him, has removed all 3 of his vehicles from the database.

I have added my insight back in over a couple of days and am now starting to check out the threads. I removed the cars I had in the database because I had only entered in a few tanks. I think Jason has provided a fine resource here for all to learn from (One that is dedicated to a variety of Hybrids and fuel effecient cars). I had to wait nearly a month to get my insight (bought it new on ebay but they had to add cruise control) and during that time I learned a great deal including the idea of logging every mile driven. In my log I record the odometer reading, trip b (I use this one for tanks), mpg per the car computer, and a manual mpg along with the date. As a result I do not have info on temps, traffic, fuel prices, etc.... I tried to enter the data in accurately but neither my mileage (a couple thousand short), #tanks (3 short) or lmpg (89.3 per my car) match my database. I am sure I put in some bad numbers or skipped over a entry in the 95 tanks I did enter. Additionally there are some things you showld know about my fuel economy.
1. I drive 500 miles on my commute. Nearly all of it is on the Interstate
2. Other than my first few months of ownership I drive around 55 not 65-70.
3. My monthly results are not weighted evenly. THat is if you look at Dec, Jan and Feb you will see those months have very few entrys. After driving my Insight in its first snow storm and picking up several nicks in the paint due to sanding trucks I decided to drive a Civic VX when the weather was bad. When I drive the Insight in the winter it is usually when we have abnormally warm weather. Additionally the Apr - Jun values are a bit lower as the first few months I had the car I was still driving 70 mph or better. My last tank in which I got less than 80 mpg was 8 July 2001. Because of these abnormalities my data does not show a significant reduction during the winter but I know one would exist if I drove equal mileage each month of the year.

Anyway great database Jason. I will look to put some Prius info in next (a lot fewer entries but we do log the mpg just wish it had a lmpg like the insight). I don't keep a fuel log for the Civic VX but over 235K miles I am fairly certain it would have a 50 mpg year round average. I'll leave it out of the database unless I collect more than a few tanks of gas.

Dan,
As has been pointed out a Prius is far more upscale than a Civic VX or Insight. We expect a 04 Prius for my wife on 19 April. I think the Prius is the right choice for in town driving and a manual Hybrid is a btter choice for the highway. Have fun, RIck

I'm glad you appreciate it, Rick. Your data will be of great use to us, though it definitely skews the Insight average a bit :)

Rick,
Thanks for the info. I noticed from your tank data that you live in SC. Where? I will be vacationing in Myrtle Beach the week of April 3rd. Maybe we could meet halfway? I would like to see your Insight and discuss driving techniques.

Dan

I was thinking of adding a small feature to the database, and would like to double-check it here before taking any steps. It's pretty creative, but I'm not positive it woudl work well. It's a bit abstract, so please try to stay with me.

You may have noticed that during each tank, I calcuate the gallons of gas consumed. I believe that with this data, I will be able to find the "safe" amount of gas that the user can fill to the next tank. If each number represents a tank:

1 - 2 = #
This number represents the amount of padding the tank has. If it's a positive number, the second tank was filled less than the first tank. That means there's definitely more room. If the number is negative, tank 2 holds the most amount of gas that the server can comprehend as "full."

I then perform this difference for each tank. 3 - 2, 4 - 3, etc. I add them all up. this will give me a small positive or negative number.

If it turns out to be positive, I can add the number to the last gas usage number. For example, if the last tank used 9.3 gallons, and my aggregate number is .7 gallons, I get 10 gallons. I can safely assume that tank had "at least" 10 gallons in it before that last data. If the number is negative, that means the last gas usage is the highest usage of gas, ever.

How is this useful? I can ask the user of the car how much gas they pumped in the last time they went to the pump. On a timeline, this is the gas they pumped AFTER the last data entry. If it's less than that 10 gallons, say 8.7, I can say, "You could have safely pumped 1.3 gallons more."

It seems like an extremely complex way to get a minimum calculation. It isn't even perfect unless the tank overfills :) I'm just trying to get a feel for if this type of statistic could be useful at all.

Do you think I should bother making any calculations of the sort, or is it just a waste of time?

I do not think it would be needed at this point in time.
The problem the user may run into is when the tank data is lost and consecutive tanks cannot be recorded.
Take a look at my data for example.
When I first got my car in October I didn't always record my gas tanks. In fact, I actually had more written down on a piece of paper at one time, but have since lost it I still had a couple from last year around so I entered them anyway just for fun.
Let's say I misplace my next tank fiill up slip before I can enter it here. That means that I'll end up skipping the recording of one tank, meaning that the new calculation you mention would not work out any longer. I know I'm human and will lose a receipt sometime.
So I woud say skip it. But that's just me.

I agree. At first it seemed like a good idea :)

I think I mainly need to concentrate on article content. Hot_Georgia is currently writing a HCH review. Besides that, we need to get some writers!

Dan,
I live in Greenville SC. I am usually there Friday-Sunday. By mid April we should have 3 Hybrids to compare/contrast. Have fun, RIck

Rick,
Greenville is quite a hike from Myrtle beach. Probably too far to meet. Maybe some other time. Enjoy your new Prius. Your gonna love it! I am having an incredible tank, 595 miles with 72.0 MPG average. Looks like I will make 70/700. I know that it doesn't compare to your Insight, but probably one of the better tanks for a Prius.

Dan

P.S. Evidently some Insight drivers are not so MPG conscious as you are. I was minding my own business doing 55 on I-79 yesterday when a Dark Silver Insight blew by me like I was standing still. What is the max speed of the Insight anyway?

Dan,
The top speed of the insight is governed at 112 in 3rd gear. I tend to drive near 55 (slowing to 50 on a hill but speeding up to perhaps 65 on the downslope) to maximize my mpg. Have fun, Rick

When I inputted in my two vehicles, I was asked for my highest and lowest mileage trip data. Strangely, I cannot input tenths of a mile, so I had to input the mileage rounded to the nearest whole mile. Since I was asked for mileage, I inputted the furthest and shortest distance on the tank.

Then, when I look up the individual vehicles as listed in the mileage database, instead of highest and lowest mileage, it's listed as Best and Worst trip, alluding to best and worst MPG, unknown if that's for a tankful or for some measured distance. Very confusing.

So which is it? Highest MPG per tank or furthest distance on a tank?

I'm not about to re-enter in all of my tank data (16 for my 2004, 99 for my 2001), is there an easier upload data option?

MRV,

The normal data plots (Add Data) are for tanks. It clearly states this on the page. The "best" and "worst" mileages are simply attributes you can stick to that car and update manually if you so choose. Note that they're only optional. Many like to use it for their best tank (like myself), and others record 30 of their best miles or so. None of it is listed for statistical purposes, and is simply displayed on your detailed page without any calcuations.

Also, what do you mean you could not input tenths? There are two text boxes. The first is for integers and the second allows a tenths place.

I've been using the government statistic of 20.9 mpg for the average car, however I realize that this is probably the average of EPA estimates. Do you have any suggestions as to what figure I can use, instead?

Ah, by "mileage" you really mean "fuel economy." Must really be confusing for those who live in countries that are metric...

When I see "mileage" I think "what my odometer says," which is closer to what you call "distance" on your "Add Tank" page. Most definitions for "mileage" are for length/distance. see: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mileage

On the "Edit Cars" page or the "Add Tank" page, "Distance" is only one text box, so I'm assuming that it only takes integer values (since you clearly have a tenths box for your confusing "mileage" line).

Again, do you have some form of bulk uploader for tank data? (say, upload a comma-separated text file with the data in certain fields?) I really do not want to have to enter 100+ tanks, which is why I went with just the "optional" data entries on the "Edit Cars" page.

unfortunately to post, your site doesn't seem to like my preferred web browser, so I don't think I'll be around much, so my responses will be slower than they'd otherwise would be (have to go load up a different browser when next am able to...)

MRV,

As the database is frequently changed and has custom fields, there is no way to mass upload. It's possible to override your economy/mileage numbers, but this isn't recommended as you'll have no data to back it up.

I suggest inputting your 100 or so tanks over the course of a week or so. It's certainly been done! To make things easier, certain fields will remember what you chose last time so that you don't have to fill them in again :)