Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

Hi,

I need some help. I'm having a hard time selling that driving an hybrid is better for the environment and also that when changed, the battery will not create more pollution than what as been save in fuel efficiency. They don't believe in the fuel saving either.

This debate occurs in a french canadien car forum I'm following. Mostly nobody believe in the good effect you create when you drive an hybrid. They say i'm a fool to drive one.

Is there any official study I could use to back my saying?

Thanks.

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

I wish there was a study handy, and there may be. One this is for sure - the lead-acid 12 volt batteries are far more toxic than the hybrid batteries.

Hope that helped a little...

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

I've heard an argument that it pollutes more with the hybrid battery to manufacture, but NiMH is not toxic and is recycalable.

Delta Flyer has a good point, and perhaps the might think you're loaded down with an out dated bank of lead-acid cells like the old EV's?

If possible, you could always point them to GH and they can see all the info related to these vehicles, or at least the mileage database.

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

I'm not quite sure what you're looking for. Trying www.google.com may help you find what you're looking for as well. (Trying Hybrids greenhouse gases study, for example)

If you're looking for info that the HV batteries aren't toxic, I'm not sure how much straighter from the horses mouth you can get than the battery engineer at Ford, who stated it to me at the Ford Escape Hybrid Experience in Dearborn last summer.

If you're looking for information on the greenhouse gases, and the emissions, the USA EPA websites have some good information there about them. www.epa.gov , www.fueleconomy.gov

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

bon jour Jean,

This is difficult to answer since each hybrid has unique characteristics. But for a general approach, see if the Canadian department of transportation has a definition of the 'average' Canadian car. Then use this as the standard to compare to your HCH. For example, the US average car got ~24 MPG and my Prius is getting 48.7 MPG. Choose the 'average' and use it as a rhetorical hammer. If someone offers a realistic, non-hybrid as an alternative, be courteous and agree that both cars have merit. It is not the 'or' but the 'and'.

Check with Google and search for NiMH and recycle and chemistry. It turns out that NiMH batteries are fairly non-toxic and easily recycled.

Use the GreenHybrid database and say, "Well that is what the drivers are reporting." Do you have something better?

Smile and say "A happy <insert your> L/km fool."

In the model comparision area, I posted some URLs to a US and also a Canadian fleet report of hybrid electric performance. There are many excellent points although I'm more familar with the Prius than the Honda technology.

bonne chance!

Bob Wilson

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

Jean,
The report by the Union of Concerned Scientists titled, "A New Road" has a lot of good information in it. It's a little dated at this point, but it is, I believe, the study that coined a lot of the terminology that's being bantered about, mild hybrid, full hybrid, etc. I could be wrong there, though.

It's not exactly what you're looking for, but it may help. You can download a .pdf copy at http://www.hybridcenter.org/hybrid-c...ad-report.html

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

Thanks for all the information, I'll read and use it to plead my case.

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

I believe that it is spelled out on the Toyota website that they offer a $200 bounty for each returned NiMH battery, and that they do their own recycling.

The issue always reminds me of a post on the Yahoo toyota-prius site, claiming to quote from a newspaper that Prius batteries were hazardously piling up at some landfill. Searching the web, I could find neither the story, nor evidence that the named newspaper actually exists. Was this a "professional troll" sighting? Hmmm.

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/
http://www.environmentaldefense.org/TailpipeTally/

Will allow you to compare emissions among vehicles. Their results do not always agree, though.

I would like to see a definitive accounting of the financial costs associated with CO2 and pollutant emissions. Published studies vary widely, and as you might imagine these are very contentious issues.

DAS

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

If people are already convinced they're right (with no proof), it's not easy to change their minds. Most opinions are usually based on ignorance or emotions, not facts. They see you as the crazy one much like 100's of years ago when "they" said the Earth revolved around the sun and many, many other 'facts' that have been proved wrong over time. The majority has been wrong about many things over the centuries.

Saying that, however, the batteries are recycled at a very high rate just like regular 12V batteries, however the hybrid batteries are less toxic and they last much, much longer than the 12V battery. I read about the hybrid battery recycling from a Toyota spokesperson and other sites. Advances in batteries are coming out almost daily too so who knows what'll be available in next 5-10 yrs. I found this quote:

"More than 97 percent of lead-acid batteries are recycled, according to the Web site of the Chicago-based Battery Council International (BCI). This compares to 55 percent of aluminum beverage cans, 26 percent of glass bottles and 71 percent of newspapers.

The BCI reports on its site that the average new lead-acid battery is composed of 60 percent to 80 percent recycled lead and plastic." The BCI site might be good to cruise.

The article:
http://www.highbeam.com/library/docf...G%3AResult&ao=

For the gas emissions (air pollution), I don't see how they can argue it's bogus as that's the easier part to prove with any smog test. Let them stand behind a regular car and breathe deeply vs. your car :) Many cities have electric buses, UPS is replacing many of their vans with alternative fuel vehicles, etc. so it's not a fad but a reality of the world today. I can't wait to buy an all electric car that drives 400+ miles/recharge. Most people commute less than 100 miles/day anyway.

Mileage does vary with drivers (and road condition, weather) but it does with gas-only cars too. I've read a few stories of Prius owners getting horrible mileage like high 30's but I am sure that's rare. I do think people are misled somewhat by the dealers into thinking that they can drive just as they do now and get the sticker mileage. We all know by now how bogus the EPA sticker mileage is especially for city driving (you can search on this site for that discussion and links to news stories). Even with all that, the huge majority of owners exprience higher mpg and some who are willing to alter their driving habits a lot, experience much greater mpg. I just read of a real road trip with a group of Prius drivers that got over 100mpg - more to prove a point than to say people should drive like they did. If driving 'normal' = 50mpg that's still fantastic.

http://www.toyota.com/hybridsynergyv.../marathon.html

Don't waste your time convincing these people, they've already made up their minds. Just be content in knowing you're saving gas and helping the environment. People complain about spending more for a hybrid and want to know their return on investment, but they never ask that question when they pay $$ for options like navigation systems, heated leather seats, etc. so why is a hybrid option any different. I'm sure in 5-10 years things will be very different as more cars will be hybrids of some sort, car shapes will change to support higher mpg too. I don't expect the oil companies to let gas prices decrease significantly in the future.

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

Just found this one, pretty good about recycling batteries and they mention that same skeptics you know about "yeh but the batteries will pollute landfills."
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005...we_be_wo_1.php

I guess your group will have to come up with other reasons that aren't so easy to disprove :)

Deb

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

Where is the landfill with the old Prius hybrid electric batteries that I could dig up?

The ones on Ebay are asking $1,000 and $1,800.

Bob Wilson

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

Very well put. thank you.

FWIW, I use the same 'option package' argument constantly- it has never failed to stop a skeptic dead in their tracks. At least MY option package has a HOPE of recouping the cost.

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

Thanks, I just edited answer #370 to the "real hybrid owner" question:

"370) skeptics are anxious to share mytical problems about your hybrid."

Bob Wilson

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

It may have stopped them in their tracks but not likely because it made sense to them. It certainly doesn't to me, I can comprehend features such as reducing emissions for earth conscious reasons, or reduce foreign dependency, but buying a hybrid won't be decided on those factors.

For most people fuel consumption is a cost, and to us recouping is the only incentive of a hybrid.

For me getting a 2wd 2.7L Tacoma was a no brainer. It did require getting a model that isn't available in Colorado traded from another region which wasn't easy. Costs was $5600 LESS than the 4wd 4L and I'm getting 27mpg after 6000 miles, compared to max 20mpg with the more expensive truck. Far better for me and my needs than any hybrid. I'd like to see a Tacoma hybrid but if it doesn't pay for itself, no thanks.

You can compare the hybrid option to other options like larger engines, or leather, or stereo, but none of the other options ever were intended to have a payback potential.

If you're saying a hybrid wasn't intended to have a payback, then I and most of the population just don't get it.

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

One of the curious aspects of driving a high MPG vehicle is the price of gas has become less important, small change. But by all means requirements should drive an individual's purchasing decision.

In my case, I'm getting a fuel savings that pays my return on investment. But then, I got a good deal on a used car and my savings comes without any tax breaks.

Since getting 03 Prius, I've learned the total cost of ownership appears to be lower than originally expected due to lower maintenance costs and apparently, higher resale value (per Kelly Blue Book.) It doesn't hurt that I'm getting better than EPA MPG and am working on modifications that will improve it further.

One of my first requirements was a modification having nothing to do with MPG but rather emergency power. My second modification, use of synthetic transaxle oil, fit within the normal maintenance schedule and appears to be making a modest improvement in MPG.

Different requirements would drive different choices. Our family has two adults, one retired, and a small dog and no big loads to haul around. I have a 10-13 mile, daily commute route and the hybrid-electric has turned out to be an excellent commuting vehicle. The hybrid-electric city mileage allows taking urban short cuts without a fuel cost penalty and this shortens the commute distance by 3 miles. The shorter commute route cancels the time spent on a slower street and reduces weekly commute distance. This has been a win-win decision.

Still, I don't presume to speak for the "most people" family, just ours. For those who take a different approach, Mr. People's family is welcome to pay their money and get what they paid for.

Bob Wilson

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

Good question. As I said before, at the time of the posting I could find no evidence. Just now I went through only the first 300 of the 130,000 google returns for 'prius battery landfill'. Then I gave up.

IIRC the original (mythical?) posting referred to MN, MI, or WI, so it's going to be a long drive for either of us.

All the Prius batteries I have seen sold on ebay were in the $300-$800 range, except for one $42 plus shipping, stated as having a failed module. Maybe I shoulda bit on that one. Sigh. The electric vehicle DIYers use them. One college built an electric airplane with them.

DAS

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

Who? When? URL?

Bob Wilson

Re: Study or proof that driving an hybrid is better than driving a non-hybrid?
 

That so many people here are discussing that it is such a common and often frustrating question about "paying for itself" or "recouping the cost" gives me confidence that my presumption isn't wrong.;)

And I'm considering synthetic fluids for my differential and 5-spd, and I've been using mobil 1 since the first oil change. Even with a scanguage it is hard to quantify the effects, I may go back to regular oil as a test, though I also expect engine longevity to improve with synthetic. And with 100,000 mile change intervals the synthetic gear lub is worth a try.