Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

First a little background

HCH I, CVT, 2003

Battery Pack was replaced around 95,000 Miles. Note: there was never a battery problem. Turned out to be a bad relay. But it was all under warranty and I got a free battery so I never complained.

Present Day:

My car has been running great and I’m now at 160k Miles. The other night the 12Volt Battery Light came on and then the car died. If this had been a regular car I would have sworn it was the alternator. If you charge the 12V battery the car will run for a little while and then die.

Here is the crazy part though. There are no check engine lights nor has the IMA light came on. So I take that to mean the battery pack is just fine. In addition the pack is not that old.

Any thoughts? I have a buddy who is a former Honda Mechanic. Him and a buddy of his who still works at Honda took a look at it. Their conclusion is that I should replace/rebuild the battery but they fully admit that the problem has them stumped.

The next step is taking it to the Honda dealership….But frankly they are not too good with hybrids. They already replace the battery pack once when it was not a problem. I’m trying to educate myself a little before paying them a visit.

Jacob

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Have you tried replacing your 12V battery?
Don't forget to write down your radio code if you do so.

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Replaced the battery several months ago becasue of an unrealted problem. Just to be sure I took the battery to autozone and it checked out OK.

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

The HCH doesn't have an alternator. The 12V battery is charged via the IMA system with a DC-DC converter. I'm not an expert but this old thread explains it somewhat and you can Google for further info.

https://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/...ifespan-16762/

You mentioned the 12V battery was replaced recently. If you did it yourself did you check the cables? I mention this because I recently had to change the negative cable in my 2003 HCH because it was badly frayed (almost broken) near where it connects to the transmission housing. You might want to check that before going to the dealer.

Good luck...

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

I'll check the battery cables today. Didn't think about that one.

I suspect its the DC to DC converter based on articles explaining how the IMA system. works. My service tech buddies "claim" that the DC to DC converte is part of the battery pack and that the dealership just replaces the whole pack rather than replacing any components. If you get online you can buy the DC to DC converter BUT its 800 bucks. Thats a little high to randomly replace.

Anyone had similar problems? Anyone had a DC to Converter replaced rather than simply having the whole pack replaced?

Also anyone know what the warrenty is on a honda replacement battery pack? It would be awesome if you got another 80k!

Thanks

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Update:

We checked the battery cables and they are ok. But on a more interesting note my mechanic found a guy willing to sell us a DC Converter for less than 500. Here is the best part.....If the converter does not fix the problem they guy will let us return the part.

I also found out that Honda Replaced Battery packs have a 36k/3year warranty. No good for me...But maybe that info will help out someone else.

I'll post the results when the part comes in.....

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Hey Everyone

Its been a while but I wanted to post an update. We tried the new DC to DC converter and it DID NOT fix the problem.

The guy who sold us the DC to DC converter says he can rebuild the battery for 1400 and will warrenty the the battery. BUT will not promise that it fixes the car.

What bothers me is that there is no IMA light or engine failure code.

SO I have two questions. Has anyone ever had a bad IMA battery but had no indication via IMA light, engine liht, etc?

Second question does any have any recomendations for a battery rebuilder cheaper than 1400?

Thanks
Jacob

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Have you tried asking over at:

http://www.hybrid-battery-repair.com/hch/index.html

Maybe he'd have some ideas regarding your situation.
Does the car throw any diagnostic error codes? That could help narrow down what the problem is.

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Hello Everyone!

So my car is still sitting dead in the driveway. Honda pretty much just wants to start randomly replacing stuff. It really bothers me that they want to replace the battery BUT none of the rebuild palces will touch it unless you are actually getting an IMA light which I am not.

Any advice is much apprciated. I'm considerign turning my HCH into a giagantic fish bowl at this point.

Jacob

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

my advice (off the record) is to replace that hybrid system with a conventional SI drivetrain and Harness/ECU(hello front clip) then be done with it ^^

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Going back to your first post, you said they replaced the IMA battery, but it turned out that the problem was a bad relay. Did the car exhibit the same symptoms back then (before the IMA battery was changed) that you are having now? Just wondering if it's the relay acting up again.

If you can get a look at the Service Manual (try at your dealership's parts department; at my dealership they have a shelf full of manuals there). It should be section 4 that deals with the starting system. There are numerous checks that can be done, step by step, to determine the problem. But one of them deals with the starter cut relay. I'm wondering if this is the relay that got replaced previously, and maybe it's a problem again now.

just a guess.

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

I appreciate you updating this thread as you find out things. It's bad that it's happening to you, but will be interesting to see what the problem eventually turns out to be.

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

MLTTASK- Thanks for the support....This has been painful.

Gairwyn - Good thought. But this problem is somewhat different. Although equally bizzare.

My first IMA problem started by the IMA light coming on briefly. It would then turn off. The car worked fine for a few weeks with the IMA light going off and on. Then one day the car was dead. I jumped it and it ran fine but it would occasionaly not start. I finally got it over to the dealship while the light was on. I don't remmber the code but the Honda techs said I needed to repalce the battery. They replaced it. Car worked fine then started misbehaving after a few days. While the honda tech was replacing the battery AGAIN! He noticed a cracked...yes litteraly cracked relay. It was the cooling fan relay. He replaced it and the car worked fine....up untill this most recent set of events.

I will try the service manual thing. But from what I have seen even the service manuals suck for this hybrid. Its been made very apparent that honda does not want there techs messing with the IMA system. They probally have good reasons for that. ....Just sucks for me.

Jacob

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

All:

My problem has finally been solved. It ended up being a very simple fix although it took a long time and me being really stubborn to get it fixed.
Final Answer: A broke/loose pin on the ECM!
I finally convinced Honda to go old school and troubleshoot the system rather than just replacing stuff and they found it pretty fast. Final cost was 100 bucks. Although in retrospect the Honda dealer is the only person who ever disconnected the ECM computer……So they most likely broke it a while back….I didn’t think to complain though I was just happy to have my car working again.

Jacob

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Has anyone come up with a conversion kit to run 100K+ miles HCH (post IMA battery failure ($3K), post DC-to-DC converter failure ($800)...post hybrid failure ...can't/don't want to figure it out and can't find a non dealer mechanic to fix it) to a straight 1.3L powered Civic for us country folks who are willing to downshift if needed? Why waste a perfectly good Honda engine and car due to the charging going through the 144 V IMA battery. Seems like putting an 12V alternator (need a belt and pulley change) on to charge the 12V (so we can use the regular starter and also supply power to the engine spark plugs (are the fuel injector/sparking like a normal non-hybrid for the 1.3L moter?), freezing/programming or building a new ECM/ECU to just stay in the all gas mode, rewire as need to remove the IMA battery and electronics (70 plus pounds estimate), leave the 13 hp motor in place to free wheel (we don't need or want 144V anymore, autostop (never), assisting (never), charging using the 13 hp motor (never), etc.). If it weren't for the electronics/chips/programming probably a lot of shade tree mechanics could do this). No more large orange wires coming from the back!, no more...well it is a hybrid so you better take it back to the dealer. :) Would this be less expensive than dropping in an SI engine, harness, ECU?

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Oh, I forgot the electric power steering. Is the EPS 12V powered?

Hopefully I have not insulted any of the diehard hybrid believers with this and the previous post. :zip: My point is that at some point it does not make sense to fix from a cost stand point problems that that must be fixed to bring back the hybrid capability. But getting extra service from the car in a all gas configuration with the small gas efficient engine seems the right thing to do (if not too expensive).

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Interesting point but it seems to me you would only do this if the IMA system fails completely in a "sweet spot", that is after the warranty has expired but before the car racks up too many miles.

Of course if the IMA system fails under warranty it just makes sense to get it fixed for free.

At the other extreme you have someone like me who since about 170,000 miles has tolerated a "weak" IMA system (light on solid, charge/assist don't function 100%, autostop sporadic, etc..) but the 12V is still being charged by the IMA system, plus it's a standard and I don't mind downshifting either. But the car also has 240,000 miles on it now and I have already decided if the 12V stops charging that will be it. To me it just doesn't make sense to turn that high mileage a car into a non-hybrid.

So to answer the question, I guess maybe if the IMA system failed "completely" on a manual shift 2003 HCH with 100-150,00 miles it might be worth attempting to turn it into a non-hybrid, depending on PITA factor of course.

I suppose if you removed the AC compressor an alternator would mount there without too much trouble. Wiring it and getting the ECU to recognize it are beyond my skill level however. I would also just flip the IMA switch off and leave all the hardware in place. Why bother removing it?

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

To me the issue is the how the hybrid setup (charging and operating "normal" systems like steering, AC, 12V power/charging through the 144 V system with MCMs, BCMs, converters, etc) is just introducing too many failure points that cause you to go back to the dealer for resolution. Also, eliminating these post useful (cost effective repairs don't seem to exist with battery replacement for example being $3K)) hybrid operation (100K miles) would be less worrisome. Not knowing when another piece of the "hybrid" setup is going to fail (and how) while operating in the degraded mode just isn't very desireable. Eliminating as much as possible seems the way to go. Eliminating the IMA battery and electronics from the back seat would also be like removing a 70 pound orangatang (sp?) constant passenger (remember the Clint Eastwood movie and right turn Clyde?). When depending on a 81 hp 1.3 L engine only, 70 lbs could be significant. I would vote for a double pulley system and putting the alternator in the space between the engine and the firewall. I still want my AC here in VA even if I have to run in 2nd gear all the time!
It just seems the mods to do this would be less expensive than most of the repairs to fix the IMA malfunctions (unless it turns out to be a blown fuse on the 100 amp junction board, the IMA battery is still good and I don't fry myself replacing the fuze).

I explained in other posts I have a 03, MT, with no charge showing on the IMA battery on the dashboard, no charging on the IMA battery per the dashboard, 12V battery light coming on below 1200 rpms with good 12V battery installed, 99236 miles, AC compressor not working (related?), engine cooling fan comes on when AC button pressed but clutch on compressor does not engage (could be low freon?, checked AC relay in underhood box by switching with other relays in box (same numbers on relays) and it did not help). Car sat for a while before purchased. Honda service (misnomer?) rep said MCM would /could have lost its memory due to sitting with bad 12V, but I thought these had non-volatile memory chips in them. Otherwise changing out the batteries (12V or 144V) would require a reprogram by the dealer. Don't tell me Honda would do that, please.

Well depending on the results of a road test once I get license plates I may just drive it for the next 250K miles with the IMA and check engine light on and turn the idle up to more than 1200 rpms to keep the 12V charged. Of course no one else in the family will agree to drive it.

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Installed a new 12V battery (51R, 500CCA from Batteries Plus), got license plates, and drove to Advance Auto to use their code reader with reset capability. Dumped the following codes:
P1600 (Manufacturer Control, Aux Inputs, Aux Outputs)
P1575 ( Manufacturer Control Vehicle Speed, Idle Speed Cntl, Aux Inputs)

the same codes I had a "mechanic" dump for me before (without benefit of words). Anyone know what these mean or do I have to go to the Honda dealer and pay them to tell me?

Returned code reader, got into car and started engine (regular 12V starter used) and immediately the IMA and Check engine light lit up again. Shucks!

Took the car for a 60 mile, 60 mph drive and got 59 mpg! Still no charge showing in IMA battery, no IMA charging, no assist and no auto stop. Car still lights the 12V battery light once rpm goes below 1200. Wonder if this is related to the P1575 code, Idle speed Cntl? Car idles at about 1000 rpm with only a slight (less than 50) variation as it idles.

Guess I still need to go behind the back seat and look around. I also noticed elsewhere that the big orange wiring harness has two relays associated with it. Not clear from the diagram on Majestic auto where the relays are located.

Any ideas out there on any of this?:confused:

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

I had these exact same symptoms after I let my 2003 HCH MT sit for about 3 months. No charge/assist and the 12V icon would light at idle.

It sounds off the wall but the way I brought it back to life was the following:

While coming down a long steep hill I pushed the clutch in (tranny in 5th gear), turned the key off for a couple seconds, turned the key back on and waited a couple seconds, popped the clutch back out and boom, the IMA system came back to life.

I can't explain it, don't know why it worked, but it did. Apparently there wasn't anything "blown" and the IMA just needed a kick in the butt to get going again. That was in July 2010 and I'm still driving the car today. I still have the CEL/IMA light on all the time but the 12V charges and the IMA system works most of the time.

This isn't the safest thing to do so if you try it you do so at your own risk. Keep in mind the steering wheel locks when you turn the key to the off position.

Like I said, off the wall....

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

That fix is definitely far out! Whatever possessed you to try/do that? I will give it a try...nothing to lose. If it works for me, then you need to apply for a patent:). I may have to take a drive since we don't have many long hills here where I live. Maybe I will just try it on a level four lane with low traffic (in case the unexpected happens:omg:).

I was reading another post that talked about the switch (es) on the clutch pedal that fail and cause charging problems. And so I took the shield off under the dash and used my finger to work the switches (there are two, one that is depressed when the clutch pedal is out and another that gets depressed when you push in the clutch (also letting the other switch plunger come out) . So after "fiddling" with them including pulling the connector off, I decided to start the car. Was I surprised when the IMA motor/alternator/generator started the car (not the 12V starter) and the charge gauge showed about one fourth charging at idle and the battery got up to 2 bars charge. Well, I could not let it sit there and charge the IMA battery figuring driving it would increase the charging. Backed out of the driveway and started down the street and suddenly the charging stopped (but the 2 bars remained). Crap:confused: Drove back to the driveway and tried more fiddling with the switches. Nothing. However, now if I continue to repeatedly start the engine (using the 12V starter since the other "starter" does nothing) I can get a fleeting charging indication that quickly disappears. Slowly my 2 bars have disappeared. I also pulled both swithes and used an VOM to test for continuity when the switch is depressed and none when the plunger is out. Both appeared to work ok, but they are strange switches (cost $60 from the local Honda dealer and $45 with shipping from Majestic). Anyone know how these work and why so much for an on/off switch? Also, experimenting by disconnected showed one controlled starting the car (car would not start when disconnected) and the other did not appear to affect anything:confused:.

Went to Advance Auto and used the code reader again. Same codes (1600, 1575). This time I reviewed the stored frame data. Both frames showed nothing unexpected (0 mph, 180 degree temp, etc and 850 rpm's even though my tach on the car is reading 950-1000). Is there some minimum rpm that must be maintained to get enough charge out of the IMA motor/alternator/generator so the 12V light does not come on. It appears my tach is 150 or so off (too high reading) and maybe I need to up the idle? Anyone know where the adjustment is?

Did not shut the car off and drove around several miles with no engine light/IMA light on (12V still came on and no indication of IMA battery charging). Thought I might have lucked out:P. Drove in the driveway, turned off the car and then restarted. Guess what, IMA light and check eng light on:angry:

One positive is the AC seems to be working now, even when idling in the driveway. Go figure. As I said before the hybrids have too many failure points. At least I know the compressor works and the charge is ok.

Back to the fix you described. It brought back an old memory. I can remember driving to the post office with my mother in a 52 Willy's jeep and she would get to the top of a long hill and put it in neutral, shut the engine off and coast almost all the way. Now that was truly gas saving/green, without the high tech we are experiencing today. Albeit, gas was probably 2 cents a gallon back then:D, but at least less pollution was generated.

Sorry for such a long post...got carried away:).

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Isn't there some sort of re-learn procedure they sometimes do to charge up the IMA battery (since you say you can sometimes get a couple of bars on it now), where you rev it at something like 3000 or 3500 rpm until it charges all the way up?
You might want to try that.

The 1600 code is like a "placeholder"; it doesn't relate to anything in particular.
The service manual says something other than what Autozone says regarding the P1575 code; I think we talked about the P1575 in another thread somewhere here.

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Yes, I remember reading about the 3500 rpm process too. Trouble is I have been unable since that very first time to get an IMA battery charge indication that lasts longer tha a second or two (also intermittent) when I start the car. My two bars have also disappeared.

I am wondering if the luck I had before had nothing to do with the clutch switches, but were the result of installing a fully charged 12V battery. Is it possible that overnight a slow feedback charge went from the 12V backt hrough the DC-to-DC converter and put some charge in the 144V? This may have been enough (couple of bars) to start the engine and prevent whatever is shutting down the charging upon start up. Why it stopped charging when I tried driving is, in this scenario, a mystery. I did a full charge again on the 12V last night and we will see what happens today.

I have been tempted to charge the 12V fully disconnected from the vehicle and then reconnect and hook my 12V charger (6 amp max output) up and see if charging occurs reasonably (couple of amps) from the charger. Problem is I have also read that charging with the 12V connected can damage the electronics. (not sure what people do when they have to jump the car from another car. Is that so short of an event that no damage occurs or perhaps the good car only puts out a small amperage?)

This has been an interesting journey. I hope I end up finding a pot of gold or the wizard at the end.:omg:

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

When I started the car after it sat for 3 months (it started with the IMA motor) and took it for a ride I didn't notice something was wrong until I got to the first stop sign and saw the 12V icon light. Then I noticed I had no assist/charge. I immediately got the car back home, shut it off and sure enough when I tried to start it again it was completely dead.

I put the charger on overnight with both battery cables disconnected so the charger was just on the battery. The next morning the car started with the 12V/starter and I would get 2-3 bars of charge for a couple seconds then I would hear a relay pick and the charge would stop and the CEL/IMA/12V icon would light. At this point I thought the car was finally done but I figured there was a full charge on the 12V so I should be safe to take it for a drive and see if it would fix itself. I don't know why I turned it off/on and popped the clutch. It just kind of popped into my head. I got lucky is all.

I should add my codes are P1600 and P1449 (battery overheating/deterioration/deviation between cells) and I've never had the P1575 so you probably have something else going on. I think you need a definitive answer on what exactly the Honda specific P1575 is.

Best of luck...

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Well I tried the turning the key off in 5th gear with the clutch in, waited a few seconds and turned on the key. Engine started, but still no indication of IMA battery charging or charge in IMA battery. Tried it several more times in different gears, with the clutch in and out when I turned off the key. Still no go. Everything is the same as it was. Drats.

The full charge on the 12V and waiting overnight to see if a charge trickled back to the 144V theory did not prove out either.

Looks like it is time to pull the back seat and begin checking connections. Given the one time longer charging event and intermittent very short duration charge indication thereafter seems to say the 100 amp fuze on the junctions board (previous 1575 hint from service manual) is ok. Other manufacturers seems to use the 1575 code for brake pedal switches and engine mount solonoids (Audi). I guess it must be a manufacturer's choice rather than standard. The Adv Auto tester seemed to be indicating something to do with engine speed/idle fault.

Anyone know an easy way to test a relay for good operation (aside from applying power and listening for movement of the contacts/relay pulling in or hooking a VOM up to the switched connectors while applying power to the other connectors (which is which in terms of connectors?)? Hopefully they are all 12V on the car.

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. So many ways these things can fail.

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Did you actually pop the clutch or use the key to restart the car? If the key switch has 4 positions, Off/Acc/On/Start, then what I did was with the clutch depressed turned the switch to Off, waited, turned the key to On, waited, then popped the clutch. I didn't restart the car by switching to the Start position.

Also might it not be worthwhile to bite the bullet and bring the car to a Honda dealer and pay the diagnostic fee just to verify what the actual failed component is? You could still maybe purchase and install the part(s) yourself.

Just a thought.

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

I actually popped the clutch without going to start, but I also tried it by just turning the key off, waiting a few seconds and then turning the key back on (not to 12V start). Nothing seemed to work to fix the charging problem. I was a little worried doing it, half expecting every light on the dash to stay on, but it does not seem to have harmed anything.

Your suggestion of going to the Honda dealer is going to be my last step (if I take it rather than just drive the car without the IMA and turn up the idle). I figure I should check for loose connections, etc. behind the back seat first (still looking for a set of high voltage electrician gloves!). I don't have much faith in the Honda dealer to say anything other than I need a new IMA battery or MCM/BCM or something else ridiculously expensive.

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Just to close out part of my saga. I finally replaced the 100 amp fuse on the 144v battery and the car now charges/assists/autostops/etc. Currently getting a P1600 and P1449 codes using a reader. Using the Blinking Light Code technique described on the Insight forum I know the P1449 subcode is "78" which is Battery Module Deterioration (8 plus years old and out of balance in the cells/cell sticks resulting in lower capacity).

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Ok sorry I'm so late here. Yes, I have some ideas:

Check your fuse. I believe #16 under the dash, check your manual for the IMA fuse. Hook up a voltmeter and MAKE SURE it has power.

I was screwing around with the electrical, using the one next to the IMA fuse to power a radar detector when I accidentally tapped the frame of the car with the lead line. Had the same exact problems you described. IMA totally dead visibly. $800 later had a new fuse circuit board. I had fried not only fuse block 15 but 16 as well, the IMA. Of course the fuses looked fine to me, but at the time I had no voltmeter. Luckily when I told the tech I was screwing around with fuse 15, he quickly diagnosed the problem that I had shorted the fuse block, not the fuse.

It is my hypothesis that when you changed your battery, a power surge might have occurred that disrupted either fuse 16 or the block itself. Lack of power to the IMA will result in the exact problems you are describing. Although some of your descriptions are slightly different than what happened to me, I would check all of your IMA fuses, even the ones under the hood, and check the volts across it as well. Should point you in the right path. If any of those have no/low volts, your problem is electrical and nothing to do with the IMA system.

On another note, I feel bad I didn't see this thread earlier. When I read the initial guy who started this thread's problem, I immediately thought it was the computer. Could have saved him a lot of headache. Sorry bud.

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

Well it seems we have all had some luck in fixing at least part of our problems, albeit different problems. These hybrids can fail in so many ways and are probably best left to people who trade up every few years or the diehard problem solvers. I wish Honda had designed the car to default to the 1.3L ICE and standard 12V charging when anything goes wrong with the IMA system. I guess it does until the 144V battery gets bad enough/fails in a way to prevent 12V charging. If only someone would build/sell a bolt-on IMA high voltage to 12V DC-DC converter or alternator system and ECU that could keep the IMA/CEL "hybrid" codes from occurring...downshifting is the assist:omg:.

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

I have a very similar problem. I tested the 100 amp fuse with my multimeter and have continuity.

Not this right?

I have the code 1600 and 1575.
The battery is changed to a new one (12V), below 1500 rpm the light comes on battery (12V).

IMA light on, do not charge the system or assistant

where I buy this fuse if necessary?.

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

I think these fuses can fail in a somewhat weird manner so I would not necessarily thrust a continuity test. When I had my problem it would give a faint sign of charging in a random fashion. Changing out the fuze definitely fixed the 1575 problem and charging/assisting/below 1500 rpm 12 V light.

You have to access the battery end electronics to get to the fuse ( by removing the battery).

I purchased my replacement fuze from Hybrid Battery Repair in New York (Ron Hansen), but he is out of business now. You could still probably contact him on InsightCentral.com as RonaldH and he may still have some of the fuses (Littlefuse 100amp). If not him, there are several others on that site that do battery work (Eli is one at BetterBattery, see his link there).

Good luck.

Re: Charging System Problem ?? Whats Wrong?
 

thanks..!! I will buy these fuse and reply results later..!!
if someone know where buy a transmission CVT, appreciate the info!!