12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

We just got a used 08 civic hybrid, has quite a few miles on it, and has had a "New" Honda battery installed under warranty ~60k miles ago, once in a while, the 12v battery light will come on, IMA and anything else does not come on, but the IMA will not charge the system, and I am forced to do a compression start to get it to disappear, and work normally, ish.

The car will do the 8 bar to 2 bar, to 8 bar again after a few minutes, so I know it's out of wack, but I a wondering what the best course of action could be. Here in Canada, Honda is offering a great deal on the battery, for a low low cost of $5400 CAD (4100USD)+ 5h labor install, that comes with a wicked 30,000KM (18.6k miles) or 6 months, whatever comes first warranty!

I was looking at grid chargers, see if I could get a little more life out of it, before we either get a Bumblebee battery or just sell the car, as it has just under 200k miles on it, and not sure if it's worth the ~$3000USD for a new battery.

Now, there is the individual cell balancing, which takes forever, and is not really an option, and there are a bunch of grid chargers available online.

I've seen the Maxx-Volts chargers, as well as the Hybrid-Automotive chargers. The MV chargers are cheaper for the LM-1 model, but after a quick chat over ebay, I am not sure I would want to deal with MV in case of troubles as the replies were always suspiciously pushing how awesome their product is and how everybody else is just a cheap Chinese scam. the HA chargers seem interesting, but the price is absolutely bonkers for here ~600CAD (455USD + shipping (80CAD)).

I have seen a few links for DIY grid chargers, but for some reason they are all wildly different, and I am not sure what to trust. I am quite capable of soldering, and doing electronics work safely, but am a hobbyist that follows instructions and not an engineer, so I can't say what is safe and what isin't, just that I can follow instructions. So if anybody has a link for me it would be greatly appreciated.

But if there is something else I can do, please let me know. I've been searching these forums, as well as similar forums, and it seems to point that the battery is on it's way out and will be throwing IMA codes any time now.


Things I have tried:

- Test 12v charging system / start voltage (will need to confirm numbers as I am going off memory)
- 14.2v with the car on with no load
- Car starts with ~12.9v then jumps back to 14.2 nominal
- Unplug battery for ~5 minutes, charge IMA, repeat 3 times (IMA Calibration?)
- Trickle charge the 12v battery (3 years old)
- Low gear charge
- 3k rpm charge (gas waste charge)

The 12v battery will come back after a bit, usually after a short distance drive and it wasn't at 8 bars.

Hopefully I provided enough detail to diagnose the issue somewhat...

Cheers

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

Sounds like you need to replace your 12V battery. 3 years old is ancient.

I prefer a 51R to the sh!te 151R. You'll have to toss the shrouds, but it will fit.

What's a low gear charge?

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

This is good to know, I will get a new battery asap, hopefully I can get one from either Costco or a local shop.

As for the low gear charge, it's basically what I call it when I put it in L, it charges it up from 2 to 8 bars in ~2 minutes or so.

I should also note, that the climate here is pretty wild at times, 30c with 100% humidity in the summer, and -30c in the winter, so I'm sure this does a number on these batteries.

Cheers

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

51R are pretty common. Walmart carries them here in the states.

I've never heard of an "L" charge. When your at 2 bars, you're in a recalibration, and the car force-charges always. You would likely get better results in "P".

30 sounds delightful. It was 39 today, and we're in a bit of a cold spell.

Cold temps are great for nickel. They don't like being charged at high current under 10°C, but the car protects them from this. Plus, since the only source of heat is the ICE, it's going to run the ICE almost all the time anyway. The car will "empty" the HV battery with assist to heat the battery (they don't mind discharging at low temp), and then it eventually comes up above 10°C as the interior warms permitting charging and normal use. Nickel gets really happy around 35°C.

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

This is good to know, I'll throw in a 51R, I found one at a local store for ~150 after tax with a 20$ core, also found a 700$ battery pack from a pulled 08 HCH, do you think getting a battery pack for 700$ (4200$ from bumblebee for new) worth the risk? I'd likely do a stick per stick cycle to find the best, and simply build one pack out of both hers and the donor pack.

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

Salvage yard packs are hit or miss. US$2300 get you a 3 year warranty. It takes weeks to properly test a battery, and there are no guarantees that you won't be doing it again a few months later.

I guess it comes down to do you want a trouble free battery for 3+ years, or do you want a project? :)

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

The bumblebee battery is very interesting, but it's insanely expensive for shipping to Canada, it's 500USD shipping, and a 500$ core, not to mention border fees for freight which would be around 300CAD or so. I'd likely drive to a border town and do the swap in the parking lot if it were to get to that point, but we're also now putting a ~3300CAD battery in a 2500$ car.

I think it goes more to the project really, batteries are 10-15$ each for tabbed batteries, and that requires me to put a crap load of labor, not to mention building a diy tab spot welder (i'd buy a pack at this point), or spend ~1000CAD for the drive up to pick a used pack and chargers. Takes a while but a fun project for the end of summer...

Curious though, the Hybrids seem like they are tougher on the 12v batteries, is that true?

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

Hybrids aren't. Hondas are. That 12.9-14.2V behavior you saw is why. Traditional behavior is peak to 14-14.4, taper and hold 13.5. Honda surmised they could get a little better mpg out of their cars by running the 12V at a lower float voltage meaning they're never 100% charged, where lead acid likes to be. This shortens their life.

I routinely pull 7-10 year old 12V batteries out of the Prius.

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

More I learn about the civic hybrids, the more I learn how it has good tech, but poor execution. Poorly designed NiMH pack that cooks the middle cells, 12v battery kept at 80% charge like the IMA pack. But when it works, it works great!

What kind of difference would I see with a new 12v battery? I assume the IMA has a little less work to do charge it while running accessories?

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

The 12V light should stop coming on (unless your IMA light is also on, which you said it isn't), and there will be less load on the DC-DC converter (hybrid battery/IMA motor).

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

That is awesome, I will be installing one this afternoon in her car, there's one with a 5y warranty for 5$ more, so I'll have two batteries for the price of one by the sounds of it.

The 2 bar to 8 bar quick charge it does, would that be caused by the 12v also or we looking at the IMA for that? So many questions.... :D

Either way, I think a proper grid charge would help, just need to find some specs on building one.

Thank you so much for all your help! It's insanely helpful!

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

No. Recalibrations are due to the hybrid battery being deteriorated or out of balance. If the 12V is causing excessive load, then it could contribute to the frequency of recalibrations.

If your IMA light turns on when key-on/engine-off prior to start, then you're probably right. You can DIY, but you absolutely, positively can't grid charge without cooling. Period. All civic hybrid IMA fans are PWM controlled meaning you can't just put 12V to it. Plus, it's a leaf blower. You need a 12V/100W PSU to drive it full speed. If you go that route and can provide that kind of power, short the PWM wire to the ground wire, and that will pass 12V to the fan and run it full blast, but again... you'll need 12V/100W power supply for that alone.

Check the link in my sig. It's old, but it's a start. 2X APC-35-350 in series with diodes for protection and a monster 12V supply will get you there in-car.

Since you haven't coded yet, and it's very easy to pull, you might want to just pull the battery and blow through the pack with a box fan. My favorite is a carpet dryer:


That thing on low will blast through the pack. Silent, efficient and effective.

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

So these LED drivers hooked up in series is uber simple! I could build one in under half hour, and make a harness in 10 minutes. I have a crazy Server PSU that would do the job quite well to cool the pack down with a little shroud, it can hover if placed on the floor, and would totally cut your finger off if you felt like trying. I'll order a few of the APC-35-350 and go from there, hook up my multimeter for the first go until I decide to build it as a standalone unit in a PSU case or something. Curious, what diode would you put? I also assume it's installed on the Pos leg of the charger out to avoid reverse current?

Cheers

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

3 APC-35-350 are overkill. You only need 2.

Any diode of > 350mA and > 200V will work. The ones I use are 1A/400V, but I can't remember the P/N.

Yes on (+), but I put them on BOTH leads to prevent back flow in case one fails. Cheap insurance for $0.10. Yes, entirely unnecessary, but I jut feel good about it.

Fuses inline on the AC and DC sides aren't a bad idea either.

You need to give consideration to discharging. 2X 110V bulb sockets in series work great. Make sure you put the diode on the charger leads and not in the harness itself, or you won't be able to discharge. Also, make sure the harness has reasonable protection from being a shock hazard...

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

I plan on building a relatively simple harness with either permanently installed wiring that will be terminated by either a round trailer connector or a airplane connector, seal it off to avoid accidental death and the like. Discharge seems pretty straight forward, same leads, just to a bulb instead of power.

Fuses are absolutely a must, my experience with small electronics is that when stuff decides to go, it either goes quietly, or with a surge, I rather not have that.

Thank you so much, you answered many of my questions in such short time, and gave me the confidence in knowing that I was in the right direction. With a new 12v 51r battery, and a balanced pack, her car should give more life. Likely grid charge it a second time in dead of winter in the shed, it'll be cold, and at 350mah, i don't see there being an issue with heat..

Cheers! :D

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

Just make sure your connector is rated for high DC voltage. I use a 3 prong extension cord cut in half. End with the female gets connected to the car. 3 prong end is the charger - a bit dangerous when plugged end. 3 prong is handy for orientation as well. I just wire something separate for the fan.

No. grid charging in bone cold is either 1) ineffective or 2) just as bad as doing it in the heat.

Yeah, I know it's mild, but 350mA into a battery at 0°C ambient resulted in 50°C battery temp. You're still delivering 60W+ of power, and when the vast majority of that is being bled off as heat as the pack nears full, that will heat a battery up nicely. Imagine a 60W bulb inside a styrofoam insulated box the size of about 6 shoeboxes...

warm.

When possible, charging should be done with ambient above 0°C and active cooling... even if you have to put a space heater in the interior...

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

I just want to confirm you don't wire anything to ground, and just use it for proper pos/neg orientation and so that batt+ and batt- connect at the same time, correct??

so female end of the plug shouldn't have have 3rd wire, just the prong?


thanks.

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

Correct. 3rd prong is simply for orientation to prevent accidentally reversing polarity.

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

Would an AGM battery be less vulnerable to that? I am having this same issue as the poster, and its probably because my 12V is over 5 years old, but the car still starts up strong regardless. I just had this issue today that the poster had described with both the battery and IMA light coming on at once, and the 12V battery may be the issue given how old it is, but are there any other possible causes?

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

An AGM would just be a more expensive solution.

If the 12V/IMA lights aren't because of a weak/failing 12V, the other likely cause is a failed hybrid battery.

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

Well yes, my hybrid battery is basically failed, but why would that also affect the 12v? I know you can run without the hybrid battery technically. My reason for saying AGM is because you mentioned that the voltage that honda keeps the battery at is basically under charged and hence wear out lead acid faster if I understand what you said earlier correctly. So would an agm be better and last longer, and maybe avoid what I and the poster are facing?

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

The hybrid battery can deteriorate to the point that reliable 12V charging is no longer possible. The HV system powers the DC-DC converter. The battery is a big electron sink from which the DC-DC draws when the IMA motor is producing too little or too much voltage.

The hybrid battery can deteriorate to the point the battery is isolated from the car. When that occurs, you flip off the master switch and try to run it between about 1500 and 3500 rpm where the IMA motor output and the DC-DC converter get along. You will not get 12V charging outside that range.

I wouldn't waste the $ on an AGM. The 51R has 40% more capacity than the 151R... might last 40% longer for less $. AGM might last longer, but it will definitely cost more.

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

So did replacing the 12V battery fix your issue?

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

You either have a failed 12V, or your IMA battery has deteriorated to the point that it won't reliably charge the 12V or both. Get your 12V load tested.

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

How exactly are you getting the 51r in there? That definitely seems like the way to go, but it is significantly wider and removing the brackets alone does not seem to be enough, and I can't find any pictures. According to the low test, the battery only does 280 cca

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

It fits very easily, but there is less clearance at the ends. You have to remove all the plastic shrouds and base from the 151R. Once that's done, you have no issue installing the 51R in its place and clamping it down.

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

About to take it to an automotive store and see if they can do it.

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

If they can't, they're idiots, or you have some unique kind of HCH2. I did it on both of mine. It was trivial.

You may run into them being unwilling to do it since it's not the correct battery for the car, AND this may not fix your problem because your charging may be disabled due to the failed HV battery.

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

Well the battery is at about the time it needs to be replaced anyway. And since it's significantly larger, it should last longer even at a degradation. I only got 280CCA in the current one, and thats 40 degree weather. Thanks for the information.

Edit: Well I could add water, but I doubt that would much fix my CA being at 280. In 0c weather, it would start half as slow. A 51r regardless should even last longer even degraded, it would still be a 151r new. I also hope it fixes my weak power steering and excess recalibrations which only go away after a few hundred miles drive.

Re: 12v battery comes on, needs a compression start to "fix"
 

Yeah. 5 years is a good run. Just want to keep perspective about it being fixed or not.