American Honda dealers...
 

Hi folks

Well I have come back into this forum after a while away concentrating on another hobby - tweaking my Linux PC environment.

I have read quite a few posts tonight and I get the feeling that a lot of you are not happy with your dealers.

Doesn't Honda have some sort of feedback for you so that you can complain about the dealers and get a better service.

If enough complaints are put through in this country then the dealer loses the Honda badge.

I did start to wander about our dealer and car when we bought our hybrid about 2.5 years ago but, the little misunderstanding was put to rights and they have been very courteous since.

I have even had three wheels changed that were corroding and I didn't have to mention it at service time.

The dealership has now changed hands but, this is due to bidding for it I think and not complaints about the old dealer.

We do have a couple of big franchizes over here - Arnold Clark and Evans Halshaw and I hope that none of them get their hands on the Hondas. Especially Arnold Clark. If that happens then I will either take my business to another Honda dealer or dump the Honda.

I don't have brand loyalty. I have satisfaction demands and if they are not met I go elsewhere regardless of how good the car may be.

Working with computers as I do I find it very odd that the software upgrades cannot be undone.
I would think it highly unlikely that the software guys n' gals would suddenly dump software in favour of bringing out a new version. That is not the way it works. There is always an old version if not two or three to fall back on in case of errors that are unforeseen with the new version that can't be corrected within the new version itself.
If it were me getting told this I would be contacting Honda direct. It is absolutely disgraceful that you get treated this way.

So, good luck and keep at the dealer. After all the customer is King, right??

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

Actually, I think with computers it can be difficult to back-up to previous versions. Depends on the operating system and the specific program. The latest Internet Explorer for example, warns of dire consequences if you initiate an uninstall. Anyway, this lack of reversability upgrading the Civic Hybrid software bothers me as well.

We've just had the latest software installed, after getting a notice from Honda in the mail. Still not sure what I think of it. Seems to me the displayed state-of-charge is less "candid" since the update, if that makes any sense.

My take right now is that both Honda and the dealerships are getting increasingly adversarial with the customers. And if anything, it is Honda that is primarily setting the mood, ie: the dealership's hands are tied. The current mood among Civic Hybrid owners seems to be heading in the direction of dour these days. I'm still open minded, but starting to get uneasy, due to:

1. the hoops owners of HCH with apparently failed (or grossly underperforming) IMA battery are being put through by Honda.

2. the growing suspicion that the software update at least in part masks failing battery symptoms.

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

It's all very strange to me. You guys/gals seem to have an awful lot to do with software upgrades. I don't think I have had any except the one to correct the transmission problem I had during the first month of owning the car.
Fingers crossed that all goes well for you.

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

It amazes me that Honda is having such a hard time figuring out this software issue with the second-generation Civic hybrids. The battery management in my first-generation HCH still works fine. I've never had a re-cal, and the battery seems to charge/recharge in a sensible manner. They created these systems, why can't they seem to get the bugs out of the HCH2 software? And if it isn't the software but something specific to the IMA system itself in the HCH2 they should own up to it and correct the problem instead of trying to mask it with software updates. They're only hurting their reputation and car sales by doing so. I wouldn't buy an HCH2, even though I love my HCH1. I might consider an Insight2, but for now I'll wait and see how well those perform over time.

Welcome back, Dougal; it's nice to hear from you.

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

It's been documented in other forums (and I think elsewhere on this board) that indeed Honda is masking battery failures with software upgrades that exponentially lessen the utilization of the electric motor. The batteries are failing for several reasons - general use, higher heat and others. Honda is trying to hide from it, but hopefully enough people can come together to force them to deal with this issue.

I had a car that ran wonderfully for 4 years and got 46mpg. Over the last few months I have to work hard to get 32mpg and am so scared to drive it that it remains parked. The acceleration isn't viable for basic driving. The battery regens cause the car to nearly stall or hesitate for up to 5 seconds at a time. If you are making a left across oncoming traffic and a regen occurs, you will be broadsided very hard. I was LUCKY that this specific timing hadn't occurred to me, but it will to others or maybe me if I keep driving it.

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

really? documented where?

I never read that stuff from Honda or from any engineer that knowns this car. me thinks you are just repeating what owners like me say when we got nothing else to grab on to. just cause it is the easy answer does not make it is the truth.

ks

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

There are many folks who track this stuff religiously. They have taken the car in and ONLY had a software upgrade done - because Honda insisted that if we did not do so, that a battery failure would not be covered by warranty.

And after having that software change, their mileage dropped dramatically and the use of the electric assist dropped exponentially...and so did mine. What little power the car had was gone. I have read several posts from guys claiming to be techs that admitted that this was the case...that the software upgrade was designed to extend the life of the battery - BY USING IT LESS. That makes sense.

If it was your issue and you cared about it, you would do the research as I have. It's happened to my car and the fact that so many others report the same thing adds credence that we are not all just "grabbing on to something easy". We don't want to be here *****ing about our cars, we want to enjoy them, but first they need to work as they were promised to and not have us worried about getting killed because we don't know when it's going to stall in traffic.

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

see that's where the theory falls apart really fast.

that's why I am asking where its documented that the software updates are bad cause my mileage went up and my recals went down. and, I am not alone on this one so all I'm saying is that we gotta make sure a group of people who have the right to be pi**ed with their car do no speak for the rest of us by ignoring the other side of the story to; and playing it as if they know and speak the truth. :confused: they don't and my example and others is proof.

ks

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

Most people have had no effect on recals after the software update...mileage notwithstanding. The pending class action suit will deal with what's the truth. I wouldn't think these guys would have filed if there wasn't something to it.

I don't trust any dealer that tells me that my mileage going from 46 to 33 is "normal operation of the vehicle". My car never recalibrated in 4 years and now it does it every 2-3 minutes. Is that normal?

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

sure there is something to it... like the oldest story in the world: greed and $$$$ and when people want it bad enough like layers do, the hell with truth. I say this cause I am not dismissin the crap other hch owners are going through,I just want to make sure the gossip of some does not become the gospel of others.
"most people" that complain about this never come to GH except when they have something to complain about so dont forget about the others that been here for years and the 100,000 and more that bought this car and could be pluggin the phone lines and every law office and are not.

my problem is with people saying the updates do this and that and that, and then others repeat the BS as if it is gospel...... and they do it when I and others are still around to prove them wrong. Look if you got something wrong about your car then fine take it up with honda as you should and shame on them if they don't take care of you, but pushing a good cause with drivel and hersay attached is not going to help ya one bit cause I'll be standing in the way... and that's the truth.

ks

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

To Wood511:

You very likely are having serious issues with your car and battery, and Honda does seem to be increasingly evasive these days, but: you will get more bees with honey. Your initial reference to "documented" got my goat too. Not to mention posting more-or-less the same message in upwards of 1/2 dozen threads. Anyway:

Try to resist the hyperbole, take notes, gather documents (real ones...), make your case, but do it straight. Don't expect more than you're due, stay polite and assertive, with the dealership and Honda. Don't demand the moon, just what you signed up for: a car that works (more-or-less) as advertised.

One more thing: don't completely write-off Honda, or your car. There just might be benefit in the software, and if you stick with it you might see improvement. None of us really know right now, things will likely get clearer in the next few months.

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

man oh man, you read my mind except you said it much better.

on the last thing; it took me some days to start seeing the differences after the updates but I noticed that with the softwares keeping the battery charged better my recals went down. whats funny is that I started paying more attention to my battery too and with that my mpg was higher when I filled up.
I reckon my battery was in better shape than other hchs but maybe theres a waiting thing in the wings for us??? maybe it takes time to get into the hole and it takes time to get out; the diffrence between hchs maybe in the dept of the hole youre in. I guess mine was shallow.
if this is true then maybe the way one drives the car helps make the hole deeper or not. I wish there was a way to see if the really bad packs belong to people with a heavier foot and low mpg ??? :zip:

ks

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

Mendel,

Thanks for the advice.

Frankly, I don't have the time to do the kind of stuff many of you do - in terms of taking notes and studying the car. I shouldn't have to do that. For 4 years, I got about 46mpg on average and I never noticed even one recalibration...ever. Now, it's constant and the mileage has dropped dramatically. The dealer doesn't dispute any of this and has driven it and witnessed constant recals. Their statement, read straight from their script over and over is "that is the normal operation of your vehicle and it is functioning properly".

That's kind of the end of it for me in terms of tracking. Especially after I start googling around and find that I'm not alone - not even close to alone. I could document every nuance and every tidbit of perceived malfunction and why does that matter? The dealer sees what I see and they repeat the same statement. American Honda then says "the dealer found that your vehicle is operating normally so there's nothing we can do."

Honda knows about this problem. They likely know precisely what factors cause these issues. End of story. Hundreds if not thousands of others are seeing the same kinds of issues and visiting dealers all the time. The LA Times writes about it.

How should I use the honey approach? What do I do? Take it back to the dealer? And say what?

I don't want the moon. I want the car that I had 6 months ago...and loved to drive for 4 solid years.

I read posts here and elsewhere from serious enthusiasts who have tracked the software updates and meticulously watch their performance. Those people claim to have made logs or otherwise documented changes related to the pre and post performance of their vehicles. That's documented isn't it? I think it is. Just because Honda says something, or someone prints something in a book, does that make it documented? If not, how do you define documented? I doubt anyone here is out to get Honda. I'm not. I just want my car back.

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

One document is:

"Product Update: New Software to Help Prevent IMA Battery Deterioration" (their recent software update notice)

Another is any relevant service work you get done: try to ensure that the dealership's observations and Honda's language regarding "that is the normal operation of your vehicle and it is functioning properly" is on the same paper. Specifically ask the service writer to type that in.

The Owners Manual, which everyone has, might have a few gems. There is the following on page 213 of my 2006 version: "If this vehicle is unused for over one month, the service life of the 158V Nickel-Metal Hydride battery will be reduced and the battery may be permanently damaged".

The Service Manual, which I have, might also have some clues.

Maybe goverment regulatory agencies will get interested, like they did with the recent Toyota acceleration scandal.

Again, don't close the door on the possibility that there might actually be some benefit to the latest software, or any future itterations in the pipelines.

"Honda" is a mix of people I'm sure, some dedicated engineers, some salesmen with "different" agendas. If they collectively piss off enough people, sales will plunge, and hopefully then there will be a shake-up.

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

Wood511, time to move on to a new car. My 2007 HCH was so full of problems and issues that the dealer was not able to fix. I traded it after 2.5 years. Yes I took a loss, but I am so much happier with my new car.

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

This could have been an issue with my 2007 HCH as it sat on the new car lot for 8 months.

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

Ours was in a body shop for a month, and it felt different upon pickup. Not sure how much was due to just becoming unfamiliar with it, but I do think it used up one of it's "lives" there.

I'm not sure how you decide what's unacceptable period of no use, like a month, quoting from the Owners Manual. Likely any length has some effect. When cars sit on lots they start them up periodically, but this is different than daily use.

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

Our experience was the opposite, and maybe that's why our battery is still "ok", though getting recals more frequently. We were in touch with a salesman before they even took receipt of 2006's, he was to phone us as soon one was coming, and that's pretty much how it happened.

My take: poor choices in battery design and integration (their word, LOL), lackluster marketing (cars languishing on lots for months, like yours) and poorly educated dealerships have combined to thwart Honda's Hybrid program, so far. Couple that with their "circle the wagons" response to customers problems...

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

The more I think about it:

The only solution, equitable resolution, is for Honda to work with their customers, to realize we're beta testing their experiment, listen and act on our observations, reduce the onerous cost and miserly approach to replacement of dud batteries, and first and foremost: be candid.

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

Indeed. That is my conclusion as well. Sales will drop off some based on the existing material out there about these deficiencies. As the discontent grows, sales may drop further or Honda may have to start discounting AFTER fixing the problem. Step ONE is to admit they have a problem - and we are not there yet.

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

Not to mention the amount of data they could be getting from us that could be useful...

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

yes. I agree. rather than decrease safety and performance with software for SOME drivers with already compromised batteries, just cost share the replacement with a customer when it comes time to replace the battery pack. This preserves a bit of margin for Honda but doesn't make it quite the contentious expense for the consumer. of course, the car will probably then last 200,000, so an owner could easily go through 4 or 5 battery packs over the lifetime of the car.

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

Hi,

I'm a newbie here and have a 2004 HCH Manual that just turned over 85,000 miles. I bought the car in 2006 with 53,000 miles, from a local Honda Certified Used Car dealer. The car has seen mostly urban driving cycles the past 2 years, with the occasional bi-monthly highway trip. A/C does see seasonal use in May-Sept.

On a side note: I recently replaced the under-hood 12V battery (this was NOT really necessary, I just wanted the peace-of mind with winter fast approaching),

And as far as I know the IMA (144V) battery module has never been replaced. The car performs well and typically gets an indicated 38 - 42 mpg in city use and close to 50 mpg highway. (We do live at 5000 ft ASL, which reduces mileage and power.)

About a week ago the IMA and CHECK Engine lights came on. (P1600 and P1433). At the time they come on the SoC dropped from 75% to roughly half that. Throttle response becomes noticeably sluggish, but the REGen/ASSist meter still works. And the SoC gradually moves up and down. The most I have seen it come back to is about 67 % when the codes are thrown.

When I clear the codes, I observe the following: REGen/ASSist immediately at idle shows (GREEN) charge and the SoC rapidly comes up to 100% within a couple of minutes. When the car is driven, throttle response is crisp and instrumentation shows "like-new" REGen/ASSist and SoC behavior in urban driving.

Then, usually with a day or so (usually less than 20-miles) the same codes return (P1600/P1433).

To the best of knowledge, the ECM has NOT been re-flashed or "Upgraded" by Honda.

1) Is there a way to determine the ECM Version level?

2) If Honda flashes the ECM, will it potentially mask the P1433 code? Making them less likely to replace the IMA battery of DC-DC converter under warranty?

3) What is actually happening when the P1433 code is thrown? It seems to put the system into "LIMP" or "LAME" mode?

4) Does anyone have experience with Honda's Certified Used Car Warranty or Third-Party Warranties, with respect to IMA failures?

Any advice (or dare I say Insights?) would be greatly appreciated.

Lee

Re: American Honda dealers...
 

My understanding of the hybrid battery pack is that it is structured basically like a bunch of matched batteries strapped together into cells of maybe four each. Regardless, I recognize the symptoms- you have a bad cell.

Masking this with software upgrades is a bad idea- your car was constructed far before these software updates were written, and they were written for the HCH 2 in my opinion, not your car. Replace the battery pack and move on. Keep the software you currently have as well and be vocal about it. If your car has its orginal battery at 7 years, another 7 on one battery is not a bad thing.