Synthetic Anyone?
 

I just yesterday traded up from a 2005 (gas) Honda Civic to a brand new 2008 Civic Hybrid, color Galaxy Gray Metalic. The doggone dealer tacked on a $2K "market adjustment fee" which irked me--and drove up the price--but they have us over a barrel, don't they?

I've always been a fan of synthetic oil, believing that it reduces enegine friction and delivers slightly better gas mileage.

What do you guys think? I see the new hybrid uses a super-light 0W20 oil. Should I put synthetic in when it's time to replace?

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

Boy how times have changed. Just last year, these cars were being discounted $2000.

To answer your question, yes move to synthetic after the first fill, and be sure to replace the filter at the first fill. Synthetic will easily last 10K miles or more with no problems.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

Correct me if I'm wrong (hasn't happened yet, but there is always a first), but the owner's manual does not specify the type, only the weight of oil.

Yes, I realize the "synthetic versus dino" debate has gone on longer than the one regarding creationism.

My opinion: Synthetic does not have any proven benefits to justify the cost. Most "evidence" you will see is purely anecdotal, just as you state in your first post that you "believe" that synthetic has advantages.

It is a bit different currently since oil prices have gone up so much, that the difference between "regular" and synthetic has narrowed, versus the 200-300% price difference in the past.

I am NOT a fan of prolonged oil use, and will not ever keep the same oil - no matter what kind it is - in my engines for 10000 miles. I will be doing my second oil change next weekend at (gasp) 5000 miles, along with tire rotation.

No, I am not contradicting myself by using the manual for oil type, and seeming going against it regarding duration. With oil changes, the more frequent, the better. If I advocated longer intervals, then that would be contradictory.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

It is unfortunate that your oil use is so wasteful and inefficient. Not only are you wasting your money, but you are also wasting a limited resource. The "old School" change interval might have been valid in the last century, but not today.

I routinely use synthetic lubricants in cars for between 10 and 15K miles with no harm whatsoever. At each change, I have the oil tested to insure that is all is well, and with over 200,000 trouble-free miles in 3 cars, I find that not only is it good for the environment, but is also good for the pocketbook.

The Civic has an change interval of about 10K miles. Other cars I have the interval is 15K and higher. It just makes no sense today to change your oil at shorter intervals. Just like you would not throw away a half used roll of toilet paper, don't throw away a half used crankcase of oil.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

Today's oils have lots of detergents. Pour some on your driveway, and a brief rain and it is gone. Change the oil too often, and seals, valves, etc. will not last as long as they should. Notice that your service manual says nothing about mileage for services as the engine has sensors that let it know what needs to be done. I'll use synthetic mobil 1, do what the dash codes tell me, and will easily get several hundred thousand miles outta my honda. I find myself stunned at the people who think they are smarter than the engineers and manufacturers who have millions and millions of miles of experience in areas such as these. Good luck when you start losing compression and your gas mileage goes in the tank.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

IMO, I'd use synthetic. In my case, I like to do my own oil changes and use M1. It's about the same cost per qt as the Honda 0W-20 that isn't full synthetic. I usually change it around 8-10K and go by the OLM. BTW, the oil looks like a dark golden brown when it comes out.

Peace,
Paul

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

At first I thought I saw a bump in MPG after chaning to synthetic, but it seems to have normalized again to levels similar to last summer. I will keep using it though--it's easier to get than Honda 0-20w since my dealership is on the other side of town.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

I'll never understand people who buy a hybrid car and then change the oil 2-3 times more frequently than the manufacturer of the car (the manufacturer! I'm not even talking about third party sources of information here) recommends. It shows a pretty clear lack of concern for the environment, sustainability, or frugality, so I'm not sure why such a person would choose a hybrid vehicle.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

Congrats on the new car! Too bad about the mark-up fee but I hear ya! Toyota Prius dealer wanted $7,000 over msrp so I went with HCHII instead!

I think it comes down to educating yourself as to how your car operates and why you need to change oil less frequently. Most older gas vehicles need oil changed more often when not using synthetic oil. Places like Jiffy-Lube and other quick change oil places recommend changing oil every 3,000 miles. Instead, owners need to read the owners manuals of their newer vehicles and better educate themselves with newer technology like hybrid cars...:lightbulb

HBJ

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

If i'm not mistaken, Honda 0W20 may be Mobil1. At he dealer, 0W30 is $3 per qt and the 0W20 is $9 per qt. The only other 0W20 I have been able to find on auto parts shelves is Mobil1. Other than the weight, I cannot imagine any other difference that would cost $6 per qt more. I believe that Mobil makes a lot of other manufacturers oils including Honda and Toyota

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

Get your 0-20 Mobil1 at Wallmart.

http://www.gjlenterprise.com/0-20wOil.jpg

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

More anecdotes, which mean essentially nothing.

Your analogy is incorrect: oil is not good and then suddenly bad (or "empty" like a "roll of paper towels" in your analogy). It gradually loses lubricity and collects contamination, becoming less efficient at its job.

And for you whiners about my using a limited resource: give me a break. I recycle my used oil, and it's only 3 qts. An ICE runs better (read: MORE EFFICIENT) with good, clean oil. I would venture I am using less than you, just for that fact. How's that for an anecdote?

Now, those of us who buy a hybrid and leave it running while they are out of the car to do errands...THAT is silly.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

Given your 'analysis' when should we change our oil? You are about to change your oil for the second time at about 5,000 mi. Since oil doesn't go bad instantaneously Orient Express' analogy is invalid. What if I suggested you change your oil every 50 miles! Given your statement, this analogy would be valid. But I doubt the oil at 50 miles would be less efficient at its job that you would be using less than us. I believe we all agree a 50 mi oil change interval is too short and you dispute Orient Express changing his oil every 10 to 15k mi is too long. He also states that he has his oil tested and all is well.

Bottom line is no proof has been provided on when one should change his oil. How did you determine that your oil is less efficient enough to warrant that it be changed at 2500mi intervals?

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

I hate to fight with an unarmed person.... It is like a debating with a Republican. Their narratives tend to be rehashes of the golden oldies from the 20th Century.

Sure one can change their oil at 50 or 5000 miles and not have a problem, except that they are still wasting money, resources, and time. Sure back when cars had distributors and carburetors, oil did not have the additives they have today, and had a very limited service life.

But things improve, and so it is with engines and oil. In a world where spark plugs last 100K miles, and other fluids have a "life of vehicle" service interval, oil has kept pace. Seat of the pants, "looks clean to me", shade tree mechanics are an artifact of the last century.

Today, it is preferable to and convenient to look at actual oil use data and make maintenance decisions that are the most optimal and efficient.

I would recommend that everyone take the time to get their oil analyzed to validate that it is OK to use it to its full potential.

Knowledge is a powerful tool, it can set you free, and help you use resources to their full potential.

http://www.gjlenterprise.com/30Koilc...ts-editied.jpg

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

Oh, my...what would the whiners say if I did such a thing...wasting all that oil?

Seriously: exaggeration of my point of view is not argument.

I did not write that. I changed it first after 1k, and will change it at 5k intervals afterward.

I don't care what one person's oil analysis says, that is their specific situation and there are too many variables in driving styles and locations. For instance, one person may make 50 1-mile trips in 120deg heat, while another drives 100 miles once a week in no higher that 70deg. What if someone only drives 3k mi/year? No oil should stay in a engine for 3 years.

No one person can say what is best for all conditions, no matter how smug they can sound.

If you are going to err, err on the side of more frequent than not frequent enough...that's my advice.

What do I know? I'm just an engineer AND a biochemist, and someone who has actually done all his own mechaniking and preventive maintenance for decades now.

Practically speaking, if you follow the 10k recommendation, you will probably be fine for however long you own the car. I just choose more a more frequent schedule because that is my choice. Oil does degrade with use AND time and 5k is my compromise. And on the original question, I still have yet to see anything convincing about synthetic advantages to justify the cost difference. I will concede that 0w-20 is only available in synthetic, as far as I know.

Oh, and remember what they say about opinions and ....;)

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

Does your oil analysis and testing support your oil change frequency or are you just postulating that it is optimal?

With the new advances in lubrication materials, it is easy to use assumptions that may have been valid in the last century, only to have them rendered obsolete or irrelevant in today's environment and with today's lubrication materials.

I'd sure like to see the data for your driving situation to see how it stacks up to the results that have been posted on this forum and others. Peer review is a good thing, except when your argument is unsustainable.....

As new advances in materials become available, advice that might have been relevant at one point can be rendered obsolete overnight.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

All I know is that I had a 96 jeep cherokee and changed the oil every 25,000 miles until I sold it at 196,000 miles. No problems. What I used up in gas, I made up for in oil / environmental savings. What it boils down to is the risks you are willing to take with your vehicle.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

FACT: Oil is a limited resource. Using more of it than necessary does not result in a positive net effect on the environment.

FICTION: The ICE efficiency gains (MPG) of "cleaner" oil ultimately offset the additional waste resulting from excessive oil changes.

Let's take a look at this, shall we?

Assume 100,000 miles of operation and 5k oil changes vs. 10k changes:

If the efficiency gain of frequent oil changes yields, conservatively and hypothetically, 0.2 MPG savings on a typical 45 MPG average, then this would represent 10 gallons of fuel saved over 100,000 miles.

Therefore: ICE FUEL SAVINGS w/frequent oil changes = 10 gallons of refined gasoline saved, or roughly one tankful over 100,000 miles

Now, 5k oil changes also require an additional 34 quarts of refined oil over 100,000 miles. Bonus note: 34 quarts = 8.5 gallons of new motor oil.

However, as the Cat in the Hat puts it, "But that is not all. Oh, no. That is not all..."

Don't forget, THE NATURAL RESOURCES USED TO CREATE 34 extra new oil bottles manufactured + 34 extra quarts of new oil processed at the refinery + other natural resources burned to manufacture and distribute said new oil + 10 new oil filters manufactured + 34 extra quarts of old oil returned to recycling + other natural resources used to filter, convert, package, and distribute recycled oil product + 34 extra empty oil bottles returned to recycling + 10 old oil filters returned to crushing and disposal + other natural resources used to clean, melt, package, and distribute recycled plastic and steel material

...were ALL expended to make frequent oil changers "feel better" about excessive and unnecessary maintenance. The energy chain doesn't start and end at your Walmart shelf, friends.

Which reminds me, I have a box of 12 one-liter bottles of water in the garage that I haven't used. I'm feeling the urge to open them all, pour them down the drain, and get those empty bottles and box lickity-split into the recycling chain where they'll do the environment some good!

"That is what the cat said...
Then he fell on his head!"

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

OrientExpress is one of those people at Green Hybrid that really knows his stuff and does not take much to know he is right. Engineer? I doubt it. I will take his word over yours any day. You sig gives it all away pretty bad too :confused:

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

clindguini basically covered what I wanted to say. I can't imagine that the more frequent oil changes improve your fuel economy enough to justify the increased motor oil usage, let alone the additional energy used in refining, transportation, etc that he brings up.

Unfortunately the 3000 mile oil change interval will be a hard thing to overcome, and dealers aren't helping since they want to perform those oil changes.

I just can't wait when we have an opportunity to have more electric cars so we can do away with all this ludicrous maintenance altogether.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

I think Honda has some engineers. I'm gonna do what they recommend.

nf

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

I was trying to give two extreme examples (50 & 15k mi) to establish a continuum to try and demonstrate that oil starts off clean and ends up contaminated. Given this I want to ask, for your specific conditions, how do you determine where your oil changes from "clean" to being "contaminated" enough to warrant changing.

I didn't mean to misquote you. My question could be rephrased and not include a specific interval: Especially being an engineer and biochemist, how did you "choose" to change your oil at the interval you do? I am just trying to collect information about this subject so I can make an informed decision on when to change my oil. I was wondering if you had any further information on how you came to your decision.


From an engineering point of view I find Orient Express' oil report from Blackstone quite informative. Being an engineer don't you find this type of report an integral part of making a decision on changing your oil? Would you consider having your oil "analyzed" (for your specific situation) and use this information to possibly adjust your oil change interval?

Would having your oil "analyzed" greatly reduce the err in calculating your oil change interval?

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

Oil never wears out, just the additive package. Used oil can be filtered to remove solids and new additives added and the whole process starts anew. It has been proven (do a search) that when you change your oil that more wear is created at that time than when the oil has been in your engine for X amount of miles.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

You may want to check Toyota/Scion/Lexus dealerships for 0W-20.

The Toyota Technical Service Bulleten (TSB) and the Owner's Manual both state that 5W-20 is OK. But, for better fuel economy & better cold starting performance use 0W-20.

More recently, Toyota announced 0W-20 across the board:

In the July 1, 2008 Edition of Flashpoint, ILMA has announced that Toyota has officially decided to switch the recommendation on engine oil for certain vehicles from SAE 5W20 and SAE 5W30 to SAE 0W20.

ILMA reports that these changes will affect all Toyota brands, including Toyota, Scion and Lexus. The change will also appear in owner's manuals.

No further information is offered on timing or specific vehicles.

Please read more about this announcement here:
http://newsmanager.commpartners.com/...8-07-01/1.html

Here is a link to download the TSB:
http://www.chrysanindustries.com/pdf..._tsb071002.pdf

Another option is ENEOS Fully-Synthetic 0W-20 manufactured by Nippon Oil. Nippon Oil is the largest oil company in Japan and they supply the factory fill 0W-20 to Toyota in the US.
Here is the web-site for more info: www.eneos.us

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

Today, I called a local dealer since I am coming close to oil change time. The dealer said they use full synthetic for their oil changes when I asked how much it cost. It appears that the Honda oil they use is full synthetic and that is what they recommend for my 2004 Civic I (I bought it used and am coming up on my first oil change).
The manual recommendations are for 10000 miles per change for normal driving and 5000 miles per change for harsher conditions. Getting in and out of my place is about two miles of gravel (read dusty roads) before the pavement. I assumed, until reading this thread, that I should go with the 5000. (For that reason and because I do not know what the Acura Dealer I bought the car from put in it, though I was told it was spec. oil.)
I plan to go with the synthetic the dealer recommends. What do you synthetic users think about (1) changing now at 5000 miles and (2) what the interval under the above conditions should be with synthetic?
Note: we have been steadily gaining mileage. My wife, who drives the car for the most part, says she feels a little drop in power performance (not mileage) like you get in a conventional vehicle when the oil gets dirty.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

The only thing that driving down a dirt road will do is get the car's body and air filters dirty faster. It won't have any effect on the oil. The crankcase on a modern engine is a sealed system.

Severe duty for an engine, is pulling heavy loads, start and stop driving, driving in very hot climates, lots of idling. It does not sound like your car's usage fits that pattern.

I would stay with 10K intervals initially, and get the oil analyzed at the next fill. Based on those results you can tune your change interval.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

[quote=cgaiii;187664]Today, I called a local dealer since I am coming close to oil change time. The dealer said they use full synthetic for their oil changes when I asked how much it cost. It appears that the Honda oil they use is full synthetic and that is what they recommend for my 2004 Civic I (I bought it used and am coming up on my first oil change).
quote]

You may want to confirm, watch them put the Honda genuine fluid 0W-20 (quarts) in your car. Unless you specifically request the 0W-20, they may put in their BULK oil which is more likely 5W-20 or 5W-30.

As more owners request 0W-20, more dealerships will carry 0W-20 in BULK and reduce the overall cost to the consumer.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

Thanks to Orient Express and skoh for the good tips.
I was just following what the manual says about severe conditions, but what you say makes sense.
Having the 0W-20 will be more important as cooler weather comes on. I would assume that even if the Acura dealer I bought the car from had used bulk 5W-20 or 5W-30, I wouldn't see much effect in the summer (I bought the car in June, so it has bee summer driving so far).
I will definitely be sure to specify the oil grade and also not worry about hurrying to get the change done. (Watching my air filter is probably more important.) So far mileage is still rising, not falling. (I assume that is the learning curve.)
(Most of the driving the car does -- my wife's 25 mile one way commute is on hard surface roads at 45 - 55 mph, curvy, mountainous area, just the first two miles of dust. We picked this hybrid because we thought it would be the best of the bunch under these conditions, so far true -- she regularly gets mid 53 - 55 mpg. As maintenance items come up we will try to improve (particularly tires currently a mish mash mix), so I appreciate the input about oil. Object is low cost of ownership and commute and of course less environmental impact.)

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

[I would stay with 10K intervals initially, and get the oil analyzed at the next fill. Based on those results you can tune your change interval.[/quote]

Real newbie question here. How does one go about getting the oil analyzed? I saw the Blackstone results you posted, but what is the process?

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

Consider AMSOIL 0w20. Their new synthetic has a 1-year, 25,000-mile oil change recommendation and everything I've read seems to confirm this. Other threads on other discussion boards severely criticize the Mobil 1 synthetic as not living up to its claims. For my 2003 HCH I, I'm about to switch over from the conventional 0w20 my Honda dealer uses (and charges me $6.20/qt for) to AMSOIL 0w20 at $28.20/gal (7.05/qt at the preferred customer pricing). I'll also start using their filter ($13.20) which is designed for the extended drain interval. I've asked my dealer and talked to a mechanical engineer who uses this stuff, and they both think it is perfectly fine. I'll go from 3 oil changes/yr at $45 ea at the dealer to one oil change I do myself for $41.40 plus misc lube and other fluid costs.

I save over $90/yr and the consumption of 8 quarts of oil. Seems like a good deal to me.

I'll be switching to full synthetic in my 1986 Ford E-150 (5w30) and 1967 Chrysler Newport (20w50) as well since they will really benefit from the extended drain life because they don't get driven much anymore.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

I am satisfied that synthetic oil is the way to go for newer vehicles once they are properly broken-in. Use the lowest viscosity recommended by the manufacturer.

I was interested to read that Toyota has recently revised their recommended oil to 0W-20 from the 5W-20 or 5W-30 previously specified. Others may have done the same.

As for the change interval debate, I think that unless we have an actual oil analysis to make informed decisions it's best to stick with what Honda, etc. recommend. For many drivers, time intervals are more relevant than mileage. Cold weather and short trips can have a far greater impact on oil life.

The exception I would make is that older cars would normally be better served by using conventional oils specifically made for higher mileage vehicles. Stick with the lowest viscosity for the ambient temperatures you will encounter.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

Go to Blackstone Labs and request a free oil sample kit to be sent to you.

Take a sample of your drain oil, fill out a data form and send it to them in the kit along with payment, and in about a week they will send you the results via email.

Once you register a car with them, they will update the oil use history on the car every time you send in a new sample. They will send you as many sample kits as you want, and you send them back as you use them. It is really pretty simple.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

How much do they charge?

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

The price of the test depends on which test are done. They post their prices on their website.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

Toyota and Honda dealers should have 0W-20 in quarts. And some dealers now have it in BULK.

My local Toyota dealership offers a 0W-20 oil change for $44. But, you have to specifically ask for 0W-20. Otherwise, you may get what is in their bulk tank which may be 5W-20 or 5W-30.

If you are a Do-It-Yourself (DIYer), you might want to look into ENEOS Fully-Synthetic Oils manufactured by Nippon Oil. www.eneos.us
- expensive!

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

My local auto parts house stocks Moblie 1 and Castol in 0w-20 but you have to ask for it it is not on the shelf.
I have been using synthetic since 2000 my Z3 has 135,000 and still keeps on ticking.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

I just follow the maintenance minder and i go about 8000 miles before change. Isn't that what it was put on the car for?? Follow the same thing on my S2000 and no problems. My dealer doesn't put a mileage on the window oil change sticker anymore just a 5 %.

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

0W-20 is generally synthetic - at least Group III which is considered synthetic in the USA. Here is a quote from the GF-5 website (Lubrizol): "Formulating 0W-20 oils requires the use of Group III Base Oils."
http://www.gf-5.com/the_story/ingredients/

Do-It-Yourselfers have many options as long as the 0W-20 is API approved to keep the warranty provisions.
Here is a list of API approved 0W-20: http://eolcs.api.org/FindBrandByVisc...iscosity=0W-20

Re: Synthetic Anyone?
 

blackstone labs kit ordered.