When the price of gas reaches X...
#11
09-02-2005, 06:39 AM
Join Date: May 2004
Location: New England
Posts: 1,518
Re: When the price of gas reaches X...
Originally Posted by Bird
Re: “How many times have you heard the argument that it's only worth buying a hybrid once the price of gas gets to X....”
Well, this argument always disturbs me. It assumes that the rationale for buying a hybrid is entirely self-serving and solely economic. Some of us think we have a civic duty (excuse the pun) to conserve fuel and improve the environment. Now more than ever that’s the case.
It’s funny. One rarely sees the same logical economic constraints applied to Hummers or Expeditions. “It’s only worth buying one if you have a full load of passengers,” or the like. Actually, most of them I see on the road are single-occupant vehicles.
Well, this argument always disturbs me. It assumes that the rationale for buying a hybrid is entirely self-serving and solely economic. Some of us think we have a civic duty (excuse the pun) to conserve fuel and improve the environment. Now more than ever that’s the case.
It’s funny. One rarely sees the same logical economic constraints applied to Hummers or Expeditions. “It’s only worth buying one if you have a full load of passengers,” or the like. Actually, most of them I see on the road are single-occupant vehicles.
#12
09-02-2005, 06:42 AM
Join Date: May 2004
Location: New England
Posts: 1,518
Re: When the price of gas reaches X...
Originally Posted by tbaleno
So,
With all the news about short fuel supply you would think a light bulb would turn on and people would slow down on the highways. On my 200 mile trip home from vacation (which I drove about 52ish the whole way) I only came across one car that was cruising in the right lane. I was going faster then them and I would have drafted to help them out but my peak speed was about 52 or so and they were going about 3mph slower which would have made me lose a bit of mileage trying to keep behind them. (I should have flagged them over and told them to up the tire pressure).
My 200 mile trip neted me 59.4mpg with 2 adults, 2 kids and cargo filling every other space in the car.
I emplore you all that say you can't drive slow because you will get run over on your highway to do drive 50-55. People will go around you. Don't use that argument that a little old lady died because some car came up on her too fast and couldn't stop either. What about those kids that go 80 or 90 and run into someone going 75? Just because you can come up with an exception to the rule doesn't mean going 50-55 is realy as dangerous as you think. It has to start somewhere. Be the one to start the trend.
Gas prices aren't going down. World wide demand for oil will keep the prices high even if demand in the US drops. The only way to save money is by YOU changing your habbits.
With all the news about short fuel supply you would think a light bulb would turn on and people would slow down on the highways. On my 200 mile trip home from vacation (which I drove about 52ish the whole way) I only came across one car that was cruising in the right lane. I was going faster then them and I would have drafted to help them out but my peak speed was about 52 or so and they were going about 3mph slower which would have made me lose a bit of mileage trying to keep behind them. (I should have flagged them over and told them to up the tire pressure).
My 200 mile trip neted me 59.4mpg with 2 adults, 2 kids and cargo filling every other space in the car.
I emplore you all that say you can't drive slow because you will get run over on your highway to do drive 50-55. People will go around you. Don't use that argument that a little old lady died because some car came up on her too fast and couldn't stop either. What about those kids that go 80 or 90 and run into someone going 75? Just because you can come up with an exception to the rule doesn't mean going 50-55 is realy as dangerous as you think. It has to start somewhere. Be the one to start the trend.
Gas prices aren't going down. World wide demand for oil will keep the prices high even if demand in the US drops. The only way to save money is by YOU changing your habbits.
#13
09-02-2005, 07:05 AM
Re: When the price of gas reaches X...
The thing that bothers me the most is that every news article or media attention to the hybrids always concludes, "But the hybrid upgrade will never pay for itself in gas savings so it doesn't make economic sense." So, why does this car have to live by that standard alone when no other car upgrade is ever judged by that standard. (never mind the fact that it's not even true)
You never hear anyone say, "So that upgrade to the Hemi engine will never pay you back so it doesn't make sense." In fact that upgrade keeps costing you more the more you use it! The upgrade to the V6 won't pay you back, the upgraded stereo won't pay you back, the allow wheels won't pay you back, rain-sensing wipers won't pay you back. NO CAR UPGRADE PAYS YOU BACK, so why should the hybrids have to live by that rule to make sense?
The reason is that people assume we need speed and power, those are god-given rights. Things like envrionmental concern or other scruples are *optional* so those decisions are made by the discretion of the buyer, and if they're fanatical enough they might pay extra for an environmental upgrade. Meanwhile, upgrades related to god given rights like speed, power, thurdering music, and flashy spinning rims are never given the slightest bit of scrutiny. We live in a really screwed up world.
You never hear anyone say, "So that upgrade to the Hemi engine will never pay you back so it doesn't make sense." In fact that upgrade keeps costing you more the more you use it! The upgrade to the V6 won't pay you back, the upgraded stereo won't pay you back, the allow wheels won't pay you back, rain-sensing wipers won't pay you back. NO CAR UPGRADE PAYS YOU BACK, so why should the hybrids have to live by that rule to make sense?
The reason is that people assume we need speed and power, those are god-given rights. Things like envrionmental concern or other scruples are *optional* so those decisions are made by the discretion of the buyer, and if they're fanatical enough they might pay extra for an environmental upgrade. Meanwhile, upgrades related to god given rights like speed, power, thurdering music, and flashy spinning rims are never given the slightest bit of scrutiny. We live in a really screwed up world.
#14
09-02-2005, 07:41 AM
Re: When the price of gas reaches X...
Originally Posted by livvie
Well, sorry to say, the only way we get to a greener way of living is by economics. Those of us that think it's our duty to improve the environment are in the minority. Big time. That same group to some extent I have issues with, they will claim that BioDiesel is more friendly to the enviroment, or that mixed gas (ethonol) is better for the environment. Both being of course FALSE. The amount of eneregy going into creating either source of fuel outways it's benifits. Period. Yet they go on blind about there benifits.
#15
09-02-2005, 08:15 AM
Join Date: May 2004
Location: New England
Posts: 1,518
Re: When the price of gas reaches X...
nope. I think the biodiesel option can work just not at the moment as is. as for methonol... not a chance.
Last edited by livvie; 09-02-2005 at 08:39 AM.
#16
09-02-2005, 09:34 AM
Re: When the price of gas reaches X...
Biodiesel is more than cost effective at $2/gallon. At $2.50-$3/gallon, it's actually very profitable, and that's based on biodiesel from soy! The most cost effective means is expected to be biodiesel from algae since the fact is that soy takes a lot of usable crop land, and crops are subject to weather and can be wiped out. Algae ponds are much more resiliant and take up a fraction of the acreage for any given oil output. The longer that fuel prices stay this high, the faster that we'll see investment in biodiesel. Ethanol is not nearly as cost effective, methanol is not even worth discussion, but biodiesel from soy, and especially from algae is a very real solution that is easily profitable at today's fuel prices.
#17
09-02-2005, 10:17 AM
Re: When the price of gas reaches X...
Here is a question from the uneducated. Maybe I am too optimistic. I understand that you will need a certain amount of fossil fuels to operate a biodiesel plant and to a certain point doesn't make sense (or operates at a negative where it takes more to operate than it produces). My question which stems from the flywheel theory. yes it takes a helluva lot of power initially to get a flywheel spinning and up to speed, but once to speed, it would take little effort to maintain said speed.
Couldn't a biodiesel plant operate on fossil fuels to a certain point and then convert over to what they produce and "cruise" on biodiesel to produce more bio? Ihave a bunch of other crazy ideas loke that but I don't know how every really works.
Thanks.
Couldn't a biodiesel plant operate on fossil fuels to a certain point and then convert over to what they produce and "cruise" on biodiesel to produce more bio? Ihave a bunch of other crazy ideas loke that but I don't know how every really works.
Thanks.
#18
09-02-2005, 10:50 AM
Join Date: May 2004
Location: New England
Posts: 1,518
Re: When the price of gas reaches X...
Ok... so I found a really good article on mass use of biodiesel.
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html
I still need to hear the bad side of this, so I wrote to the author of the article explaining how this can be so... too good to be true.
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html
I still need to hear the bad side of this, so I wrote to the author of the article explaining how this can be so... too good to be true.
#19
09-02-2005, 11:57 AM
Re: When the price of gas reaches X...
So much progress is delayed or stopped by pesimists.
Just think about how much energy it takes to produce a single gallon of gas. It doesn't come from the ground ready to pump. It isn't even on the surface and requires massive energy just to get to the raw materials... Comparisons like this just baffle me.
We don't even need a 'mass scale' solution. Midwest could produce argicultural based fuels, urban areas could 'harvest' from McD's.. The military has had multi-fuel vehicles for quite some time.
I think this was basically Bird's point. There are many many things out there that would solve peoples' problems better and cheaper, but company's with money extend themselves into other markets and stamp out competition to make things better for them, not for you. The major drivers of the 'free market' are companies, not consumors.
Why do you think that public opinion is so skeptical about anything that doesn't come from fossil fuels? PR FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt as a marketting campain.. take someones natural anxiety over change and use it for your own benefit.
Just think about how much energy it takes to produce a single gallon of gas. It doesn't come from the ground ready to pump. It isn't even on the surface and requires massive energy just to get to the raw materials... Comparisons like this just baffle me.
We don't even need a 'mass scale' solution. Midwest could produce argicultural based fuels, urban areas could 'harvest' from McD's.. The military has had multi-fuel vehicles for quite some time.
I think this was basically Bird's point. There are many many things out there that would solve peoples' problems better and cheaper, but company's with money extend themselves into other markets and stamp out competition to make things better for them, not for you. The major drivers of the 'free market' are companies, not consumors.
Why do you think that public opinion is so skeptical about anything that doesn't come from fossil fuels? PR FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt as a marketting campain.. take someones natural anxiety over change and use it for your own benefit.
#20
09-02-2005, 05:02 PM
Re: When the price of gas reaches X...
I dont think its so much the price of fuel that drives the sale of hybrids. Dealers have been ripping folks off bad here. Five bucks a gallon and Dealers want msrp,,, folks wont buy them. They will look at anything else at that point. Except Tulsans... there idiots. The old I got oil money tude. But there a small click over all for NE Oklahoma.
We went to Bartlesville north of Tulsa fifty miles to get our Accord. 316 above invoice,, no haggle, paper work and out. Bought the car over the phone. We will buy our next honda there. Hybrid or Civic Coupe or Accord LX-se, havent made our mind up yet.
The worst offender here is Jim Norton Toyota. If they can get you over msrp they will. And all the others are the same in the state. Just bend yeah over.. Yoys,, good cars,, dealer suck bad..
I myself will never pay msrp for a car. I dont care if it makes its own gas!! I think honda and toyota have alot of unsold hybrids here in tulsa there setting on with msrp prices. The dealer we bought from dosent have any left.
To pay 21.5k for a car thats truley worth 18k new is stupid. and before you go and jump me.. Im in sales, support, warrenty for a company that sells boilers, chillers, pumps, steam control and such. If we sold our wares like car dealers we wouldnt sell anything.
We went to Bartlesville north of Tulsa fifty miles to get our Accord. 316 above invoice,, no haggle, paper work and out. Bought the car over the phone. We will buy our next honda there. Hybrid or Civic Coupe or Accord LX-se, havent made our mind up yet.
The worst offender here is Jim Norton Toyota. If they can get you over msrp they will. And all the others are the same in the state. Just bend yeah over.. Yoys,, good cars,, dealer suck bad..
I myself will never pay msrp for a car. I dont care if it makes its own gas!! I think honda and toyota have alot of unsold hybrids here in tulsa there setting on with msrp prices. The dealer we bought from dosent have any left.
To pay 21.5k for a car thats truley worth 18k new is stupid. and before you go and jump me.. Im in sales, support, warrenty for a company that sells boilers, chillers, pumps, steam control and such. If we sold our wares like car dealers we wouldnt sell anything.
Thread
Topic Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
rperla
Ford Escape Hybrid
5
08-29-2011 04:02 PM
sharpie
Honda Insight
5
03-17-2007 11:07 AM
