We own an Echo and ours cost $14,200 in 2001 because my wife insisted on an automatic transmission, electric locks and other creature comforts. That additional $3,000 is proportional to the extra 'eye candy' that is standard in the Toyota hybrids.

My point is you you really have to compare equivalent features in the gas and hybrid vehicle or you might as well choose a worn-out, run-down, AMC Pacer for the gas model and add the most expensive options package to the hybrid. That is exactly what using an "$11,000 Echo" as the comparison accomplishes.

Bob Wilson

 

Just last year I purchased a new Elantra for $12,000 and it is a pretty darn nice car. The fit and finish of some parts like the door pulls are not up to Honda standards but the Elantra is not all that much of a step down from a Civic. The standard features are pretty darn similar except the Elantra lacks abs and is not a hybrid of course. The Elantra has quite a bit more power, which makes up for some other shortcomings. Both cars are manuals so a comparison is fair, is it not?

Anyway the truth is that hybrids are over priced toys. I love my hybrid but lets get real and admit that they are not really saving money.

Elantra standard features:

Folding Center/Rear Seats 2.0L I4 DOHC 16V FI Engine
15 Inch Wheels 5-Speed Manual Transmission
Clock Tachometer
Steel Wheels Driver and Passenger Front Airbags
Front Side Airbags Anti-Theft Alarm System
5 Passenger Seating Cloth Seats
Front Bucket Seats Rear Bench Seat
Front Center Console With Storage Power Steering
Remote Trunk Release Tilt Steering Wheel
Air Conditioning Single-Zone Climate Control
Intermittent Windshield Wipers Power Windows
Rear Defogger Remote Power Door Locks
Heated Exterior Mirrors Power Exterior Mirrors
AM/FM/Cassette Audio System

 

You got a great deal last year.
I went to list the standard features of the Hyundai Elantra at:
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/el...ecs/specs.aspx

I also used the following Honda cite:
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/...e=Civic+Hybrid

Today, the least expensive model, the GLS lists for $14,065. Did you pay list?

Regardless, I started comparing the Elantra models at that web site to the Honda Civic Hybrid options just to make sure we were comparing features-to-features. The first discovery was I had to go GT, $15,415 to match the alloy wheels. Then I added: automatic transmission - $900 and anti-lock braking (ABS) with Traction Control System (TCS) - $1,150.

Off hand:
$15,415 - GT with alloy wheels
$$$$900 - automatic transmission to match CVT
$$1,150 - ABS/TCS to match Honda Civic Hybrid standard ABS/TCS
--------
$17,565 - list, Elantar options to match Honda Civic Hybrid standard equipment

$22,150 - list, Honda Civic Hybrid

It looks to be a $4,585 price difference just using the cited sources, the corporate web pages of Hyunda and Honda.

Did I make a mistake somewhere?

Bob Wilson

 

Yes you did. The first mistake you made was assuming anyone would pay list for a non-hybrid car at a time when companies are/were offering "employee" pricing. I paid list for my Honda and I paid $12,000 for the Elantra. Real world prices. Hybrids are/were a hot ticket and many people are/were paying list or more. Non-hybrids are not so hot and you can get deals all day long.

The second big mistake you make is insisting that a vehicle have an automatic transmission. Neither my Honda nor the Elantra I refer to have automatics. I'm sorry if you or your spouse can't drive a manual. My Vette, my Honda and the woman's Elantra are all manuals.

The third mistake you make is assuming that if given a choice someone would actually want every single option that the Honda has. For example the alloy wheels. Instead of increasing the trim level of the Elantra to the GT you could just have well as slapped on some aftermarket wheels or been happy with the stock steel wheels which don't look bad at all. In fact they may actually look better than the the funny looking hybrid wheels.

My Honda lacks Traction Control. Perhaps the new ones have it but my comparison is based a year or two ago when I actually purchased both cars.

Did you add extra cost to the Honda column to account for the higher power engine? How about adding extra cost to the Honda column to make up the difference in warranty? Does the Honda have 10 year 100,000 mile powertrain coverage? How about 5 year 60,000 mile bumper to bumper? 5 year unlimited roadside assistance? How much is that stuff worth? Would you rather have fancy wheels or a great warranty?

What do you think of the stock Elantra wheels anyway? Here is a pic:



You could say my comparison is dated and you would be correct. Your comparison is newer but is still flawed in several of the ways I mentioned above. Even if I give you the automatic tranny you still have the power, the lack of ability to get a deal on a hybrid and the warranty. I'd accept Edmund's true market price on both cars over list if you would like to try again.

 

Found some brand new alloy wheels at tire rack for $84 a piece. 4 shipped is $370.

http://www.tirerack.com/servlet/Call...rSpecial=false

I also looked up what we paid for the Elantra and came up with $11,998 out the door!

EDIT:

Looked up the HCH too for giggles. Paid $19, 815 real close to $8k difference.

 

Let me take a stab at it (Pricing is Edmunds TMV):

Elantra GLS Edmunds TMV with automatic tranny including ABS/TC, spoiler, floor mats, trunk net, $600 desination charge and $1000 rebate:

$15,444

Add $370 for alloy wheels from "tire rack" and you get a total of

$15,814

Now the Honda Hybrid....

TMV is more than list right now at $23,320 (base model, no navi) including $595 destination, no rebate available.

Now add perhaps $500 for a longer warranty and we will even throw the more powerful engine of the Elantra in for free just to make it all the more fair and you get $23,820 for the new HCH.

The difference is $23,820 minus $15,814 or $8006

If you give me the manual back (which I personally prefer), the difference is more like $9000. That will buy a lot of gas....

 

I'm a little surprised you said that after all the endless debate this topic has received on this forum. Hybrid or not, the "success" of ANY car purchase can only be measured against the criteria of the buyer. No other opinon matters. If it's worth it to the buyer, then it's a good decision - end of discussion. My Civic does save me money, when compared to the other cars I was considering buying, and the one I was currently driving. It's not fair to criticize a hybrid because it's so much more expensive than a $9K Kia. On an absolute scale like that, any car over $15K becomes an unnecessary toy, hybrid or not.

If I was interested in an expensive toy, believe me, I would NOT be driving a Honda Civic.

 

1) "The Deal' - in a world where all prices are negotiable, there will always be someone who gets a great deal . . . I always run into them within two weeks of buying anything. So I tend to go by what the manufacture asks as the starting place. Now in the case of the Prius, the dealers have been marking them up, on top of MSRP.

2) "Automatic" - it is a question of comparing simular features. I couldn't find a manual transmission hybrid.

3) "Options" - absolutely, no one in their right mind would want every piece of eye-candy put on hybrids. Unfortunately, there is no price relief if you ask for the standard parts to be taken off. So you are left with adding onto the gas vehicle those features that match, as close as possible, what is standard on the hybrid. Would you do it in 'real life,' no, but to not match features goes back to relaxing the matching to a used <piece_of_dung> model to a 'pimped out' hybrid. At least put in enough on the gas car to make it come close (aka., electric locks and windows.)

4) Feature sets change so I had to use what was readily available, the current web pages from both manufacturers.

5) I didn't look at the engine. Good point. As for warrantees, well I'm hard core DIY so I look at them with amusement.

6) Alloy wheels, manufacturer or 3d party? Well it comes down to whether or not we are comparing manufacturer vehicles or do let others 'get into the act.' I'm easy as long as it is well defined.

Truth be told, I am not a Honda advocate and am probably the wrong one to try an make such comparisions. Apparently, since the engines don't match, the Elantra is the wrong vehicle to compare to the HCH. I didn't catch that but I wasn't really looking that closely either.

From my side of the fence, I like to start with identical displacement ICE and then treat everything else as elements that need to be matched one-to-one, engine-to-pavement. That means everything from transmission, wheels, audio, heating/airconditioning, seats, trim and anything else that could match. You'll never reach exact parity but you can come close. Then you have an apples-to-apples comparison. This is discipline critical to good engineering.

Bob Wilson

 

The Elantra is a lotta car for the money, but it isn't really comparable to a HCH (1 or 2) or a Prius 2 with the airbag pk. An airbag Prius can be bought for the same $$-$23700 the base HCH 2 in your example goes for.
If you subtract the $3150 TC the difference is $5000(same story with the HCH 2). The Hybrids double the Elantra's mpg(20 vs 40mpg- more or less)-so it is 5000 gallons/100,000 vs 2500/100,000 miles. 2500 gallons is about $7500 at current prices.
Even ignoring the T Credit you will be very close at 100,000 miles. The insurance, and the $$ you would have made on the $8000 will favor the Elantra, but the resale on 100,000 mile Hondas and Toyotas is much, much, much better than the resale on any Hyundai.
There is good reason to think the TCO will only slightly favor the Elantra at 100,000 miles. Resale-future resale- is always a guess- but most folks would feel comfortable guessing that a Prius or HCH will be worth double a Elantra($3000 vs $6000 maybe).This will shift the TCO in favor of the Hybrids.
Of course, we have to ignore the $3100 TC to make it close, and we have to assume gasoline will remain at $3/gal to keep it close. The Hybrids will drop in price once the TC expires-that will make it closer still.
If you don't pay too much for your Prius/HCH 2, TCO will probably favor the hybrids at 100,000 miles even against a very inexpensive car like the Elantra. Now, if the cost is the same, who would choose a Hyundai over a Toyota/Honda??
Of course, I'm assuming that the Hybrids will be worth much more than the Elantra in 8 years. Hey, maybe they will be known as transmission eaters 8 years from now, and you won't be able to give them away??!!
We'll see.Charlie

 

Good points but if we start getting into TCO at 100,000 miles we then must look at the issue of hybrid battery replacement. If you really want to get picky you should look at intrest on the $8K difference between the cars as well.

I did fail to mention the small hybrid tax credit I recieved and/or what ever tax incentives are currently available.

That maybe in the future stuff cuts both ways. Any number of things could go wrong with a hybrid or non-hybrid. However please notice that the Elantra has a 10 year 100,000 mile power train warranty so you are covered if it becomes a "transmission eater"

I'm telling you the Elantra is a darn nice car for the money and that I personally made a mistake if cost was the only factor, which of course it is not. In addition to the Elantra advantages I've already mentioned the Elantra rides smoother and has less rattles going over bumps, plus it has better on center tracking making it easier to drive on the highway.