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Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
The non-profit group Informed for Life (www.informedforlife.org) has just released its combined RISK scores for many 2006 model-year vehicles. The group's RISK scores use a calculated composite of NHTSA and IIHS crash ratings, weighted according to actual fatality risk in accidents, along with known factors that raise the fatality risk in vehicles, like weight, the presence of stability control, and the presence of a side-curtain airbag. Although the group isn't yet well known to consumers or industry insiders, it's filling a gap in the availability of straightforward crash ratings. "So far, it's been a purely personal effort on my part," said the group's president, Michael Dulburger, a Conn. mechanical engineer who started the project about five years ago when he was shopping for a new car and found that none of the established crash-ratings systems corresponded to actual injury or fatality risk. When considering the purchase of a Ford F-150, he found that NHTSA gave the truck a five-star crash rating; he was later amazed to find out that the IIHS had ranked it 'poor.' Without any professional ties to the auto industry, Dulburger set out to devise his own system; since then, he's been funding the project himself - and devoting much of his spare time to entering data and honing a system that would better correlate with real-world statistics. After poring over actual crash data and what existing ratings meant, he saw some glaring deficiencies that rendered some aspects of either IIHS or NHTSA ratings meaningless to a typical consumer. "Even within each source they don't really tell you how to apportion your concern," said Dulberger, who pointed out that rear impacts account for only three percent of all fatalities, while they're given what appears to be equal footing in their ratings. On the other hand, frontal impacts account for 43 percent of fatalities, rollovers 28 percent, and side impacts 26 percent, according to NHTSA. "The IIHS still doesn't even look at rollover. And when you look at the NHTSA side-impact ratings, they mention that they don't consider head injuries. What good is that?" "The NHTSA also tells you that you shouldn't compare vehicle ratings in different weight classes. But that's not the way that people shop for vehicles… And the full ratings range isn't even used - for instance with NHTSA almost every car is four or five stars," commented Dulburger, who referred to a 30:1 fatality spread from the model with the highest fatality rate to that with the lowest, according to NHTSA. "There are 117 traffic fatalities a day in the U.S. What you're in makes a huge difference. If we could stay away from the models with the worst fatality rates, we'd greatly affect that number." "Automakers have figured out that safety is a selling point," said Dulburger, who referred to the frequent mention of crash ratings in ads. "Five stars is such a small part of the overall picture. You need to be looking at so much more." Dulburger admits that the group's system doesn't take into account other factors like the varying demographics and driving attitudes of buyers for each model, but he said that it's the closest match to how the cars protect in real-world crashes. The combined RISK scores are now indexed for 2006 so that 100 represents the fatality-weighted average - the lower the score, the better. See the Web site for complete details of how the scores are calculated. Below are the best and worst of '06, according to the system. -Bengt Halvorson Lowest RISK scores: Acura RL - 56 Lincoln Town Car - 58 Volvo S80 - 61 Acura TL - 62 Acura MDX - 66 Ford Crown Victoria - 66 Mercury Grand Marquis - 66 Mitsubishi Galant - 66 Lincoln LS - 68 Acura TSX - 68 Highest RISK scores: Honda Insight - 167 Scion xA - 158 Mazda B-Series - 152 Ford Ranger - 152 Toyota Tundra - 150 Toyota Tacoma - 149 Ford Focus - 149 Nissan Sentra - 148 Nissan Frontier - 148 Kia Spectra - 146 http://www.informedforlife.org/ |
Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
That site makes my head hurt. I'm a young guy, and I felt that the font size was far too small.
I'm guessing he's comparing base models, he lists the FEH 4WD as not having side curtain airbags, which I've got. It also seems that he likes to bump up the hybrids danger rating compared to non-hybrid versions. I don't really understand why a FEH and an Escape have a 3 or so point difference. |
....then there are statistics
Originally Posted by Benjamin Disraeli
There are lies, **** lies, and statictics
I'll conceed that the Insight is lighter armored against nearly any other vehicle on the road today. A common theme here is driver alertness is the biggest safety factor
BTW, did this study evaluate the tip-over hazard? Keith Bradshier discusses this in High and Mighty. A few months ago I spun out at 60 mph - very scary. If it happened to me again would I rather be in a Ford Excursion than a Honda Insight? Noooo! Another note: That Ford Excursion is a lot more likely to kill the other guy in a collision than an Insight. It's more than the obvious weight advantage. There is a height advantage, too. Trucks aren't required to crumble like cars to absorb the impact - a hazard to both vehicles in a collision. It's a sad commentary that many people want to drive 6000-8000 pounds to supposedly protect themselves, comfortable with the fact they are a lot more likely to kill the other guy in a wreck. What a lovely conscious! :angry: |
Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
The numbers are partially based on real-world traffic death rate data, which is subject to variance. It's possible that the hybrid versions of many vehicles are sold in higher numbers in inherently more dangerous places. Kind of like how many minivans outscore sedans even though minivans handle worse and are more likely to roll over. Fact is, once you get real-world data involved, the average minivan driver is much more safe and conservative than the average sedan driver, hence the reason why you see differences.
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Re: ....then there are statistics
Originally Posted by Delta Flyer
All you football fans know that Tom Brady does not have the best passing statictics, nor does he have the strongest arm. Of course passing is not and end it itself, but to win games. That's what Tom Brady does best win games, esp. in pressure situations.
I'll conceed that the Insight is lighter armored against nearly any other vehicle on the road today. A common theme here is driver alertness is the biggest safety factor
BTW, did this study evaluate the tip-over hazard? Keith Bradshier discusses this in High and Mighty. A few months ago I spun out at 60 mph - very scary. If it happened to me again would I rather be in a Ford Excursion than a Honda Insight? Noooo! Another note: That Ford Excursion is a lot more likely to kill the other guy in a collision than an Insight. It's more than the obvious weight advantage. There is a height advantage, too. Trucks aren't required to crumble like cars to absorb the impact - a hazard to both vehicles in a collision. It's a sad commentary that many people want to drive 6000-8000 pounds to supposedly protect themselves, comfortable with the fact they are a lot more likely to kill the other guy in a wreck. What a lovely conscious! :angry: |
The SUV Block
Keith Bradshier has already pointed out in High and Mighty that it's harder to see around SUV's in traffic.
Now check out this CNN article about SUVs backing into children on driveways. How I wish I'd read this book when we were discussing safety - size did not save the dinosaurs!!! |
Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
I have been looking for a long time (about a year) and have only found one fatality in an Insight. Just trying to see how safe of a car it REALLY in. Heard MUCH more positive stories than negative. Quite a few about how they were hit hard enough the car was totaled but felt in any other car they would of been toast - a few said they'd buy an Insight to replace the one that was totaled.
As far as being safe in the car, I drive with my headlights on normally. My car blends right in with the grass on either side of the road around (the color) here so quite often I have people pull out right in front of me :omg:. I can see the same problem with the Silver Insights too. I still feel very safe in the car - and at least once a week the question is asked about "How safe is it?". |
Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
i'd quess a lot of the reason that guy rated it so low is the insight is so light weight. another thing is there aren't that many out there so if one person dies it's a greater percentage of owners.
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Go Back a Few Decades...
If you want to talk about unsafe subcompacts, consider the original VW Beetle. Many safety improvements have been made, not the least of them airbags. Add to that rack-and-pinion steering, disk brakes, safety glass....safety standards are a lot better.
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Re: ....then there are statistics
Originally Posted by Delta Flyer
A few months ago I spun out at 60 mph - very scary. If it happened to me again would I rather be in a Ford Excursion than a Honda Insight? Noooo!
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Re: ....then there are statistics
Originally Posted by Delta Flyer
If you want to talk about unsafe subcompacts, consider the original VW Beetle. Many safety improvements have been made, not the least of them airbags. Add to that rack-and-pinion steering, disk brakes, safety glass....safety standards are a lot better.
https://www.greenhybrid.com/share/fi...2/4/beetle.jpg
Originally Posted by basjoos
Another thing that most people don't seem to realize is that the lighter vehicle is much easier to control in a skid, since it has less enertia. I can throw my 2100lbs Honda civic hatch into skids and recover from skids on icy roads all day long with no problems, but if I got into a skid in the Isuzu Trooper and F-150 that I have owned in the past, I was pretty much along for the ride. Skid recovery in these heavier vehicles was more a matter of luck than control. When driving my Civic on icy roads, I can see vehicles around me skidding our of control into the ditch and into each other, whereas when things get a little squirrely on a slick spot, I can easily recover and keep on going. I typically can travel at least 10mph faster than the typical heavier vehicle on black ice with complete control. It gives my a perverse pleasure to watch when the SUV (EGO-mobile) driver I have passed tries to match my speed and spins off into the ditch.
Now the Insight unfortunately has little 13x4.5" wheels or something, bicycle size tires that are often overinflated, not to mention they're low grip LRR tires, the rear track is MUCH narrower than the front, so in order to keep it from oversteering like crazy, it has very low cornering limits compared to something like the Civic, for example. I still think the Insight is an extremely cool car, but it has none of the handling virtues that a similar weight Civic with equal front/rear track and big meaty tires has. |
Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
I had a 1988 CRX HF - the closest thing to an Insight. The HF had the narrowest tires of the CRXs and would be hazardous on slick roads. Strangely, I have not had that problem on the Insight.
Oh, and the Airbag Hazard.... A defensive driver instructor was trying to scare me into sitting as far from the steering wheel as possible. The first airbags deployed at 195mph - they now go at 110mph. I'm still not convinced that you need over three feet from the steering wheel. He was telling the class that the airbag could tear your face off, so I might look like this. :omg: ....or maybe that would be cool. :D |
Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
On the topic of airbags, yeah, the original federal requirement is that they stop an unbelted person. You have to deploy REAL fast to do that. Now the requirement says belted passengers. I don't know if you've ever watched those NHTSA or IIHS crash videos, but you STILL get thrown pretty far in a severe wreck, even with belts, but the rate is far, far slower than unbelted, hence the ability to use less dangerous airbags with a smaller explosive charge. I'm blessed with long arms and legs, so sitting far from the wheel is easy for me, but I have plenty of female friends barely over 5 feet tall that I hope are never in a frontal car wreck, to be honest.
Back on the topic of skinny tires and Honda's high FE vehicles, that reminds me of why I stopped using my HX's original 14" wheels. I could never find any tires for them that gripped enough for me to be satisfied with. I realize that 195/55-15's on 15x6" wheels are not ideal for FE, but my safety comes first! I feel unsafe enough as it is driving a nearly 9 year old car that's been replaced twice by Honda now, so I like to at least know I have lots of available traction for braking and emergency lane changes. Tires play a big role in FE, but to me, I'd rather run an overinflated high grip tire than any LRR or all-seasons. |
Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
Well... The Insight *is* a pretty tiny car. If it gets hit by an H2, the car and driver are pretty much toast.
That being said, I personally have never seen an Insight actually involved in a car accident. I believe that the people who buy Insights are completely aware of the risks and benefits of their choice. Driving such a small car does require highly developed defensive driving skills -- which these drivers obviously have. My observation of SUV drivers, on the other hand, tell me that these folk are either (but not mutually exclusively so) less skilled, less aware, or willing to take unnecessary driving risks. Most multi-car pile-ups I've seen involve at least one SUV -- usually a rear-end collision in which the land-yacht driver was tailgating and couldn't stop in time to avoid the accident. |
Re: ....then there are statistics
It's sad that SUVs and pickup trucks can get out of the bumper height requirements... thus meaning that in a side impace their bumper goes straight into your face.
Originally Posted by Delta Flyer
It's a sad commentary that many people want to drive 6000-8000 pounds to supposedly protect themselves, comfortable with the fact they are a lot more likely to kill the other guy in a wreck. What a lovely conscious! :angry:
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Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
Hi All:
___Very interesting thread … ___I have been following the Insight for ~ 4 + years and for the life of me, I do not remember anyone getting killed or even seriously injured in one? I know there are less then a few thousand on the road but still … I remember seeing a site with driver death statistics and if anyone has it handy, please post so the rest of us can do some investigating of our own. ___Thanks in advance. ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
Hi Wayne,
After this thread started I searched for the newspaper article I found where a woman had died in an Insight. This was about 8 months ago and I don't think the article was much older than that. They also had a picture of the car which didn't look all that bad, I don't remember the specifics, was the seat belt on? did the airbags deploy? If memory serves correct the color of the car was blue and the newspaper was some "small town" newspaper. AL |
Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
Hi Rigger:
___Thank you … Sorry to hear about the Insight owner however :( ___Good Luck ___Wayne R. Gerdes |
Re: ....then there are statistics
Originally Posted by blueskies
It's sad that SUVs and pickup trucks can get out of the bumper height requirements... thus meaning that in a side impace their bumper goes straight into your face.
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Re: ....then there are statistics
^^^AAAHH!!!
my dad wasn't too keen on the insight, because it's so small. |
large pickups very poorly rated.
I noticed that according to this large pickups are some of the most dangerous vehicles on the road(to the driver and passengers) .A 2006 Titan got a 137(for some reason a 2005 got a 101?). All the pickup extra risk is from rollover risk.If the rollover risk were average they would be safer than average.
I would guess that many rollovers are single vehicle accidents.If most of your driving is urban suburban interstate pickups are probably fairly safe(later models) because your wreck is going to be with another car on a good road with a wide ,flat shoulder.If you drive in rural areas with roads that have very little shoulder then the risk of rolling over is much higher...This is the typical pickup "death" accident-dropping off the shoulder and flipping it at 60 mph.These single vehicle accidents are almost completely under the drivers control. .Driving carefully will decrease a pickup drivers risk more than it will drop an small vehicle drivers risk.Charlie |
Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
I admire the intent this website has, and I recognize that it is very difficult to come up a single accurate index. BUT, he has a lot of problems with missing data. Missing data is handled by assigning the car some average value for cars in its class, so a vehicle that is much worse than average in some parameter (e.g. Chevy Blazers and rollover) will get a better score than it ought to. A car that is better than the average of its class will get a worse score than it ought to (e.g., I believe that the Insight would very rarely rollover). Weight class is a big factor in the Insight's poor score, and again, this is penalizing the Insight for the Yugo's dangers. Also, for 2006 there are a lot of cars missing.
There are also inadequacies in the source data he uses (crash tests, etc.). For example, Ford Pintos tended to have the front axle fall off; also their gas tanks had a tendency to explode. None of these problems would show up in any of his data. I would prefer to start out looking at The Institute for Highway Safety's (iihs.org) report on "The Risk of Dying in One Vehicle vs another" Unfortunately, they don't list most of the cars we would be interested in (Prius, Insight, etc) unless there is a non-hybrid version. You're about 5 times more likely to die in a Chevy Blazer than in a Honda Civic!! --Walter PS Handling is more a function of suspension design than weight; my 1962 Buick Skylark station wagon (2 bedroom + sunporch version) handled reasonably well if you had a wide road. PPS Somebody in insightcentral.com has been running his insight in autocrosses. |
Large Sedans are Safest
Forgot the name of the organization, but if safety is your paramount concern a large sedan is your choice. It has size and a low rollover hazard. Some might say it's what retired folks drive and it favorably skews the ratings.
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Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
"Although the group isn't yet well known to consumers or industry insiders..."
There is probably a reason for this. If the Volvo were the vehicle of choice for Crack Dealers it would fare differently in the stats too. Statistics are funny little things. Before I bought my Insight I drove a Blazer. I felt more at risk in it than I ever have in my Insight. Every car is out-classed by something on the road. You control your fate. Drive safely and you will more than compensate for the weight/size differential. |
Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
It's not line anyone buys an Insight for that well-armored feeling of Road King invulnerability. Someone who buys this kind of car is already aware of the strengths and weakness A-Class vehicles. Funny, you never heard about the Pontiac Fiero being called a "dangerous" car, although it was even more of a death-box than the Insight, but nobody noticed because the Fiero was a sports car and the Insight was a greenie car.
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Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
I'm still waiting for someone to point out an Insight fatality at http://www.nhtsa.gov/ (they record all auto deaths by make - don't know about the neutrality or funding of www.informedforlife.org )
Bottom line is the accident record on the roads - more than two Insight fatalities would be above average. Strange nobody has provided a link of such. |
Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
One of the main reasons they don't sell the Insight anymore is that they couldn't keep up with the safety regs. I'm not surprised it does poorly in safety assessment against newer cars -- the design is from the 90s and things have changed a lot since then.
A small car isn't necessarily unsafe -- witness the high safety rating of the Acura TSX from the original post and, conversely, the poor performance of the enormous Tundra -- but a *very* small, lightweight car with a ten-year-old design is bound to come up short. Ryan |
Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
Originally Posted by Rspaight
(Post 142680)
One of the main reasons they don't sell the Insight anymore is that they couldn't keep up with the safety regs. I'm not surprised it does poorly in safety assessment against newer cars -- the design is from the 90s and things have changed a lot since then.
A small car isn't necessarily unsafe -- witness the high safety rating of the Acura TSX from the original post and, conversely, the poor performance of the enormous Tundra -- but a *very* small, lightweight car with a ten-year-old design is bound to come up short. Ryan While they did not expect a lot of sales, it was less than Honda expected. Finally, there was a requirement for side airbags and Honda did not want to bother. I have seen several crash pictures with front and back totally anniliated, but the driver has minor injuries at most. msantos might shed some light on this... |
Re: Honda Insight Most Deadly Car in America
Originally Posted by Delta Flyer
(Post 142684)
Honda could have easily upgraded the Insight if they wanted to, but it was a halo car - a statement of the ultimate fuel mizer.
While they did not expect a lot of sales, it was less than Honda expected. Finally, there was a requirement for side airbags and Honda did not want to bother. I have seen several crash pictures with front and back totally anniliated, but the driver has minor injuries at most. msantos might shed some light on this... Vtec.net's model matrix has a new "family" hybrid penciled in for 2009, which sounds about right. Ryan |
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